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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: Nancy Pelosi announces formal impeachment inquiry

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FULL TRANSCRIPT: Nancy Pelosi announces formal impeachment inquiry transcript powered by Sonix—the best video to text transcription service

FULL TRANSCRIPT: Nancy Pelosi announces formal impeachment inquiry was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your video to text in 2019.

Nancy Pelosi:
Good afternoon. Last Tuesday, we observed the anniversary of the adoption of the Constitution on September 17th. Sadly on that day, the intelligence community inspector general formally notified the Congress that the administration was forbidding him from turning over a whistle blower complaint. On Constitution Day. This is a violation of the law.

Nancy Pelosi:
Shortly thereafter, press reports began to break of a phone call by the President of the United States calling upon a foreign power to intervene in his election. This is a breach of his constitutional responsibilities.

Nancy Pelosi:
The facts are these. The intelligence community inspector general, who was appointed by President Trump, determined that the complaint is both of urgent concern and credible. And its disclosure, he went on to say, relates to one of the most significant important of the director of national intelligence and his responsibility to the American people.

Nancy Pelosi:
On Thursday, the inspector general testified before the House Intelligence Committee stating that the acting director of national intelligence blocked him from disclosing the whistleblower complaint. This is a violation of law. The law is unequivocal. The DNI staff. It says DNI DNI, director of National Intelligence shall provide Congress the full whistleblower complaint.

Nancy Pelosi:
For more than 25 years, I've served on the Intelligence Committee as a member, as the ranking member as part of the gang of four, even before I was in the leadership. I was there when we created the office of the Director of National Intelligence. That did not exist before 2004. I was there even earlier in the 90s when we wrote the whistleblower laws and continue to write them to improve them, to ensure the security of our intelligence and the safety of whistleblowers.

Nancy Pelosi:
I know what their purpose was and we proceeded with balance and caution as we wrote the laws. I can say with authority, the Trump administration's actions undermine both our national security and our intelligence and our protections of the whistleblowers more than both.

Nancy Pelosi:
This Thursday, the acting DNI will appear before the House Intelligence Committee at that time. He must turn over the whistleblowers full complaint to the committee. He will have to choose whether to break the law or honor his responsibility to the Constitution.

Nancy Pelosi:
On the final day of the Constitutional Convention in 1787, when our Constitution was adopted, Americans gather on the steps of Independence Hall to await the news of the government our founders had crafted. They asked Benjamin Franklin, What do we have? A republic or a monarchy? Franklin replied a republic, if you can keep it. Our responsibility is to keep it.

Nancy Pelosi:
Republican doors, because of the wisdom of our Constitution, enshrined in three coequal branches of government serving as checks and balances on each other. The actions taken to date by the President have seriously violated the Constitution, especially when the president says. Article 2 says, I can do whatever I want.

Nancy Pelosi:
For the past several months, we have been investigating and our committees and litigating in the courts. So the House can gather all the relevant facts and consider whether to exercise its full Article 1 powers, including a constitutional power of the utmost gravity. Approval of articles of impeachment.

Nancy Pelosi:
And this week, the president has admitted to asking the president of Ukraine to take actions which would benefit him politically. The action of the Trump, the actions of the Trump presidency revealed dishonorable fact of the president's betrayal, of his oath of office, betrayal of our national security and betrayal of the integrity of our elections.

Nancy Pelosi:
Therefore, today, I'm announcing the House of Representatives moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry. I'm directing our six committees to proceed with their investigations under that umbrella of impeachment inquiry. The president must be held accountable. No one is above the law.

Nancy Pelosi:
Getting back for our founders. In the darkest days of the American Revolution, Thomas Paine wrote, the times have found us. The times found them to fight for and establish our democracy. The times have found us today. Not to place ourselves in the same category of greatness as our founders. But to place us in the urgency of protecting and defending our Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And the words of Ben Franklin to keep our republic.

Nancy Pelosi:
I thank our chairman, chairman, chairman, Nather, chairman, Schiff for another judiciary chairmanship of intelligence, chairman Engle of Foreign Affairs, Chairman Cummings of Oversight and Chairman Cummings, I've been in touch with constantly. He is the master of of so much, but including inspectors general and and whistleblowers. Congresswoman Richie Neal of the of the Ways and Means Committee, Congresswoman Maxine Waters of the Financial Services Committee. And I commend all of our members, our colleagues, for their thoughtful, thoughtful approach to all of this, for their careful statements.

Nancy Pelosi:
God bless them and God bless America. Thank you.

Anonymous:
Now, of course, you've been convicted by the Senate. What does this accomplish? If the Senate doesn't convict?

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Popular Transcripts The 4th edition of “Phireside with Phil”, Justin Thomas threw shade at Phil Mickelson

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The 4th edition of "Phireside with Phil", Justin Thomas threw shade at Phil Mickelson transcript powered by Sonix—the best video to text transcription service

The 4th edition of "Phireside with Phil", Justin Thomas threw shade at Phil Mickelson was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your video to text in 2019.

Phil Mickleson:
Welcome to another edition of Phireside with Phil with my special guest, JT, when we played together before he was known as JT. He was just Justin. You have a story to share.

Justin Thomas:
I do Phil. It was the 2014 U.S. Open at Pinehurst. I was on the web.com, now the KornFerry tour at the time. So the crowds are a little overwhelming, to start, but we had a little match, myself and Jordan, versus you and Ricky and kind of just came right into the lion's den.

Justin Thomas:
And playing the fourth hole, I forget what the status of the match was, that's irrelevant to the story. But a fourth hole, I think it is. It's a hard dogleg left. I remember do whatever he hit the drive down there, a long iron and the green's kind of sitting in a bowl.

Justin Thomas:
And just to the right of the greens, just a little crevice. And we both hit it right next to each other. Not bad shot, just right of the green. All sloped away from us. Couldn't really figure out. I couldn't figure out how to play it. If I wanted to kind of skip one and spin and go up, putt it whatever. Tight, sandy, grainy…how Pinehurst is.

I decide to putt it. Hit a nice putt up there about like this far. You go after me and bones at the time. Look right at him. He's just grabbed the 64. It took a full swing. Just took a full earth bunker divot all over the green, straight up in the air, pop down about like this.

Justin Thomas:
Just a little outside of mine. And, you know, like we knew each other, but weren't quite as close as we are now. But I know that you like to talk smack. And I was like, nice shot Phil just a little bit outside of mine.

Justin Thomas:
Without batting an eye, you just look at me. You go, yeah my dad probably would've putted that one, too, and then just walked up there.

Justin Thomas:
I love it when you send shade because it allows me to bring the heat. And you all we all know you don't sit Phireside unless you can handle the heat.

Justin Thomas:
That's exactly right.

Phil Mickleson:
Thanks for being on.

Justin Thomas:
Absolutely.

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: Democratic Primary Debate – Night 2

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Democratic Primary Debate – Night 2 transcript powered by Sonix—the best video to text transcription service

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Dana Bash:
Let's start with opening statements. You will each receive one minute. Mayor Bill de Blasio, please begin.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
To the working people of America, tonight, I bring you a message of hope. We can make change in this country. I know from personal experience it can be done. When I became the mayor of the nation's largest city, I set us on a path of bold change. They said it couldn't be done, but we gave pre-K to every child for free. We got rid of stop and frisk, and we lowered crime. We raised the minimum wage to $15 dollars an hour. Yes, it can be done.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Now, tonight, we have to get to the heart and soul of who we are as Democrats. There are good people on the stage, but there are real differences. Joe Biden told wealthy donors that nothing fundamentally would change if he were president. Kamala Harris said she's not trying to restructure society. Well, I am. For 40 years, working people have taken it on the chin in this country. For 40 years, the rich have gotten richer, and they paid less and less in taxes. It cannot go on this way. When I'm president, we will even up the score, and we will tax the hell out of the wealthy to make this a fairer country and to make sure it's a country that puts working people first.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mayor de Blasio. Senator Michael Bennet.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Thank you. Last week, I saw one of those Trump signs that says, "America, Love it or Leave it." It was on the outside of a church. I love America, and I know we can make it better. Before coming to the Senate, I ran a large urban school district where most of the kids live in poverty. Those kids have exactly the same hopes that I had. Their parents have exactly the same hopes for them that my parents had for me, and that Susan and I have for our three children.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
For the last three years, we've been consumed by a president who, frankly, doesn't give a damn about your kids or mine. Mr. President, kids belong in classrooms, not cages. They deserve something better than a bully in the White House. Let's end this three-ring circus in Washington, and let's make this election about reclaiming our future for our kids and our democracy. Empty promises won't beat Donald Trump. I can.

Dana Bash:
Governor Jay Inslee.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Good evening. I'm Jay Inslee. I am running for president, because the people in this room and the Democrats watching tonight are the last best hope for humanity on this planet. If we make defeating the climate crisis the top priority of the United States, we will have a fighting chance to save ourselves and our children's future. It has to be our top priority. My plan is one of national mobilization, quickly bringing 100-percent clean energy to Americans, creating 8 million good union jobs.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
This is a big, bold, ambitious plan for clean energy for a big, bold, ambitious nation. Middle ground approaches are not enough. We must confront the fossil fuel industry. I've been working on this for 25 years. Now, we know this. We are at a tipping point, and whether we shrink from this challenge or rise to it is the vital question of our time. We, Democrats, believe we can still do big things in this nation. We can defeat the climate crisis. Let's get to work.

Dana Bash:
Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
My grandmother taught me that nothing's impossible. She spent two generations organizing women in Upstate New York. My mother taught me nothing is impossible. She was one of only three women in her law school class and worked with gay couples for basic rights. If you want to get something done, just tell me it's impossible. As a freshman senator, I was told you couldn't repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Even members of my own party told me it wasn't convenient. When are civil rights ever convenient? We stood up to the Pentagon, and we got it done. Not impossible.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
10 years ago, I was told you couldn't pass healthcare for our 9/11 first responders, those heroes who raced up the towers when others were coming down. Even when Congress turned its back on them, we kept fighting. Just last week, we made the 9/11 health bill permanent. Beating Donald Trump, definitely not impossible. We need a nominee who will take on the big fights and win. We need a nominee who doesn't know the meaning of impossible.

Dana Bash:
Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
I love our country. It's why I enlisted after 9/11, why I've served as a soldier for over 16 years, deployed twice to the Middle East, and served in Congress now for almost seven years. I know what patriotism is, and I've known many great patriots throughout my life. Let me tell you this – Donald Trump is not behaving like a patriot.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
As president, I will bring this spirit of real patriotism to the White House, serving the interests of all Americans, not just the rich and powerful. I'll fight for our rights and freedoms of all Americans, upholding these principles in our Constitution upon which our country was founded, fighting for justice and equality for all; fighting for every single American, regardless of race or religion, as we strive towards that more perfect union. As president, I'll bring this unifying spirit of love for country and the soldier's values of service above self to the White House, truly leading a government of, by, and for the people.

Dana Bash:
Secretary Julián Castro.

Sec. Julián Castro:
Thank you, Dana, and good evening. Just a few days ago, we were reminded and inspired by our fellow Americans in Puerto Rico that public service is not fundamentally about any of us. It's about you and your family. I want you to know that if I'm elected president, that I will work hard every single day, so that you and your family can have good healthcare when you need it, so that your children and grandchildren can get a good education so that they can reach their dreams, and that you can have good job opportunities, whether you live here in a big city, like Detroit, or in a small town in our country.

Sec. Julián Castro:
I know we have a wonderful, special nation, but that too many people are struggling. I know what that's like, too. I grew up with a single mom in a poor neighborhood. But like many of you, I don't wanna make America anything again. I don't want us to go backward. We're not going back to the past. We're not going back where we came from. We're gonna move forward. We're gonna make America better than it's ever been in the years to come. Let's do that together.

Dana Bash:
Andrew Yang.

Andrew Yang:
If you've heard anything about me in my campaign, you've heard that someone is running for president who wants to give every American $1,000 dollars a month. I know this may sound like a gimmick, but this is a deeply American idea, from Thomas Paine, to Martin Luther King, to today. Let me tell you why we need to do it and how we pay for it. Why do we need to do it? We already automated away millions of manufacturing jobs. Chances are your job could be next. If you don't believe me, just ask an autoworker here in Detroit.

Andrew Yang:
How do we pay for it? Raise your hand in the crowd, if you've seen stores closing where you live. It is not just you. Amazon is closing 30 percent of America's stores and malls, and paying zero in taxes while doing it. We need to do the opposite of much of what we're doing right now. The opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian man who likes math. So, let me share the math. $1,000 a month for every adult would be $461 million every month right here in Detroit alone. The automation of our jobs is a central challenge facing us today. It is why Donald Trump is our president and any politician not addressing it is failing the American people.

Dana Bash:
Senator Cory Booker.

Sen. Cory Booker:
Thank you, Dana. Last week, the President of the United States attacked an American city, calling it "a disgusting, rat-infested rodent mess." We need a nation that understands that these tired old language, the …

Don Lemon:
Stand by, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
I will stand by.

Don Lemon:
Please stand by. Please continue, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
Thank you very much. Donald Trump, from Charleston, to Baltimore, to even the border, is using the tired old language of demagogues, of fear-mongers, of racists to try to divide our country against its self. We know who Donald Trump is. But in this election, the question is: "Who are we as a people?" We have serious problems in America. We have deep wounds and seriously deeply-rooted challenges.

Sen. Cory Booker:
We desperately need to heal as a nation and move forward, because we know in this country that our fates are united; that we have a common destiny. The call of this election is the call to unite in common cause and common purpose. That's how we will beat Donald Trump. That's how I will beat Donald Trump, and as your president, that's how I will govern and move us forward together.

Dana Bash:
Senator Kamala Harris.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
This is an inflection moment in the history of our country. I think we all know that. This is a moment in time that is requiring us each as individuals and collectively to look in a mirror and ask a question. That question being "Who are we?" I think most of us know that part of the answer to that question is we are better than this. So, this then becomes a moment that we must fight for the best of who we are. And fight, of course, we will. This is not a new fight for us as Americans.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
We have always been prepared to fight for our ideals. We have always been a nation that fights for the best of who we are. I'll tell you. I come from fighters. My parents met when they were active in the civil rights movement. My sister, Maya, and I joke we grew up surrounded by a bunch of adults who spent full-time marching and shouting about this thing called justice. I am prepared to march with you, to fight with you for the best of who we are and to successfully prosecute the case of four more years of Donald Trump and against him.

Dana Bash:
Vice President Joe Biden.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Tonight, I think Democrats are expecting some more engagement here. And I expect we'll get it. I'm running for president to restore the soul of this country. We have a president, as everybody's acknowledged here, that every day is ripping at the social fabric of this country. But no one man has the capacity to rip that apart. It's too strong. We're too good.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Just look at this stage, made up of very diverse people from diverse backgrounds, went on to be mayors, senators, governors, congresswomen, members of the cabinet, and yes, even a vice president. Mr. President, this is America. We are stronger and great because of this diversity, Mr. President. Not in spite of it, Mr. President. So, Mr. President, let's get something straight. We love it. We are not leaving it. We are here to stay. And we're certainly not gonna leave it to you.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Vice President Biden. I wanna start the debate with one of the top priorities for Democratic voters, and that is healthcare. Senator Harris, this week you released a new healthcare plan, which would preserve private insurance and take 10 years to phase in. Vice President Biden's campaign calls your plan "a have-it-every-which-way-approach" and says it's just part of a confusing pattern of equivocating about your healthcare stance. What do you say to that?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
They're probably confused because they've not read it. But the reality is that I have been spending time in this campaign listening to American families, listening to experts, listening to healthcare providers. And what I came away with is a very clear understanding that I needed to create a plan that was responsive to the needs of the American people; responsive to their needs, understanding that insurance companies have been jacking up the prices for far too long, that American families have to be held down by deductibles, and copays, and premiums that can cause them bankruptcy.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I listened to the American families who said four years is just not enough to transition into this new plan, so I devised a plan where it's gonna be 10 years of a transition. I listened to American families who said "I want an option that will be under your Medicare system, that allows a private plan," so I designed a plan where, yes, responsive to the needs of American families, there will be a public plan under my plan for Medicare and a private plan under my plan for Medicare. Because the bottom line is this – we must agree that access to healthcare must be a right and not just a privilege of those who can afford it. And in America today, far too many people – in fact, 30 million people – are going without access to healthcare.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Harris. Vice President Biden, your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
My response is that the senator has had several plans so far. And any time someone tells you you're gonna get something good in 10 years, you should wonder why it takes 10 years. If you notice, there's no talk about the fact that the plan, in 10 years, will cost $3 trillion. You will lose your employer-based insurance. In fact, this is the single most important issue facing the public. To be very blunt and to be very straightforward, you can't beat President Trump with double-talk on this plan.

Dana Bash:
Your response, Senator Harris?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Absolutely. Unfortunately, Vice President Biden, you're just simply inaccurate in what you're describing. The reality is that our plan will bring healthcare to all Americans under a Medicare for All system. Our plan will allow people to start signing up on the first day. Babies will be born into our plan. Right now, four million babies almost are born every day in America- or every year in America. Under our plan, we will ensure that everyone has access to healthcare. Your plan, by contrast, leaves out almost 10 million Americans. So, I think that you should really think about what you're saying, but be reflective and understand that the people of America want access to healthcare and do not want costs to be their barrier to getting it.

Dana Bash:
Senator Harris, thank you. Vice President Biden, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
The plan, no matter how you cut it, cost $3 trillion when it is, in fact, employed, number one. 10 years from now, after two terms of the senator being president, after her time. Secondly, it will require middle class taxes to go up, not down. Thirdly, it will eliminate employer-based insurance. And fourthly, what happens in the meantime?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I'd like to respond. First of all, the cost of doing nothing is far too expensive. Second, we are now paying $3 trillion a year for healthcare in America. Over the next 10 years, it's probably going to be $6 trillion. We must act.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
My plan is about immediately allowing people to sign up and get into coverage. Right now in America, we have seniors who, every day – millions of seniors – are going into the Medicare system, and they are getting full coverage and the kind of coverage they need. All people should have access to healthcare and cost should not be [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Harris. Mayor de Blasio, let's bring you in here. What's your response?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Thank you. I don't know what the Vice President and the Senator are talking about. The folks I talked to about health insurance say that their health insurance isn't working for them. There's tens of millions of Americans who don't even have health insurance, tens of millions more who have health insurance they can barely make work, because of the copays, the deductibles, the premiums, the out-of-pocket expenses.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
There's this mythology that somehow all these folks are in love with their insurance in America. What I hear from union members and from hard-working middle-class people is they wish they had better insurance. They're angry at private insurance companies that skim all the profits off the top and make it impossible for everyday people to get coverage like mental healthcare, dental care-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
-the things that would be full coverage for all Americans.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Vice President Biden, you just heard Mayor de Blasio. He said in the past that Democrats who want to keep the private insurance industry are defending a healthcare system that is not working. What's your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
My response is Obamacare is working. The way to build this and get to it immediately is to build on Obamacare. Go back and do … Take back all the things that Trump took away, provide a public option, meaning every single person in America would be able to buy into the option, if they didn't like their employer plan, or if they're on Medicaid, they'd automatically be in the plan. It would take place immediately, it would move quickly, and it would insure the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans. In the meantime, what happens? Did anybody tell you how much their plans cost? My plan costs $750 billion. That's what it cost. Not $30 trillion.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Senator Gillibrand, you support Medicare for All. How do you feel about Senator Harris continuing to call her health proposal Medicare for All when it includes a far more significant role for private insurance than the bill you co-sponsored?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I think for the viewers in the audience right now, they're at risk of losing the forest through the trees, because the truth is healthcare in America should be a right. When I was a young mother and had Theo as an infant, he had an allergic reaction to eggs and his whole body turned red and puffy. I had to rush him to the emergency room. My heart is palpitating, because I'm worried that his throat will close. I am not worried about not having an insurance card or a credit card in my wallet. I know whatever they're gonna prescribe, whether it's an EpiPen or an inhaler, I can afford it. The truth about healthcare in America today is people can't afford it. They cannot afford-

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
The insurance companies for these plans that rely on insurance companies … I'm sorry. They're for-profit companies. They have an obligation to their shareholders. They pay their CEO millions of dollars. They have to have quarterly profits. They have fat in the system. It's real, and it should be going to healthcare. So let's not lose the forest for the trees. Last, let's not forget what the Republicans are doing. Because the truth is the Republicans and Trump, their whole goal is to take away your healthcare-

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
-to make it harder for you to afford it, even if you have pre-existing conditions.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Gillibrand. Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
In response to Senator Biden about the Affordable Care Act, it is important that you understand that our Medicare for All plan has actually, by the architect of the Obama Affordable Care Act, been described as one of the most effective ways to bring healthcare to all. Kathleen Sebelius has endorsed our plan as being something that will get us to where we need to go. In terms of the point that Senator Gillibrand is raising, I couldn't agree more. Senator Biden, your plan will keep and allow insurance companies to remain with status quo, doing business as usual. That's gonna be about jacking up copays, jacking up deductibles-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-it will still be the situation that people going to an emergency room-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Harris. Vice President Biden, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-have to come out $5,000.

Vice President Joe Biden:
My plan makes the limit of copay to be $1,000, because we further support the ability to buy into the Obamacare plan. Secondly, the idea that this is somehow a bad idea … No one has to keep their private insurance, but if they would like their insurance, they should be able to keep it. Nothing is demanded in my plan that there be private insurance. It says if the 160 million people who have it say they like their employer insurance, they should have a right to have it. If they don't, they can buy into the Biden plan, which is Obamacare-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Thank you. Senator Booker, let me bring you in here. You say you support Medicare for All. You also say you are not going to pull private health insurance from more than 150 million Americans in exchange for a government plan, but that's what Medicare for All would do. So, how do you square that?

Sen. Cory Booker:
First of all, let me just say that the person who's enjoying this debate most right now is Donald Trump, as we pit Democrats against each other, while he is working right now to take away Americans' healthcare. There is a court case working through the system that's going to gut the Affordable Care Act and actually gut protections on preexisting conditions. I was raised by two civil rights parents who told me to always keep your eyes on the prize. And that is that in the United States of America, every Democrat should stand with the belief that everyone should have access to healthcare. That it's a human right.

Sen. Cory Booker:
How we get there, it has to be to end this broken system, because we are on our way, in just a handful of years, of literally spending 20 percent of our economy, one out of every $5 spent on healthcare. And we spend more in every other nation, on everything from MRIs to insulin drugs, multiple more than other countries. So, you wanna know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to work to get us to a point where Medicare for All- where everyone is covered. But this pitting against progressives, against moderates, saying one is unrealistic and the other doesn't care enough, that to me is dividing our party and demoralizing us in face of the real enemy here-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
And I'm gonna keep fighting for that end-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Booker. Congressman Gabbard, what's your response?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
The reality is, right now, we don't have a healthcare system. We have a sick care system. There are far too many people in this country who are sick and unable to get the care that they need, because they cannot afford it. The core of this problem is the fact that big insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies who've been profiting off the backs of sick people have had a seat at the table, writing this legislation.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
Now, Kamala Harris just talked about Kathleen Sebelius, who helped write her bill. This just pointed to the fatal flaw in her proposal. Sebelius works for Medicare Advantage, a private insurance company who will stand to profit under her plan. If we're seeking to really reform our healthcare system, we've got to shut out big insurance and big pharma out of the drafting process, so they cannot continue to profit off the backs of the sick people in this country who are searching and in desperate need of care.

Dana Bash:
Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Unfortunately, Representative Gabbard got it wrong. Kathleen Sebelius did not write my plan. She endorsed it as being one of the plans that is the best to get us to a place where everyone is gonna have access to healthcare in America. When we talk about this- again, I'm gonna go back to Vice President Biden, because your plan does not cover everyone in America by your staff's and your own definition. 10 million people- as many as 10 million people will not have access to healthcare. In 2019, in America, for a Democrat to be running for president with a plan that does not cover everyone, I think is without excuse. Our plan covers everyone and gives people choice.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Senator. Vice President Biden, your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
My plan does- will cover everyone, number one. Number two, the fact is that my plan also calls for controlling drug prices. The biopharma is now where things are gonna go. It's no longer chemicals. It's about all these breakthroughs we have with the whole- excuse me, immune system. What we have to do now is we have to have a forum that sits in the HHS and says, "As you develop a drug, you've gotta come to us and decide what you can sell it for. We will set the price." Secondly, it says that you cannot raise that price beyond the cost of inflation from this point on-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. I wanna bring in Senator Bennet. Last night, on this stage, one of your Democratic rivals suggested that running on Medicare for All would get Donald Trump reelected. Do you agree with that, sir?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I agree that it makes it much more likely. Unlike others on this stage, I've been crystal clear of where I've been for a decade, through two tough races in Colorado. I believe we should finish the job we started with the Affordable Care Act with a public option that gives everybody in this audience the chance to pick for their family whether they want private insurance or public insurance. It requires drug companies to be negotiated with by Medicare and it provides competition.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
That is totally different from the plan that Senator Warren, and Senator Sanders, and Senator Harris have proposed, which would make illegal employer-based health insurance in this country and massively raise taxes on the middle class to the tune of $30 trillion, as Joe Biden said. We don't need to do that. It doesn't make sense for us to take away insurance from half the people in this room and put huge taxes on almost everybody in this room, when we can pass a public option, trust the American people to make the right decision, and have universal healthcare in this country in two years, not 10 years.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Secretary Castro, I want to bring you in [cross talk]

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I need to respond.

Jake Tapper:
-your response. I'll come to you right after Secretary Castro. Secretary Castro?

Sec. Julián Castro:
I know that this is something very personal for all Americans. I grew up with a grandmother that had diabetes, and I watched as her condition got worse and worse. That whole time she had Medicare. I want to strengthen Medicare for the people who are on it, and then expand it to anybody who wants it.

Sec. Julián Castro:
I also believe, though, that if somebody has a private health insurance plan that is strong, that they wanna hold on to, that they should be able to do that. What I don't believe is that the profit motive of big pharma or big insurance companies should ever determine in our great nation whether somebody gets healthcare or not.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Secretary Castro. Senator Harris, Senator Bennet had suggested that you support banning employer-based health insurance. Is that true?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
First of all, with all due respect to my friend, Michael Bennet, my plan does not offer anything that is illegal. What it does is it separates the employer from healthcare, meaning that where you work will not be a- the kind of healthcare you get will not be a function of where you work. I have met so many Americans who stick to a job that they do not like, where they are not prospering, simply because they need the healthcare that that employer provides. It's time that we separate employers from the kind of healthcare people get. Under my plan, we do that, as it relates to the insurance and the pharmaceutical companies who will not be called in and who will not be taken to task by Senator Biden or Senator Bennett's plan-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-we will do that.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Bennet, I want to bring you back.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Senator Harris is my friend, as well. But I have to say, if we can't admit tonight what's in the plan, which is banning employer-based insurance, we're not gonna be able to admit that when Donald Trump is accusing Democrats of doing that, as well. We need to be honest about what's in this plan. It bans employer-based insurance and taxes the middle class to the tune of $30 trillion. Do you know how much that is? That is 70 percent of what the government will collect in taxes over the next 10 years.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
We don't need to do that [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
-Governor Inslee, I'm gonna come to you in a second, but I do wanna-

Sen. Michael Bennet:
-we can have a public option to have universal healthcare in this country.

Jake Tapper:
I do wanna- I do wanna bring in Senator Harris, because he just suggested you were not being honest.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
He … We cannot keep with the Republican talking points on this. You gotta stop. The reality is that what- under my Medicare for All plan, yes, employers are not gonna be able to dictate the kind of healthcare that their employees get. They will be able to make that decision. Private insurance companies and private carriers, if they comply by our rules and play by our rules, will be able to offer those employees healthcare coverage under a private Medicare plan, or they can have the option of a public Medicare plan. But it is misleading to suggest that employees want what their employer is offering only. They want choice, and my plan gives that to them.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Governor Inslee, I want to bring you in. You recently signed a public option into law, which allows Washington state residents to purchase a state-backed plan if they want to, but this may only save families in Washington state as little as five percent off premiums. Is five percent really the kind of relief that the American people need?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
No, we need universal coverage. And I'm proud of our state that has done less squabbling and actually getting things done. And I am proud that we are the first state to offer a publicly sanctioned offer of healthcare to our citizens. I'm also proud that we didn't stop there. We're also the first state that has taken care of our elders, our seniors. We have a looming retirement wave coming up. I'm proud that our state has made them eligible to retire in dignity.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I'm also proud of this, and I think we need to talk more about this as Democrats – it is time to give people adequate mental healthcare in this country. And we are having … We've had some success in integrating mental health with physical health. There's no reason we should distinguish between your physiological and your mental health. The last thing we're doing, I think, it's very instructive for the nation. We know we're being eaten alive by pharmaceutical costs. We've had one of, if not the most innovative way, to drive down pharmaceuticals for life-saving medications in the United States. That's a record of Washington state I'd like take to Washington, D.C..

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Thank you, Governor Inslee. Mr. Yang, I want to bring you in. You support a Medicare for All system. How do you respond to Governor Inslee?

Andrew Yang:
I just want to share a story. When I told my wife I was running for president, you know the first question she asked me? What are we gonna do about our healthcare? That's a true story. It's not just us. Democrats are talking about healthcare in the wrong way. As someone who's run a business, I can tell you flat out, our current healthcare system makes it harder to hire. It makes it harder to treat people well, and give them benefits, and treat them as full-time employees. It makes it harder to switch jobs, as Senator Harris just said, and it's certainly a lot harder to start a business. If we say, "Look, we're gonna get healthcare off the backs of businesses and families," then watch American entrepreneurship recover, and bloom. That's the argument we should be making to the American people.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Yang. Mayor de Blasio?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Yeah. I don't understand why Democrats on this stage are fear-mongering about universal healthcare. It makes no sense. Ask the American people. They are sick of what the pharmaceutical companies are doing to them. Ask them what they feel about the health insurance companies. They feel it's holding back their families, because they can't get the coverage they need. They get a lot of nos. They don't get a lot help from health insurance companies.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Why are we not going to be the party that does something bold, that says we don't need to be dependent on private insurance? We can have a system that actually covers everyone. You know what? Donald Trump won the state of Michigan by saying he was gonna disrupt the status quo. How about we be the party that's gonna disrupt the status quo for working people?

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor, just a 15-second point of clarification. Who are you talking about? Who's fear-mongering?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Certainly, with all due respect to Senator Bennet, what he's saying is absolutely inaccurate about taxes. Americans right now are paying so much money for their healthcare. Ask people about the reality of premiums, deductibles, copays, out-of-pocket expenses.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
That's worse than any tax.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
And people are paying that right now.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Senator Bennet?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
This has nothing to do with Republican talking points or the pharmaceutical industry. This has to do with having faith in the American people that they can make the right decisions for their families, and they can choose a public option. Bernie Sanders, who said last night he wrote the damned bill, and he did, just like I wrote the damned public option bill, is the guy who says it'll cost $32 trillion and that we're gonna have to raise those taxes to pay for it. He says that; Republicans don't say it. Don't try to distract from the truth.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
You can't hide from the truth, here.

Jake Tapper:
I wanna let Mayor Bill de Blasio, and then I'm gonna come to you, Vice President Biden.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
We need to be for universal healthcare.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Senator, if we as Democrats say we're done with private insurance that has only hurt the American people in so many ways; we're gonna give them something that works for their families, full coverage that they can depend on … If we say that, then there's an election. The American people get to decide. The ultimate choice, Senator, is an election. And this should be the party that stands for universal healthcare and says we're not gonna accept anything less. Right now, in America, so many people don't have the healthcare they need. That is a fact. Tens of millions of people, including middle class people-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Give them a chance to make their decision through an election.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Vice President Biden, your response, sir?

Vice President Joe Biden:
This is not a Republican talking point. The Republicans are trying to kill Obamacare. Obamacare took care of 20 million people right off the bat, 100 million people with pre-existing conditions. And in fact, what we got is a public option that, in fact, would allow anybody to buy in. No one has to keep their private insurance. They can buy into this plan, and they can buy into it with $1,000 deductible and never have to pay more than 8.5 percent of their income when they do it. And if they don't have any money, they'll get in free.

Vice President Joe Biden:
So, this idea is a bunch of malarkey, which we're talking about here. The fact of the matter is that there will be a deductible. It will be a deductible on your paycheck. Bernie acknowledges it. Bernie acknowledges it. $30 trillion has to ultimately be paid, and I don't know what math you do in New York, I don't know what math you do in California, but I tell you, that's a lot of money, and there will be a deductible. The deductible will be out of your paycheck, because that's what will be required.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Harris, I want to bring you in here. Your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Yeah. Let's talk about math. Let's talk about math. Let's talk about the fact that the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance companies last year alone profited $72 billion. And that is on the backs of American families. Under your plan, status quo, you do nothing to hold the insurance companies to task for what they have been doing to American families. In America today, diabetes patients, one in four, cannot afford their insulin. In America today-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-for those people who have overdosed from an opioid, there is a syringe that cost $4,000 that will save their life.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
It is immoral. It is untenable-.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-and it must change with Medicare for All.

Jake Tapper:
Your time is up, Senator. Vice President Biden, your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
I have the only plan that limits the ability of insurance companies to charge unreasonable prices, flat out, number one. Number two, we should put some of these insurance executives who would totally oppose my plan in jail for the nine billion opioids they sell out there. They are misrepresenting to the American people what needs be done. And lastly, here's the deal. The deal is let's figure out how this works. We immediately are able to cover everybody who wants to get off of their insurance plan they don't like, no matter what one it is, and buy into a Medicare option. They can buy the gold plan, and they're not going to have to pay- anyway …

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Thank you. Let's move now to immigration, please. Secretary Castro, you think it should no longer be a crime to cross a U.S. border illegally. President Obama's Homeland Security Secretary, Jeh Johnson, whom you served with, says that is a public declaration, that the border is "effectively open to all." How is he wrong?

Sec. Julián Castro:
Thank you for that question. If you elect me president, you're not electing me to follow. You're electing me to lead. Open borders is a right-wing talking point. And frankly, I'm disappointed that some folks, including some folks on this stage, have taken the bait. The only way that we're gonna guarantee that we don't have family separations in this country again is to repeal Section 1325 of the Immigration Nationality Act. That is the law that this president, this administration, is using to incarcerate migrant parents and then physically separate them from their children.

Sec. Julián Castro:
My immigration plan would also make sure that we put undocumented immigrants who haven't committed a serious crime on a pathway to citizenship; that we do a 21st century Marshall Plan with Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala, so that we can get to the root of this challenge, so people can find safety and opportunity at home instead of having to come to the United States. That's how we can be smarter, more effective, and more humane when it comes to immigration policy.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Secretary Castro. Senator Bennet, what's your response?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I disagree that we should decriminalize our border. This is personal for me. My mom is an immigrant, and she was separated from her parents during the Holocaust in Poland. For those reasons, I was part of the Gang of Eight that wrote … I wrote the immigration bill, in 2013 with John McCain, that passed the Senate with 68 votes. That gave a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million undocumented people that are here, that would pass the most progressive DREAM act that had ever been conceived, much less passed on the floor of the Senate, and had $46 billion of border security. Every single Democrat voted for that bill-

Don Lemon:
Senator …

Sen. Michael Bennet:
-and a lot of Republicans. That should be our position.

Don Lemon:
Thank you. Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
That is our position as Democrats.

Don Lemon:
Senator Harris, you have indicated that you don't think it should be a criminal offense punishable by jail to cross the U.S. border illegally. How do you respond to Senator Bennet?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Again, with all due respect. After the last debate, for example, I went to a place in Florida called Homestead. There is a private detention facility being paid for by your taxpayer dollars, a private detention facility that currently houses 2,700 children. And by the way, there were members of us- Julián was there, members of Congress. They would not let us enter the place, members of the United States Congress. So I walked down the road. I climbed a ladder, and I looked over the fence. And I'm going to tell you what I saw. I saw children lined up, single file, based on gender, being walked into barracks. The policies of this administration had been facilitated by laws on the books-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-that allow them to be incarcerated as though they've committed crimes.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
These children have not committed crimes and should be not treated like criminals.

Don Lemon:
Senator Bennet, what's your response?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I think this is one in the end that we agree with. There is not a single person on this stage who, if we were president, would ever separate a child from their parents at the border. And that is what this is … That is what this administration has done in the American people's name. They have turned our border into a symbol of nativist hostility. The symbol of this country before Donald Trump was president was the Statue of Liberty. That should be the symbol of the United States of America, not Donald Trump's words.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator Bennet. Senator Gillibrand, I want to bring you in. What's your response?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I think when you talk about whether there should be a crime, you have to remember who we're talking about. When I was at the Texas border, I visited with women who had fled violence. A woman from El Salvador owned a small business. Gangs came to her and said, "If you don't give us all your money, we're going to kill your family." That's why she fled. Another woman was raped. That's why she fled. So this is who we're talking about. And they're not criminals. So I believe that we should have a civil violation.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
No president before President Trump enforce the law in the way he has enforced it, because he's using it as the crutch to lock up women and children, to separate mothers and babies, to put them behind bars. So I don't think we should have a law on the books that can be so misused. It should be a civil violation and we should make sure that we treat people humanely.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator. Vice President Biden, in the first two years of the Obama administration, nearly 800,000 immigrants were deported, far more than during President Trump's first two years. Would the higher deportation rates resume if you were president?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Absolutely not, number one. Number two, everything landed on the president's desk but locusts. I found that Julián- excuse me, the Secretary, we sat together in many meetings. I never heard him talk about any of this when he was the Secretary.

Don Lemon:
Please be respectful. Please be respectful in the crowd. Please continue. Mr. Vice President.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is- I don't know you can hear. I can hear, but anyway-

Don Lemon:
We can hear fine, Mr. Vice President.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Okay.

Don Lemon:
Please continue, if you will.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is what the senator from New York talked about is seeking asylum. That woman, the women she spoke to, are entitled to asylum. That is not crossing the border illegally. What we should do is flood the zone to make sure we have people to make those decisions quickly. With regard to the secretary's point, I already proposed and passed $750 dollars for Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras to be able to change the circumstance why people fled in the first place.

Vice President Joe Biden:
In addition to that, we're in a circumstance where if, in fact, you say you can just cross the border, what do you say to all those people around the world who, in fact, want the same thing, to come to United States and make their case. That they don't … That they have to wait in line. The fact of the matter is you should be able to- if you cross the border illegally, you should be able to be sent back. It's a crime. It's a crime, and it's not one that in fact-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Secretary Castro, please, your response?

Sec. Julián Castro:
First of all, Mr. Vice President, it looks like one of us has learned the lessons of the past and one of us hasn't. Let me begin by telling you … Let me just start out by answering that question. My immigration plan would also fix the broken legal immigration system, because we do have a problem with that.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I agree.

Sec. Julián Castro:
Secondly, the only way that we're going to guarantee that these kinds of family separations don't happen in the future is that we need to repeal this law. There's still gonna be consequences if somebody crosses the border. It's a civil action. Also, we have 654 miles of fencing. We have thousands of personnel at the border. We have planes. we have boats, we have helicopters, we have security cameras …

Don Lemon:
Secretary Castro, thank you.

Sec. Julián Castro:
What we need are politicians that actually-

Don Lemon:
Your time is up.

Sec. Julián Castro:
-have some guts on this issue.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Secretary. Mr. Vice President, your response.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I have guts enough to say his plan doesn't make sense. Here's the deal. The fact of the matter is that, in fact, when people cross the border illegally, it is illegal to do it unless they're seeking asylum. People should have to get in line. That's the problem. And the only reason this particular part of the law is being abused because of Donald Trump. We should defeat Donald Trump and end this practice.

Don Lemon:
Thank you. Congresswoman Gabbard, what's your response.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
Our hearts break when we see those children at these detention facilities who've been separated from their parents, when we see human beings crowded into cages in abhorrent, inhumane conditions. This is about leadership and understanding that we can and should have both secure borders, as well as humane immigration policies.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
We will have to stop separating children from their parents, make it so that it's easier for people to seek asylum in this country, make sure that we are securing our borders and making it so that people are able to use our legal immigration system by reforming those laws.

Don Lemon:
Mr. Yang, your response?

Andrew Yang:
I'm the son of immigrants myself. My father immigrated here as a graduate student and generated over 65 U.S. patents for G.E. and IBM. I think that's a pretty good deal for the United States. That's the immigration story we need to be telling. We can't always be focusing on some of the distressed stories. And if you go to a factory here in Michigan, you will not find wall-to-wall immigrants. You will find wall-to wall robots and machines. Immigrants are being scapegoated for issues they have nothing to do with in our economy.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mr. Yang. Senator Booker, you have a plan that would "virtually eliminate immigration detention." Does that mean that the roughly 55,000 migrants currently in detention would be released into the United States?

Sen. Cory Booker:
First of all, I just want to say again, tonight, we are playing into Republican hands, who have a very different view, and they're trying to divide us against each other. I'm listening to the language of my colleagues. No, Mr. Vice President, we are not going to just let people cross the border. An unlawful crossing is an unlawful crossing, if you do it in the civil courts or if you do it through the criminal courts. But the criminal courts is what is giving Donald Trump the ability to truly violate the human rights of people coming to our country, who no one surrenders their human rights.

Sen. Cory Booker:
Doing it through the civil courts means that you won't need these awful detention facilities that I've been to, seeing children sleeping on pavement, people being put in cages, nursing mothers, small children. This is not necessary. We have seen, using the civil system, piloted programs that have 100 percent compliance with the civil courts, where people are evaluated. If they have no justifiable reason to be here, they are returned. If they are like the people I met in Juarez who were survivors of sexual assault, who we wouldn't even let come at present for asylum, we are butchering our values-

Don Lemon:
Senator-

Sen. Cory Booker:
-and making ourselves less safe.

Don Lemon:
Senator Booker, thank you very much. Mr. Vice President, your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
I agree with the senator. The asylum process is a real process, and this president is ruining it. It has nothing to do with that section of law. That's what he's doing, number one. Number two, we should, in fact — and we have proposed and we tried to get past our administration, I proposed, significantly increasing the number of legal immigrants who are able to come.

Vice President Joe Biden:
This country can tolerate a heck of a lot more people. And the reason we're the country we are is we've been able to cherry pick from the best of every culture. Immigrants built this country. That's why we're so special. It took courage. It took resolve and resilience. It took absolute confidence from the come. And we should be encouraging these people.

Don Lemon:
Thank you.

Vice President Joe Biden:
And by the way, anybody across the stage with a PhD, you should get a green card for seven years. We should keep them here.

Don Lemon:
Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Vice President. Governor Inslee, what's your response?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I think we're missing two central statements we need to make. Number one, we can no longer allow a white nationalist to be in the White House, number one. Number two, we have to make America what it's always been, a place of refuge. We got to boost the number of people we accept. I'm proud of being the first governor saying send us your Syrian refugees. I'm proud of being the first governor to stand up against Donald Trump's Muslim ban. I'm proud to have sued him 21 times and beat him 21 times in a row. I'm ready for November 2020.

Don Lemon:
Go ahead, Mayor de Blasio, please. Your response?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Two points. One, it's all kind of a charade because, there's 11 million people here, and everyone, in theory has broken the law. But they're part of our communities now. They're part of our economy. They're our neighbors. Why are we even discussing on one level whether it's a civil penalty or a criminal penalty when it's an American reality? And what we need is comprehensive immigration reform, once and for all, to fix it.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Second, Vice President Biden, I didn't hear your response when the issue came up of all those deportations. You were Vice President of United States. I didn't hear whether you tried to stop them or not using your power, your influence in the White House. Do you think it was a good idea or do you think it was something that needed to be stopped?

Don Lemon:
Mr. Vice President-

Vice President Joe Biden:
The president came along, and he's the guy that came up with the idea first time ever, dealing with the dreamers. He put that in the law. He had talked about a comprehensive plan, which he put on the — laid before the Congress, saying that we should find a pathway to citizenship for people.

Vice President Joe Biden:
He said we should up the number of people that were able to bring in this country. Lastly, he also pointed out that we should go to the source of the problem and fix it, where people were leaving in the first place. So he did- to compare him to Donald Trump, I think, is absolutely bizarre.

Don Lemon:
Thank you very much, Mr. Vice President. Congresswoman Gabbard, you're a co-sponsor of the College for All Act, which would make public colleges and universities free for all Americans. One of the authors of that plan, Senator Sanders, believes colleges should be tuition free for undocumented immigrants, as well. Do you?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
I don't. I think it's important for us to fix our legal immigration system and look at the millions of undocumented immigrants in this country who have been suffering as they've been living in the shadows. And instead of putting a Band-Aid on this problem, fix our legal immigration system to provide them with that pathway to legal residency or citizenships, that they're no longer treated as second-class citizens in this country.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
We've got to look at the challenge that people all across this country are facing, under crushing student debt. This is something that is impacting my generation in a huge way. And I believe that it is our generation that has the bold, creative solutions to be able to solve it. This is about promise for our future, and we've got to make those kinds of investment.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Congresswoman. Mayor de Blasio, what's your response?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Yeah, I agree with the congress member, but I don't hear an answer from the vice president. I'm confused. I asked the vice president point blank. "Did he use his power to stop those deportations?". He went right around the question. Mr. Vice President, you want to President of the United States. You need to be able to answer the tough questions. I guarantee you, if you're debating Donald Trump, he's not going to let you off the hook. So, did you say those deportations were a good idea or did you go to the president say, "This is a mistake. We shouldn't do it?" Which one?

Vice President Joe Biden:
I was vice president. I am not the president. I keep my recommendation to him in private. Unlike you, I expect you would go ahead and say whatever was said privately with him. That's not what I do. What I do say to you is he moved to fundamentally change the system. That's what he did. That's who did. But much more has to be done.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
I still don't hear an answer.

Don Lemon:
Senator Booker, please respond.

Sen. Cory Booker:
A couple of things. First of all, Mr. Vice President, you can't have it both ways. You invoke President Obama more than anybody in this campaign. You can't do it when it's convenient, and then dodge it when it's not. And the second thing … This really irks me because I heard the vice president say that if you've got a PhD, you can come right into this country. That's playing into what the Republicans want, to pit some immigrants against other immigrants. Some are from shithole countries and some are from worthy countries. We need to reform this whole immigration system and begin to be the country that says everyone has worth and dignity. And this should be a country that honors for everyone. Don't let the Republicans divide this party against itself.

Don Lemon:
Senator, thank you. Mr. Vice President, your response.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is that's what I said about this country. We are a country of immigrants. All of us. All of us. Some here came against their will. Others came, because they, in fact, thought they could fundamentally change their lives. And they did.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The Statue of … "Send us your" … That's what we're talking about. That's what made us great. And the fact of the matter is, I think the President of the United States, Barack Obama, went out of his way to try to change the system. And he got pushed back significantly.

Don Lemon:
Senator Gillibrand, what's your response?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
Again, President, Trump under his administration, seven children died in his custody. Under his administration, families have been torn apart. This party is talking about real ideas for the future. We're talking about what we will do to change America. But we must not forget about our values. We used to believe, in this country, you should treat others the way you want to be treated. We used to be believe, in this country, we should care about the least among us. Let's remind the American people who we are. Why are we are Democrats and why we're running for president?

Don Lemon:
Senator Gillibrand, thank you very much. Mr. Vice President, Senator Booker called your new criminal justice reform plan "an inadequate solution to what is a raging crisis in our country." Why is Senator Booker wrong?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Well, I think he is wrong. I think we should work together. He has a similar plan. I think that we should change the way we look at prisons. Right now, we're in a situation where, when someone is convicted of a drug crime, they end up going to jail and to prison. They should be going to rehabilitation. They shouldn't be going to prison. When in prison, they should be learning to read and write, and not just sit in there and learn how to be better criminals.

Vice President Joe Biden:
And when they get out of prison, they should be in a situation where they have access to everything they would have had before, including Pell grants for education, including making sure that they're able to have housing, public housing, including they have all the opportunities that were available to them, because we want them to become better citizens.

Vice President Joe Biden:
That's the essence of what my plan, in detail, lays out. I'm happy to discuss it more in detail if the senator would want to. I looked … Anyway, that's what I think my plan- I know what my plan does, and I think it's not dissimilar to what the Senator said – we should be working together on getting things done.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Booker, your response?

Sen. Cory Booker:
My response is that this is a crisis in our country because we have treated issues of race and poverty, mental health and addiction with locking people up and not lifting them up. And Mr. Vice President has said that, since the 1970s, every major crime bill – every crime bill, major and minor – has had his name on it. And, sir, those are your words, not mine. And this is one of those instances where the house was set on fire and you claimed responsibility for those laws. You can't just now come out with a plan to put out that fire. We have got to have far more bold action on criminal justice reform, like having true-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
-marijuana justice, which means that we legalize it on a federal level-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
-and reinvest the profits in communities that have been-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Booker.

Sen. Cory Booker:
-disproportionately targeted by marijuana enforcement.

Jake Tapper:
Vice President Biden, I want to give you chance to respond.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is that the bills that the president that- excuse me, the future president here- that the Senator is talking about are bills that were passed years ago, and they're passed overwhelming. Since 2007, I, for example, tried to get the crack-powder-cocaine totally disparity totally eliminated.

Vice President Joe Biden:
In 2007, you became mayor and you had a police department that was — you went out and you hired Rudy Giuliani's guy and engaged in stop-and-frisk. You had 75 percent of those stops reviewed as illegal. You found yourself in a situation where three times as many African American kids were caught in that chain and caught up. The Justice Department came after you for saying you were you were engaging in behavior that was inappropriate. And then, in fact, nothing happened the entire time you were mayor.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Senator Booker, you want to respond?

Sen. Cory Booker:
First of all, I'm grateful that he endorsed my presidency already. But I'll tell you this. It's no secret that I inherited a criminal- a police department with massive problems and decades-long challenges. But the head of the ACLU has already said – the head of New Jersey ACLU – that I put forth national standard-setting accountability.

Vice President Joe Biden:
That's-

Sen. Cory Booker:
Mr. Vice President, I didn't interrupt you. Please show me respect, sir.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I'm sorry [cross talk]

Sen. Cory Booker:
We have a system right now that's broken. And if you want to compare records, and, frankly, I'm shocked that you do, I am happy to do that. Because all of the problems that he is talking about, that he created, I actually led the bill that got passed into law that reverses the damage that your bills that you were frankly – to correct you, Mr. Vice President – you were bragging, calling it the Biden crime bill up to 2015.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Vice President Biden?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Number one, the bill he talks about is a bill that in my- our administration, we passed. We passed that bill that you added on to. That's the bill, in fact, passed. And the fact of the matter is, secondly, that there was nothing done for the entire eight years he was mayor. There is nothing done to deal with the police department that was corrupt. Why did you announce in the first day a zero tolerance policy of stop-and-frisk and hire Rudy Giuliani's guy in 2007, when I was. trying to get rid of the crack cocaine disparity?

Sen. Cory Booker:
Mr. Vice President, there's a saying in my community, you're dipping into the Kool-Aid and you don't even know the flavor. You need to come to the city of Newark and see the reforms that we put in place. The New Jersey head of the ACLU has said that I embrace reforms, not just in action, but in deeds. Sir, you are trying to shift the view from what you created. There are people right now in prison for life for drug offenses, because you stood up and used that "tough on crime" phony rhetoric that got a lot of people elected but destroyed communities like mine. This isn't about the past. This is about the present right now. I believe in redemption making dinner.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Cory Booker:
I'm happy you evolved. [cross talk] no redemption to the people in prison right now, for life-

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Secretary- I wanna bring in Secretary Castro. Your response, sir?

Sec. Julián Castro:
I agree with Senator Booker that a lot of what Vice President helped author in '94 was a mistake. He has flip-flopped on these things and that's clear. But let me say, when we talk about criminal justice reform, there are a lot of things that we can talk about – sentencing reform, cash bail reform, investing in public defenders diversion programs.

Sec. Julián Castro:
I'm proud that I'm the only candidate that has put forward a police reform plan, because we have a police system that is broken and we need to fix it. Whether it's the case of someone like Tamir Rice or Michael Brown or Eric Garner, where the Trump Justice Department just decided not to pursue charges, we need to ensure we have a national use of force standard and that we end qualified immunity for police officers, so that we can hold them accountable for using excess.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Secretary Castro [cross talk] I want to bring in Governor Inslee. Governor Inslee, your response?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Let me suggest that people come out to the state of Washington and see what criminal justice reform looks like, our effort to reduce racial disparity. I'm proud that I was the first governor to offer pardons to thousands of people with drug crimes. Now we're vacating more, tens of thousands. We've eliminated the death penalty.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
And importantly, we've done this. When people come out of the legal system and they've done their responsibility to the citizens, we need to make sure they get a job. We have banned the box, so that people can actually get a job when they come out. And I've got to argue with my friend, Secretary Castro. We've just put forth a plan. We have adopted probably one of the best police accountability measures and train our police officers in de-escalation tech techniques, so we have less violence.

Jake Tapper:
Secretary Castro, your response to Governor Inslee?

Sec. Julián Castro:
That it's much more than that, because what we see – and this was a good example, the other day, of the Department of Justice not going after Officer Pantaleo that – Officer Pantaleo used a chokehold that was prohibited by NYPD. He did that for seven seconds. 11 different times. Eric Garner said that he couldn't breathe. He knew what he was doing, that he was killing Eric Garner. And yet he has not been brought to justice. That police officer should be off the street.

Jake Tapper:
Mayor de Blasio. Why is that police officer still on the force, The one who killed Eric Garner? Please respond.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Let me tell you. I know the Garner family. They've gone through extraordinary pain. They are waiting for justice and are going to get justice. There's finally going to be justice. I have confidence in that, in the next 30 days, in New York. You know why? Because for the first time, we are not waiting on the federal Justice Department, which told the city of New York that we could not proceed because the Justice Department was pursuing their prosecution. And years went by. and a lot of pain accrued. In The meantime, what I'm working on is making sure — and I have for five years — there will never be another tragedy, there will never be another Eric Garner, because we're changing fundamentally how we police.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
But there's one last point I have to say about the Justice Department. The Vice President for two and a half of those years. Mr. Vice President, tell us, what did you do to try and spur on the Justice Department to act in the Garner case?

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor de Blasio. Vice President Biden, you can respond to that.

Vice President Joe Biden:
We did a lot. Number one, we made sure we reduced the federal prison population by 38,000 people, number one. Number two, we, in fact, insisted that we change the rules that police engage in. They had to have- we provided for body cameras. We made sure that there are a lot of things that were changed in the process, but 38,000 people with federal system were released under the system.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is that there's a lot we've done. But here's the deal. The fact is that we're talking about things that occurred a long, long time ago. And now all of a sudden … I find it fascinating. Everybody's talking about how terrible I am on these issues. Barack Obama knew exactly who I was. He had 10 lawyers do a background check and everything about me on civil rights and civil liberties. And he chose me. He said it was the best decision he made.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President.

Andrew Yang:
May I please?

Jake Tapper:
Mr. Yang, your response?

Andrew Yang:
I speak for just about everyone watching when I say I would trust anyone on this stage much more than I would trust our current president on matters of criminal justice. We cannot tear each other down. We have to focus on beating Donald Trump in 2020. I want to share a story that a prison guard, a corrections officer in New Hampshire, said to me. He said we should pay people to stay out of jail, because we spend so much when they're behind bars. Right now, we think we're saving money. We just end up spending the money in much more dark and punitive ways. We should put money directly into people's hands, certainly when they come out of prison, but before they go to prison.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Yang. I want to bring in Senator Gillibrand. You heard earlier Mayor de Blasio respond to Secretary Castro on the question of why the police officer who killed Eric Garner is still on the NYPD. Was that response adequate? Please respond.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
No, he should be fired. He should be fired now. I sat down with Eric Garner's mother. And I can tell you, when you've lost your son, when he begged for breath, when you know because you have a video, when you know he said "I can't breathe" so many times over and over again, when you know he used an illegal chokehold, that person should be fired. If I was the mayor, I'd fire him. But as president, I would make sure that we had a full investigation, that the report would be made public, and if I wasn't satisfied, we would have a consent decree.

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Senator Harris now. Senator Harris, you have also been quite critical of Vice President Biden's policies on race, specifically on the issue of busing in the 1970s, having benefited from busing when you were a young child. Vice President Biden says that your current position on busing, you're opposed to federally mandated busing, that that position is the same as his position. Is he right?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
That is simply false. And let's be very clear about this. When Vice President Biden was in the United States Senate, working with segregationists to oppose busing, which was the vehicle by which we would integrate America's public schools, had I been in the United States Senate at that time, I would have been completely on the other side of the aisle. Let's be clear about this. Had those segregationist their way, I would not be a member of the United States Senate. Corey Booker would not be a member of the United States Senate. And Barack Obama would not have been in a position to nominate him to the title he now holds.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
On that issue, we could not be more apart, which is that the Vice President has still failed to acknowledge that it was wrong to take the position that he took at that time. Now, I would like to also talk about this conversation about Eric Garner, because I, too, met with his mother. One of the things that we've got to be clear about is that this President of the United States, Donald Trump, while he has been in office, has quietly been allowing the United States Department of Justice to shut down consent decrees, to stop pattern and practice investigations. On that case, we also know that Civil Rights Division…

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
This is important. The Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice said charges should have been filed, but this United States Department of Justice was usurped. And I believe it is because that president did not want those charges to go forward. And they overrode a decision by the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Under my administration, the Civil Rights Division will reign and there will be no independent investigations.

Jake Tapper:
Vice President, I want to give you a chance to respond to what Senator Harris just said.

Vice President Joe Biden:
When Senator Harris was attorney general for eight years in the state of California, there were two of the most segregated school districts in the country, in Los Angeles and in San Francisco. And she did not- I didn't see a single solitary time she brought a case against them to desegregate. Secondly, she also was in a situation where she had a police department when she was there that, in fact, was abusing people's rights.

Vice President Joe Biden:
And the fact was that she, in fact, was told by her own people that her own staff that she should do something about and disclose to defense attorneys like me, that you, in fact, have been … The police officer did something that did not give you information, would exculpate your client. She didn't do that. She never did. And so what happened. Along came a federal judge and said, enough, enough. And he freed 1,000 of these people. If you doubt me, Google '1,000 prisoners freed – Kamala Harris'-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Vice President Biden. Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
That is simply not true. As attorney general of California, where I ran the second largest Department of Justice in the United States, second only to the United States Department of Justice, I am proud of the work we did, work that has received national recognition for what has been the important work of reforming a criminal justice system and cleaning up the consequences of the bills that you passed when you are in the United States Senate for decades. It was the work of creating the- one of the first in the nation initiatives around reentering former offenders and getting them jobs and counseling.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I did the work as attorney general of putting body cameras on special agents in the State of California-

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Congresswoman Gillibrand-

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-and I'm proud of that work.

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Congresswoman Gabbard. Congresswoman Gabbard, you took issue with Senator Harris confronting Vice President Biden at the last debate. You called it a "false accusation" that Joe Biden is a racist. What's your response?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
I want to bring the conversation back to the broken criminal justice system that is disproportionately negatively impacting black and brown people all across this country today. Senator Harris says she's proud of her record as a prosecutor and that she'll be a prosecutor president. But I'm deeply concerned about this record. There are too many examples to cite.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
She put over 1,500 people in jail for marijuana violations and then laughed about it when she was asked if she ever smoked marijuana. She blocked evidence that would have freed an innocent man from death row until the courts forced her to do so. She kept people in prison beyond their sentences to use them as cheap labor for the state of California. And she fought to keep cash system in place that impacts poor people in the worst kind of way.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congresswoman. Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
As the elected Attorney General of California, I did the work of significantly reforming the criminal justice system of a state of 40 million people, which became a national model for the work that needs to be done. And I am proud of that work. And I am proud of making a decision to not just give fancy speeches or be in a legislative body and give speeches on the floor, but actually doing the work of being in the position to use the power that I had to reform a system that is badly in need of reform. That is why we created initiatives that were about reentering former offenders and getting them counseling. It is why and because I know that criminal justice is broken-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-that I am an advocate for what we need to do to not only decriminalize, but legalize marijuana in the United States.

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Congresswoman Gabbard back in. Your response, please.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
The bottom line is, Senator Harris, when you were in a position to make a difference and an impact in these people's lives, you did not. And worse yet, in the case of those who were on death row, innocent people, you actually blocked evidence from being revealed that would have freed them until you were forced to do so. There is no excuse for that. And the people who suffered under your reign as prosecutor, you owe them an apology.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Harris.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
My entire career I have been opposed — personally opposed to the death penalty, and that has never changed. And I dare anybody who is in a position to make that decision, to face the people I have faced to say I will not seek the death penalty. That is my background. That is my work.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I am proud of it. I think you can judge people by when they are under fire. And it's not about some fancy opinion on a stage, but when they are in the position to actually make the decision, what do they do? When I was in the position of having to decide whether or not to seek a death penalty on cases I prosecuted, I made a very difficult decision that was not popular to not seek the death penalty. History shows that and I am proud of those decisions.

Don Lemon:
Senator Harris, thank you very much. Senator Bennet, a question for you. Why are you the best candidate to heal the racial divide that exists in this country today, which has been stoked by the president's racist rhetoric?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Yes. First of all, the president's racist rhetoric should be enough grounds for everybody in this country to vote him out of office. That one thing alone should be enough. Second, Don, I want to answer your question by tagging on the conversation we were just having. This is the fourth debate that we have had and the second time that we've been debating what people did 50 years ago with busing when our schools are as segregated today as they were 50 years ago.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
We need a conversation about what's happening now. And when there's a group of kids in this country that don't get pre-school through no fault of their own and another group does, equal is not equal. And we've got a group with -12 schools that are good, because families can spend a million bucks, and you've got the Detroit public schools that are as segregated as they were. Equal is not equal.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
And let me tell you something else, Don. I believe you can draw a straight line from slavery through Jim Crow, through the banking and the redlining to the mass incarceration that we were talking about on this stage a few minutes ago. But you know what other line I can draw? 88 percent of the people in our prisons dropped out of high school. Let's fix our school system and maybe we can fix the prison pipeline that we have.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator Bennet. Governor Inslee, what's your response? Governor Inslee, please respond.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I approach this question with humility, because I have not experienced what many Americans have. I've never been a black teenager pulled over in a white neighborhood. I have never been a woman talked over in a meeting. I've never been an LGBTQ member subject to a slur. And so I have believed I have an added responsibility, a double responsibility, to deal with racial disparity.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
We've talked on the way we do it, including ending the school to prison pipeline in my state. But I want to say this, and this is a common error that every single senator on this stage, as much as I respect them all- they all have an enormous error, which is going to prevent our party from making any progressive progress in the United States.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
And it is this. We are all going to work like the dickens to get more Democrats elected to the Senate, right. We are going to do that. And I hope we're going to succeed. But if we get a majority in the U.S. Senate, because of the position of the senators, not a damn thing's gonna get done.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
And I'll tell you why. With all their good intentions – and I know they're very sincere and passionate and I respect them enormously – but because they embraced this anteduluvinal super-majority thing called the filibuster, Mitch McConnell is going to run the U.S. Senate, even if we take a majority.

Don Lemon:
Thank you.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
We've got to get rid of the filibusters, so we can govern the United States.

Don Lemon:
Mr. Yang, why are you the best candidate to heal the racial divide in America? Your response?

Andrew Yang:
I spent seven years running a nonprofit that helped create thousands of jobs, including hundreds right here in Detroit, as well as Baltimore, Cleveland, New Orleans. And I saw that the racial disparities are much, much worse than I'd ever imagined. They're even worse still.

Andrew Yang:
A study just came out that projected the average African-American median net worth will be zero by 2053. You have to ask yourself: "How is that possible?" It's possible because we're in the midst of the greatest economic transformation in our history. Artificial intelligence is coming. It's going to displace hundreds of thousands of call center workers, truck drivers – the most common job in twenty nine states, including this one.

Andrew Yang:
And you know who suffers most in a natural disaster? It's people of color, people who have lower levels of capital and education and resources. So what are we going to do about it? We should just go back to the writings of Martin Luther King, who in 1967, his book "Casts Our Community," said we need a guaranteed minimum income in the United States of America. That is the most effective way for us to address racial inequality in a genuine way and give every American a chance in the 21st century economy.

Don Lemon:
Mr. Yang, thank you very much. Secretary Castro, after the president's racist tweets attacking Baltimore and Congressman Elijah Cummings, the mayor of Baltimore slammed the tweets and said to the president, and I quote here, "Help us. Send the resources that we need to rebuild America." So what would you do for Baltimore and other cities that need help?

Sec. Julián Castro:
First of all, the president is a racist, and that was just one more example of it. We know that, whether it's Baltimore or cities like Detroit, they have- they're tremendously rich in history and culture and also in possibility. Here's what I would do if I'm president.

Sec. Julián Castro:
Number one, I would invest in tremendous educational opportunity. Invest in universal pre-K for three- and four-year-olds. Invest in improving K-12 education and also making higher education available to everyone through tuition-free public state universities, community colleges and job training and certification programs. I would follow up on the work that I did at HUD. We passed the most sweeping rule to further desegregate our communities in the United States. This Trump administration set that back. I would put that back in order.

Sec. Julián Castro:
I would also invest in housing that is affordable, because folks know that the rent is going through the roof. And we need to make sure that you don't have to get out of West Baltimore or Inner City Detroit or the west side of San Antonio or anywhere if you want to reach your American dream. I want you to be able to accomplish it in your great neighborhood where you are.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Secretary Castro. Senator Gillibrand, what's your response?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I don't believe that it's the responsibility of Cory and Kamala to be the only voice that takes on these issues of institutional racism, systemic racism in our country. I think as a white woman of privilege, who is a U.S. senator running for President of the United States, it is also my responsibility to lift up those voices that aren't being listened to.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
And I can talk to those white women in the suburbs that voted for Trump and explain to them what white privilege actually is, that when their son is walking down a street with a bag of M&Ms in his pocket, wearing a hoodie, his whiteness is what protects him from not being shot. When their child has a car that breaks down and he knocks on someone's door for help, and the door opens and the help is given, it's his whiteness that protects him from being shot. That is what white privilege in America is today.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
So my responsibility is to not only lift up those stories, but explain to communities across America, like I did in Youngstown, Ohio, to a young mother, that this is all of our responsibilities and that together we can make our community stronger.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Gillibrand. Let's now turn to the issue of the climate crisis. The United Nations says the world needs to cut all carbon emissions by 2050 or risk facing disastrous consequences. Governor Inslee, many of your fellow Democratic candidates say climate change is the biggest existential threat facing the country. You, though, are calling it the number one priority in your campaign. What do you know that the others don't?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I know the firsthand terrific impact of climate change on Americans across the country already. The family who I saw, with their aluminum home now just a pile of molten aluminum. They lost everything in the Paradise fires; the nonprofit in Davenport, Iowa that was washed away in the floods. We have to act now. Look, climate change is not a singular issue. It is all the issues that we Democrats care about. It is health. It is national security. It is our economy. We know this.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Middle ground solutions, like the vice president has proposed, or sort of middling average-sized things, are not going to save us. Too little, too late is too dangerous. And we have to have a bold plan. Mine has been called the gold standard. Now, we also need to embed environmental justice. I was in zip code 48217 in the Detroit neighborhood the other day, right next to an oil refinery, where the kids have asthma and they have cancer clusters. And after talking to these folks, I believe this …

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I believe this. It doesn't matter what your zip code is-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Governor.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
-it doesn't matter what your color is, you ought to have clean air and water in America. That's what I believe.

Dana Bash:
Vice President Biden, I would like to get your response. Governor Inslee just said that your plan is middling.

Vice President Joe Biden:
There is no middle ground about my plan. The fact of the matter is I call for the immediate action to be take. First of all, one of the things that- we're responsible for 15 percent of all the pollution in the country. He's right about how it affects people and it affects neighborhoods, particularly poor neighborhoods.

Vice President Joe Biden:
But here's the deal. In that area, there's also another piece. 85 percent of it is something I helped negotiate. And that is the Paris Climate Accord. I would immediately rejoin that Paris Accord. I would make sure that we up the ante, which it calls for. I would be able to bring those leaders together who I know. I'd convene them in the White House, like we did the nuclear summit, and I would raise the standard.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I also invested $400 billion-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, sir.

Vice President Joe Biden:
-in research for new alternatives to deal with climate change-

Dana Bash:
Mr. Yang, your response?

Vice President Joe Biden:
-and that's bigger than any other person.

Andrew Yang:
The important number in Vice President Biden's remarks just now is that the United States is only 15 percent of global emissions. We like to act as if we're 100 percent. But the truth is, even if we were to curb our emissions dramatically, the earth is still going to get warmer. And we can see it around us this summer.

Andrew Yang:
The last four years have been the four warmest years in recorded history. This is going to be a tough truth, but we are too late. We are 10 years too late. We need to do everything we can to start moving the climate in the right direction, but we also need to start moving our people to higher ground. And the best way to do that is to put economic resources into your hands, so you can protect yourself and your families.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I was challenged by the Vice President.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator-

Gov. Jay Inslee:
May I be heard on this for a moment?

Dana Bash:
Go ahead, Governor.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Thank you very much. Look, we have … These deadlines are set by science. Mr. Vice President, your argument is not with me, is with science. And unfortunately, your plan is just too late. The science tells us we have to get off coal in 10 years. Your plan does not do that. We have to have off of fossil fuels in our electrical grid in 15. Your plan simply does not do that. I've heard you say that we need a realistic plan. Here's what I believe.

Vice President Joe Biden:
No, I didn't say that.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Here's what I believe. I believe that survival is realistic, and that's the kind of plan we need. And that's the kind I have.

Vice President Joe Biden:
My plan calls for 500,000 charging stations around the country, so by 2030, we're all electric vehicles. My plan calls for making sure that we have $400 billion invested in technologies to learn how to contain what we're doing, creating 10 million new jobs. We will double offshore wind. We will end any subsidies for coal or any other fossil fuel. But we have to also engage the world while we're doing it. We have to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Just to clarify, would there be any place for fossil fuels, including coal and fracking in a Biden administration?

Vice President Joe Biden:
No. We would work it out. We would make sure it's eliminated and no more subsidies for either one of those, either … Any fossil fuel.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
We can't-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, sir.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
We cannot work it out. We cannot work this out. The time is up. Our house is on fire. We have to stop using coal in 10 years, and we need a president to do it or it won't get done. Get off coal. Save this country and the planet. That's what I'm for.

Dana Bash:
Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I have to agree with Governor Inslee, and I'm going to just paraphrase one of your great sayings, Governor, which is we currently have a president in the White House who obviously does not understand the science. He's been pushing science fiction instead of science fact. The guy thinks that wind turbines cause cancer, but what, in fact, they cause is jobs. And the reality is that I would take any Democrat on this stage over the current President of the United States, who is rolling it back to our collective peril. We must have and adopt a Green New Deal. On day one, as president, I would re-enter us in the Paris Agreement today-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-and put in place so we would be carbon neutral by 2030.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. I want to talk about that with Senator Gillibrand. You are a co-sponsor of the Green New Deal, which includes the guarantee of a job with medical leave, paid vacations and retirement security for everyone in America. Explain how that's realistic.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
The first thing that I'm going to do when I'm president is I'm going to Clorox the Oval Office. The second thing I'm going to do is I will re-engage on global climate change. And I will not only sign the Paris Global Climate Accords, but I will lead a worldwide conversation about the urgency of this crisis.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
The greatest threat to humanity is global climate change. I visited a family in Iowa who, water spewed into her home, Fran Parr … It tossed her refrigerator up and all the furniture was broken, all the dishes were broken and mud was everywhere. That is the impact of severe weather right now on families' lives. And so the truth is we need a robust solution.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
When John F. Kennedy said, I want to put a man on the moon in the next 10 years, not because it's easy, but because it's hard, he knew it was going to be a measure of our innovation, our success, our ability to galvanize worldwide competition. He wanted to have a space race with Russia. Why not have a green energy race with China? Why not have clean air and clean water for all Americans? Why not rebuild our infrastructure? Why not actually invest in the green jobs? That's what the Green New Deal is about.

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
Not only will I pass up, but I will put a price on carbon to make market forces help us.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Congresswoman Gabbard, you are not a co-sponsor of the Green New Deal. Please respond.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
First of all, this is personal. You can imagine I grew up in Hawaii, which is the most remote island chain in the world. So for us, growing up there, protecting our environment was not a political issue. It's a way of life. It's part of our culture. It's part of who we are. This is why, as a member of Congress, long before there was ever a Green New Deal, I introduced the most ambitious climate change legislation ever in Congress called the " Off Fossil Fuels Act." That actually laid out an actionable plan to take us from where we are today to transition off of fossil fuels and invest in green renewable energy, invest in workforce training, invest in the kinds of infrastructure that we need to deal with the problems and the challenges that climate is posing to us today.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congresswoman. Senator Booker, what's your response? Is the job guarantee in the Green New Deal realistic?

Sen. Cory Booker:
I just want to take, first of all, a step back and say that I agree wholeheartedly with Governor Inslee. It's one of the reasons why Greenpeace ranks me and him at the top of this entire field of candidates.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
Second, Cory. That's close. Second, but close. You're just close.

Sen. Cory Booker:
I'm … Hey … I want to say very clearly, thank you, man. Thank you. I'll try harder. Look, the reason why is because, first of all, this problem didn't start yesterday. Science didn't become a reality yesterday. This has been going on for years. There was another president that would not join an international accord. Then it was the Kyoto accords. I was mayor of them, and I stood up and national leadership joining with other mayors to say climate change is not a separate issue. It must be the issue and the lens with which you view every issue. Nobody should get applause for rejoining the Paris Climate Accords. That is kindergarten.

Sen. Cory Booker:
We have to go to far advances and make sure that everything from our trade deals, everything from the billions of dollars we spend to foreign aid, everything must be sublimated to the challenge and the crisis that is existential, which is dealing with the climate threat. And yes, the majority of this problem is outside the United States. But the only way we're going to deal with this is if the United States leads.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Mayor de Blasio, your administration has come under fire after hundreds of children living in New York City public housing tested positive for elevated levels of lead. As you know, we're not far from Flint, Michigan, where residents are still dealing with the consequences of having lead in their drinking water. How can you assure the people of Flint and across the nation that you are the right person to handle such a problem?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
We have a huge problem, and it's decades old in New York. But here's what we've done about it. We've declared the eradication of all lead, literally ending the notion of lead poisoning once and for all as the goal of our administration and we're doing something about it. Lead poisoning has gone down 90 percent since 2005. And we're going to literally bring it down to zero because we're going to go into every place, buildings, schools, public housing and take out that lead remediate that led once and for all. And that needs to be done all over this country.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Now, the federal government used to not take any responsibility for our public housing. For decades, they've been disinvesting in the public housing that was supposed to be a federal responsibility. That's part of why we have this lead prices to begin with. But I'll tell you what you do when you're actually in charge of something. I'm in charge of the largest city in this nation. You do not accept the status quo. You fix it. And so we are going into every one of those apartments to make sure those children and those families are safe. And then we are going to eradicate that lead once or for all. And there should be a federal mandate to do the same for Flint, for Detroit, for every place in this country-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
-and it can be done.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Secretary Castro, why are you the right candidate to solve this problem? Please respond.

Sec. Julián Castro:
Because people don't have to wonder what I would do. I've actually done it. I was secretary of Housing and Urban Development when Flint had its water crisis. I went to Flint. We did what we could to help folks get water filters, and then, we didn't stop there. We improved the standard of how we deal with elevated blood lead levels in children. A lot of Americans don't know that this is still a major problem out there. I was back in Flint about six weeks ago, and I released a plan to invest 50 billion dollars so that we remove lead as a major public health threat. We need to do it. We can do it. And I will do it if I'm president.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Secretary Castro.

Unidentified:
May I get in on this?

Jake Tapper:
Donald Trump won independents here in Michigan by 16 percentage points, which was critical to Donald Trump winning the state's 16 electoral votes. Now, there is a big debate within the Democratic Party here and around the country about the best way the Democrats can win back Michigan.

Jake Tapper:
Vice President Biden, last night on this stage, Senator Elizabeth Warren said, "We're not going to solve the urgent problems that we face with small ideas and spinelessness. We're going to solve them by being the Democratic Party of big, structural change." What do you say to progressives who worry that your proposals are not ambitious enough to energize the progressive wing of your party, which you will need to beat Donald Trump?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Because we did it. I was asked to manage an $87 billion plan to be spent in a total of 18 months that revived this state and many others, because it kept us out of a depression with two-tenths of one percent waste or fraud. Secondly, I was part of the organization – and within our administration – that pushed bailing General Motors out, saving tens of thousands of jobs here in this state.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Number three, I also was asked, as the mayor of Detroit can tell you, by the President of the United States to help Detroit get out of bankruptcy and get back on its feet. I spent the better part of two years out here working to make sure that it did exactly that. We invested significantly in this city and transportation only … Anyway, the point is we've made significant investments in this state. I expect in this city- I suspect that's why the mayor endorsed me.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Vice President Biden. Senator Gillibrand, what's your response?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
To the people of Michigan, I know exactly how I'd beat President Trump. I've already done it. I took a bus tour to talk about Trump's broken promises here in Michigan. He promised no bad trade deals. Not only did he not have bad trade deals, he started a trade war with China. And he just signed on to another bad trade agreement with NAFTA 2.0, give away to drug companies in Mexico.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I took the bus to Michigan, to Ohio and to Pennsylvania, telling people that he has broken his promises to them. I lifted up their voices. I listened to their concerns, and I offered real solutions. And I've done this before. My first house district I ran in was a two to one Republican district. I won it twice. And I haven't lost an election since-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
-so I can bring people together in red, purple and blue areas. But more than that, I can get things done.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Gillibrand. Mr. Yang, in poll after poll, Democratic voters saying that having a nominee who can beat President Trump is more important to them than having a nominee who agrees with him on major issues. And right now, according to polls, they say the candidate who has the best chance of doing that, of beating President Trump is Vice President Biden. Why are they wrong?

Andrew Yang:
I'm building a coalition of disaffected Trump voters, independents, libertarians and conservatives, as well as Democrats and progressives. I believe I'm the candidate best suited to beat Donald Trump. As for how to win in Michigan, and Ohio, and Pennsylvania, the problem is that so many people feel like the economy has left them behind? What we have to do is we have to say, look, there's record high GDP and stock market prices.

Andrew Yang:
You know what else are at record highs? Suicides, drug overdoses, depression, anxiety. It's gotten so bad that American life expectancy has declined for the last three years. And I'd like to talk about my wife was at home with our two boys right now, one of whom is autistic. What is her work count out in today's economy? Zero. We know that's the opposite of the truth.

Andrew Yang:
We know that her work is among the most challenging and vital. The way we win this election is we redefine economic progress to include all the things that matter to the people in Michigan and all of us like our own health, our well-being, our mental health, our clean air and clean water, how our kids are doing. If we change the measurements for the 21st century economy to revolve around our own well-being, then we will win this election.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Yang. Congresswoman Gabbard, your response.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
Donald Trump won this election because far too many people in this country felt like they'd been left behind by both political parties, by self serving politicians on both sides who are more interested in partisan politics than they are in actually fighting for the people.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
I'm speaking the truth to people all across this country about the fact that people in Flint, Michigan are still being left behind, still being poisoned by the water in their system because every single month we are spending $4 billion on a continuing war in Afghanistan, $4 billion every single month rather than ending that war, bringing our troops home, and using those precious resources into serving the needs of the people here in this country. People, communities, like-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congresswoman.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
-that's the kind of leadership that I'll bring.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congresswoman. Senator Booker, your response?

Sen. Cory Booker:
I'm grateful. I'm grateful. Jake, look, this is one of those times where we're not staring at the truth and calling it out. And this is a case for the Democratic Party, the truth will set us free. We lost the state of Michigan because everybody from republicans to Russians were targeting the suppression of African American voters.

Sen. Cory Booker:
We need to say that. If the African American vote in this state had been like it was four years earlier, we would have won the state of Michigan. We need to have a campaign that is ready for what's coming. And all out of salt especially on the most valuable voter group in our- in fact, the highest performing voter group in our coalition, which is black women. I will be a person that tries to fight against voter suppression and to activate and engage the kind of voters and coalitions who are going to win states like Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Harris.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
First of all, Donald Trump came in making a whole lot of promises to working people that he did not keep. He said he was going to help farmers. He said he was going to help autoworkers. Farmers are now looking at bankruptcy, soybeans rotting in bills. Auto workers we expect perhaps hundreds of thousands will be out of jobs by the end of the year. Jerome Powell just dropped the interest rates and he admitted why?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Because of this so called trade policy that this president has that has been nothing more than the Trump trade tax that has resulted in American families spending as much as $1.4 billion more on everything from shampoo to washing machines. He betrayed the American people, he betrayed American families, and he will lose this election because folks are clear-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-that he has done nothing except try to beat people down instead of lift people up. And that's what we want in the next president of the United States.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Harris.

Dana Bash:
Secretary Castro, this is for you. Wage growth is up. Stocks are rising. Unemployment is near historic lows, including for Latinos and African-Americans. You have all outlined plans, but you in particular, that could end up raising taxes. How can you guarantee that won't hurt the economy?

Sec. Julián Castro:
First of all, there are a lot of Americans right now that are hurting. Just go and ask the folks that just received notice that they're getting laid off by General Motors, or ask the many folks who are sleeping on the streets in big cities and small towns across the United States, or ask fast food workers that I joined a couple of weeks ago that are working for minimum wage and can't provide for their families or pay the rent.

Sec. Julián Castro:
So idea that America is doing just fine is wrong. Not only that, this president always likes to take credit, like he did this. We have now had about 105 straight months of positive job growth, the longest streak in American history. Over 80 months of that was due to President Barack Obama. Thank you, Barack Obama. Thank you, Barack Obama. I believe that we need to invest in what will ensure that Americans can prosper in the years to come, making sure they have the knowledge and skills to compete in the 21st century economy, ensuring that they can afford the rent where they live and that they have healthcare so that they don't have to worry about going homeless because they can't afford a medical procedure.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Secretary Castro. I want to turn now to a question about trade and for Congresswoman Gabbard. Many saw the Trans-Pacific Partnership issue as something that would be a critical tool to deal with the rise of China. You were against it. How would you ensure that the United States is able to remain competitive against China on the world stage?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
By pushing for fair trade, not trade deals that give away the sovereignty of the American people and our country, that give away American jobs, and that threaten our environment. These are the three main issues with that massive trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I think the central one was the fact that it gave away our sovereignty to a panel of international corporations whose rulings would supersede any domestic law that we would pass, either a federal law or a state or a local law. This is extremely dangerous and goes against the very values that we have as a country. What- to speak of the fact that it would have a negative impact on domestic jobs and that it lacked clear protections for our environment. These are the things that we have to keep at the forefront as we look to enact fair trade deals with other countries to make sure that we continue to be a thriving part of our global economy.

Dana Bash:
So to be clear, Congresswoman, would you keep President Trump's tariffs on China in place?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
I would not, because the approach that President Trump has taken has been extremely volatile without any clear strategic plan, and it has a ravaging and devastating effect on our domestic manufacturers, on our farmers, who are already struggling and now failing to see the light of day because of the plan that Trump has taken.

Dana Bash:
Vice President Biden, would you rejoin the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which, of course, President Trump withdrew from? Please respond.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I've renegotiate. We make up 25 percent of the world's economy. In order- either China is going to write the rules of the road for the 21st century on trade or we are. We have to join with the 40 percent of the world that we had with us, and this time make sure that there's no one sitting at that table doing the deal unless environmentalists are there and labor is there, and to make sure we equip our workers first to compete by investing in them now, in the things that make them more competitive. That's what we have to do. Otherwise, they are going to write the rules of the road. We must have the rest of the world join us to keep them in check from abusing.

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Vice President Biden, just to be clear – would you or would you not re-join the TPP? Yes or no?

Vice President Joe Biden:
I would not rejoin the TTP as it was initially put forward. I would insist that we renegotiate pieces of that with the Pacific nations that we had in South America and North America, so that we could bring them together to hold China accountable for the rules of us setting the rules of the road as to how trade should be conducted. Otherwise, they're going to do exactly what they're doing, fill the vacuum and run the — and run the table.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, sir. Mayor de Blasio, you also oppose the deal. Please respond.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Yeah. And I just want to ask this question of all the candidates, but particularly of Vice President Biden. President Trump is trying to sell NAFTA 2.0. He's got a new name for it. It's just as dangerous as the old NAFTA. It's going to take away American jobs like the old NAFTA, like it did to Michigan. And we cannot have Democrats be party to a new NAFTA.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Vice President, I believe you're the only person on the stage who voted for the original NAFTA. Are you ready to say here and now that you will oppose a new NAFTA and that what you will believe in, which is a lot of us hope for, is trade treaties that empower organized labor across the boundaries of the world and give working people power again, not just multinational corporations.

Dana Bash:
Mr. Vice President?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Yes.

Dana Bash:
Your response. Your response, sir?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Yes.

Dana Bash:
That's it?

Vice President Joe Biden:
No, he said, would I insist that labor be engaged. The answer is yes.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
I consider that a victory.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I love your affection for me. You spend a lot of time with me.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
You know what? We believe in redemption, Joe. We believe in redemption of this party.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I tell you what, I hope you're part of it.

Dana Bash:
Okay. I want to ask a question of Senator Bennet now. Senator, CNN reached out to Michigan Democratic primary voters for their most pressing question. Farris from Flint, Michigan, has this question: "Here in Detroit, our economy has seen firsthand how technology and automation can displace workers and create uncertainty around human job security. How would you balance these disruptions created by technology with the beneficial impact of technology on our economy?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Dana, this goes to the last question you asked, as well, which is, how are we going to remain competitive? It's not just about trade, which we were talking about earlier. It's about whether we're going to invest in this country anymore. Since 2001, we have cut $5 trillion worth of taxes. Almost all of that has gone to the wealthiest people in America.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
We have made the income inequality worse, not better, through the policies of the federal government. We've spent $5.6 trillion in the Middle East. That's $12 trillion or $13 trillion that from the point of view of driving the economy in Michigan, or anywhere else in America, we might as well just have lit that money on fire. We've got to stop doing that.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
And we need to invest in America again. For the money that we've spent that I just described, we could have fixed every road and bridge in this country. We could have fixed every airport that needs to be fixed. We could have fixed not just Flint, but every water system in this country-

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
-we could have made Social Security solvent for my children-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
-but we did none of it because of self-serving politicians in Washington, D.C., who voted for deals that were good for them but not for Michigan, or the American people.

Dana Bash:
Senator Bennet, thank you very much. Your time is up, sir.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Thank you.

Dana Bash:
Mr. Yang- Mr. Yang, women, on average, earn 80 cents, about 80 cents for every dollar earned by men. Senator Harris wants to fine companies that don't close their gender pay gaps. As an entrepreneur, do you think a stiff fine will change how companies pay their female employees?

Andrew Yang:
I have seen firsthand the inequities in the business world where women are concerned, particularly in start-ups and entrepreneurship. We have to do more at every step. And if you're a woman entrepreneur, the obstacles start not just at home, but then when you seek a mentor or an investor, often they don't look like you and they might not think your idea is the right one.

Andrew Yang:
In order to give women a leg up, what we have to do is we have to think about women in every situation, including the ones who are in exploitive and abusive jobs and relationships around the country. I'm talking about the waitress who's getting harassed by her boss at the diner who might have a business idea, but right now is stuck where she is.

Andrew Yang:
What we have to do is we have to give women the economic freedom to be able to improve their own situations and start businesses, and the best way to do this is by putting a dividend of $1,000 a month into their hands. It would be a game-changer for women around the country, because we know that women do more of the unrecognized and uncompensated work in our society. It will not change unless we change it. And I say that's just what we do.

Dana Bash:
Senator Harris, your response?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I think that's support of my proposal, which is this. Since 1963, when we passed the Equal Pay Act, we have been talking about the fact women are not paid equally for equal work. Fast forward to the year of our lord 2019, and women are paid 80 cents on the dollar, black women 61 cents, Native American woman 58 cents, Latinas 53 cents.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I'm done with the conversation. So, yes, I am proposing in order to deal with this, one, I'm going to require corporations to post on their website whether they are paying women equally for equal work. Two, they will be fined for every one percent differential between what they're paying men and women, they will be fined one percent of their previous year's profit. That will get everybody's attention.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Time for action.

Dana Bash:
Senator Gillibrand, what's your response? Will fining companies help solve the problem.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I think we have to have a broader conversation about whether we value women and whether we want to make sure women have every opportunity in the workplace. And I want to address Vice President Biden directly. When the Senate was debating middle-class affordability for childcare, he wrote an op-ed.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
He voted against it, the only vote, but what he wrote in an op-ed was that he believed that women working outside the home would "create the deterioration of family." He also said that women who were working outside the home were "avoiding responsibility."

Sen. Kamala Harris:
And I just need to understand as a woman who's worked my entire career as the primary wage earner, as the primary caregiver, in fact, the second- my second son, Henry, is here, and I had him when I was a member of Congress. So under Vice President Biden's analysis, am I serving in Congress resulting in the deterioration of the family, because I had access to quality affordable day care? I just want to know what he meant when he said that.

Vice President Joe Biden:
That was a long time ago, and here’s what it was about. It would have given people making today $100,000 a year a tax break for childcare. I did not want that. I wanted the childcare to go to people making less than $100,000. And that’s what it was about.

Vice President Joe Biden:
As a single father who in fact raised three children for five years by myself, I have some idea what it cost. I support making sure that every single solitary person needing childcare get an $8,000 tax credit now. That would put 700,000 women back to work, increase the GDP by almost 8/10 of one percent. It's the right thing to do if we can give tax breaks to corporations for these things, why can't we do it this way?

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
But Mr. Vice President, you didn't answer my question. What did you mean when you said when a woman works outside the home, it's resulting in, "the deterioration of family"-

Vice President Joe Biden:
No. What I …

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
-and that we are avoiding … These are quotes. It was the title of the op-ed and that just causes concern for me because we know America's women are working. Four out of 10 moms have to work. They're the primary or sole wagers. They actually have to put food on the table.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
Eight out of 10 moms are working today. Most women have to work to provide for their kids. Many women want to be working to provide for their communities and to help people.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Let the Vice President respond now. Thank you.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
So either you don't believe it today or what did you mean when you said it, then?

Vice President Joe Biden:
The very beginning, my deceased wife worked when we had children. My present wife has worked all the way through raising our children. The fact of the matter is the situation is one that I don't know what's happened.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I wrote the Violence against Women Act. Lilly Ledbetter. I was deeply involved in making sure the equal pay amendments. I was deeply involved on all these things. I came up with the it's on us proposal to see to it that women were treated more decently on college campuses.

Vice President Joe Biden:
You came to Syracuse University with me and said it was wonderful. I'm passionate about the concern making sure women are treated equally. I don't know what's happened except that you're now running for president.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
So I understand- Mr. Vice President … Mr. Vice President, I respect you deeply. I respect you deeply but those words are very specific. You said women working outside the home would lead to the deterioration of family.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
My grandmother worked outside the home. My mother worked outside the home. And-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Gillibrand. I want to bring Senator Harris into this conversation.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
-either he no longer believes it … I just think he needs to-

Vice President Joe Biden:
I never believed it.

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Senator Harris, please respond.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I just … Listen … Talk about now running for president. You change your position on the Hyde Amendment, Vice President, where you made a decision for years to withhold resources to poor women to have access to reproductive healthcare and including women who were the victims of rape and incest.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Do you now say that you have evolved and you regret that? Because you have only, since you've been running for president this time, said that you had — you in some way would take that back or you didn't agree with the decision that you made over many, many years. And this directly impacted so many women in our country and I personally prosecuted rape cases and child molestation cases; and the experience that those women have, those children have and that they would then be denied the resources-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Let the Vice President-

Sen. Kamala Harris:
-I think is unacceptable.

Vice President Joe Biden:
The fact is that the senator knows that that's not position. Everybody on this stage has been in the Congress and the Senate or House has voted for the Hyde Amendment at some point. The Hyde Amendment in the past was available because there was other access for those kinds of services provided privately.

Vice President Joe Biden:
But once I wrote the legislation, making sure that every single woman would in fact be have an opportunity to have healthcare paid for by the federal government, everyone that — that could no longer stand. I support a woman's right to choose. I support it's a constitutional right. I've supported it and I will continue to support it and I will, in fact, move as president to see to it that the Congress legislates that that is the laws, as well.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Governor Inslee, your response.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
Why did it take you so long to change your position in the Hyde Amendment. Why did it take so long until you were running for president to change your position on the Hyde?

Vice President Joe Biden:
Because there was not full federal funding for all reproductive services prior to this point.

Dana Bash:
Okay. Thank you. Governor Inslee, your response?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I would suggest we need to broaden our discussion. I would suggest we need to think about a bigger scandal in America, which is that in professions and careers where women have been more than the majority, they have been almost always under paid. And that is why this year I'm proud to be the governor who won the largest pay increase for our educators in the United States. And I believe that that is long, long overdue. I think it is true for nursing staff as well. And I'm glad that we've now passed in measures. And I'm glad that we've increased our union membership 10 percent [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
So unions can stand up for women.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor Inslee. I want to turn to foreign policy, if we can. Senator Booker, there are about 14,000 U.S. services members in Afghanistan right now. If elected, will they still be in Afghanistan by the end of your first year in office?

Sen. Cory Booker:
First of all, I want to say very clearly that I will not do foreign policy by tweet as Donald Trump seems to do all the time. A guy that literally tweets out that we're pulling our troops out before his generals even know about it is creating a dangerous situation for our troops in places like Afghanistan. And so I will bring our troops home and I will bring them home as quickly as possible, but I will not set during a campaign an artificial deadline. I will make sure we do it, we do it expeditiously, we do it safely, to not create a vacuum that's ultimately going to destabilize the Middle East and perhaps create the environment for terrorism and for extremism to threaten our nation.

Jake Tapper:
Congresswoman Gabbard, you're the only veteran on the stage. Please respond.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
This is real in a way that's very difficult to convey in words. I was deployed to Iraq in 2005 during the height of the war where I served in a field medical unit where every single day I saw the high cost of war. Just this past week, two more of our soldiers were killed in Afghanistan.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
My cousin is deployed to Afghanistan right now. Nearly 300 of our Hawaii National Guard soldiers are deployed to Afghanistan, 14,000 service members are deployed there. This is not about arbitrary deadlines. This is about leadership, the leadership I will bring to do the right thing to bring our troops home, within the first year in office, because they shouldn't have been there this long.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
For too long, we've had leaders who have been arbitrating foreign policy from ivory towers in Washington without any idea about the cost and the consequence, the toll that it takes on our service members, on their families. We have to do the right thing, end these wasteful regime change wars, and bring our troops home.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Thank you, Congresswoman. Mr. Yang, Iran has now breached the terms of the 2015 nuclear deal after President Trump withdrew the U.S. from the deal, and that puts Iran closer to building a nuclear weapon, the ability to do so, at the very least. You've said if Iran violates the agreement, the U.S. would need to respond "very strongly." So how would a President Yang respond right now?

Andrew Yang:
I would move to de-escalate tensions in Iran, because they're responding to the fact that we pulled out of this agreement. And it wasn't just us and Iran. There were many other world powers that were part of that multinational agreement. We'd have to try and re-enter that agreement, renegotiate the timelines, because the timelines now don't make as much sense.

Andrew Yang:
But I've signed a pledge to end the forever wars. Right now, our strength abroad reflects our strength at home. What's happened, really? We've fallen apart at home, so we elected Donald Trump, and now we have this erratic and unpredictable relationship with even our longstanding partners and allies.

Andrew Yang:
What we have to do is we have to start investing those resources to solve the problems right here at home. We've spent trillions of dollars and lost thousands of American lives in conflicts that have had unclear benefits. We've been in a constant state of war for 18 years. This is not what the American people want. I would bring the troops home, I would de-escalate tensions with Iran, and I would start investing our resources in our own communities.

Jake Tapper:
Governor Inslee, your response?

Gov. Jay Inslee:
I think that these are matters of great and often difficult judgment. And there is no sort of primer for presidents to read. We have to determine whether a potential president has adequate judgment in these decisions. I was only one of two members on this panel today who were called to make a judgment about the Iraq war. I was a relatively new member of Congress, and I made the right judgment, because it was obvious to me that George Bush was fanning the flames of war. Now we face similar situations where we recognize we have a president who would be willing to beat the drums of war. We need a president who can stand up against the drums of war and make rational decisions. That was the right vote, and I believe it.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Thank you, Governor. Vice President Biden, he was obviously suggesting that you made the wrong decision and had bad judgment when you voted to go to war in Iraq as a U.S. senator.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I did make a bad judgment, trusting the president saying he was only doing this to get inspectors in and get the U.N. to agree to put inspectors in. From the moment "shock and awe" started, from that moment, I was opposed to the effort, and I was outspoken as much as anyone at all in the Congress and the administration.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Secondly, I was asked by the president in the first meeting we had on Iraq, he turned and said, Joe, get our combat troops out, in front of the entire national security team. One of the proudest moment of my life was to stand there in Al-Faw Palace and tell everyone that we're coming- all our combat troops are coming home.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you.

Vice President Joe Biden:
I opposed the surge in Afghanistan, this long overdue. We should have not, in fact, gone into Afghanistan the way [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. I want to bring in-

Unidentified:
Mr. Vice President, I'd like to comment.

Jake Tapper:
I would like to bring in the person on the stage who served in Iraq. Governor- I'm sorry, Congresswoman Gabbard, your response to what Vice President Biden just said?

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
We were all lied to. This is the betrayal. This is the betrayal to the American people, to me, to my fellow servicemembers. We were all lied to, told that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, was working with Al-Qaeda, and that this posed a threat to the American people.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
So I enlisted after 9/11 to protect our country, to go after those who attacked us on that fateful day, who took the lives of thousands of Americans. The problem is that this current president is continuing to betray us. We were supposed to be going after Al-Qaeda. But over years now, not only have we not gone after Al-Qaeda, who is stronger today than they were in 9/11, our president is supporting Al-Qaeda.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Congresswoman.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
We didn't talk about Iran.

Don Lemon:
Let's talk about … Thank you, please.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
We didn't talk about Iran.

Don Lemon:
Please-

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
We're on a march to war in Iran right now, and we blew by it.

Don Lemon:
Please, Mayor. The rules, please follow the rules.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
I respect the rules, but we have to stop this march to war in Iran.

Don Lemon:
Mayor, thank you very much. We're going on-

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
And the Democratic Party has to stand up for it.

Don Lemon:
-and we're going to talk about another subject. Mayor, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Let's talk about now the former Special Counsel Robert Mueller's appearance in front of Congress last week. When asked whether or not the president could be charged with a crime after leaving office, his answer was yes.

Don Lemon:
Senator Harris, you have criticized President Trump for interfering with the Justice Department, and just last month you said if you were elected president, your Justice Department would, quote, "have no choice and should go forward with obstruction of justice charges against former President Trump." Why is it OK for you to advocate for the Justice Department to prosecute somebody, but President Trump, not him?

Sen. Kamala Harris:
I would never direct the Department of Justice to do whatever it believes it should do. But, listen, look, we all watched his testimony. I've read the report. There are 10 clear incidents of obstruction of justice by this president, and he needs to be held accountable. I have seen people go to prison for far less. And the reality of it is that we have a person in the White House right now who has been shielded by a memo in the United States Department of Justice that says a sitting president cannot be indicted. I believe the American people are right to say there should be consequence and accountability for everyone and no one is above the law, including the president of the United States.

Don Lemon:
Senator Booker, your response?

Sen. Cory Booker:
My response is exactly that. I've read the report. I've read the redacted versions of the report. We have something that is astonishing going on in the United States of the America. We have a president that is not acting like the leader of the free world. He's acting like an authoritarian against the actual Constitution that he swore an oath to uphold. And so this is a difference with a lot of us on this debate stage. I believe that we in the United States Congress should start impeachment proceedings immediately.

Sen. Cory Booker:
And I'll tell you this, Debbie Stabenow now has joined my call for starting impeachment proceedings, because he is now stonewalling Congress, not allowing- subjecting himself to the checks and balances. We swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. The politics of this be dammed. When we look back in history at what happened when a president of the United States started acting more like an authoritarian leader than the leader of the free world, the question is, is what will we have done? And I believe the Congress should do its job.

Don Lemon:
Senator Booker, thank you very much. Secretary Castro, what's your response?

Sec. Julián Castro:
I agree. I was the first of the candidates to call on Congress to begin impeachment proceedings. There are 10 different incidents that Robert Mueller has pointed out where this president either obstructed justice or attempted to obstruct justice. And I believe that they should go proceedings. As to the question of what my Department of Justice would do, I agree with those who say that a president should not direct an attorney general specifically to prosecute or not prosecute. However, I believe that the evidence is plain and clear and that if it gets that far, that you're likely to see a prosecution of Donald Trump.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Secretary. Mayor de Blasio, I'm going to bring you in. What's your response?

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
I think it's obvious at this point in our history that the president has committed the crimes worthy of impeachment. But I want to caution my fellow Democrats, while we move in every way we can for impeachment, we have to remember at the same time the American people are out there looking for us to do something for them in their lives. And what they see when they turn on the TV or go online is just talk about impeachment.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
We need more talk about working people and their lives. For example, are we really ready- and I ask people on this stage this question – are we ready to make sure that the wealthy pay their fair share in taxes? That's something every American wants to know about. That's something they want answers to right now. So, yeah, move for impeachment, but don't forget to do the people's business and to stand up for working people, because that's how we're actually going to beat Donald Trump. The best impeachment is beating him in the election of 2020.

Don Lemon:
Mayor, thank you very much. Senator Bennet, how do you respond to this conversation?

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I think, look, as we go forward here, we need to recognize a very practical reality, which is that we are four months – we've got the August recess. Then we are four months away from the Iowa Caucuses. And I just want to make sure whatever we do doesn't end up with an acquittal by Mitch McConnell in the Senate, which it surely would. And then President Trump would be running saying that he had been acquitted by the United States Congress.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I believe we have a moral obligation to beat Donald Trump. He has to be a single-term president. And we can't do anything that plays into our — his hands. We were talking earlier about climate up here. It's so important. Donald Trump should be the last climate denier that's ever in the White House.

Don Lemon:
Senator Bennet, thank you very much. Secretary Castro, please respond.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
We need to be smart about how we're running or we're going to give him a second term. We can't do it.

Don Lemon:
Secretary, please, your turn.

Sec. Julián Castro:
Let me first say that I really do believe that we can walk and chew gum at the same time. All of us have a vision for the future of the country that we're articulating to the American people. We're going to continue to do that. We have an election coming up. At the same time, Senator, you know, I think that too many folks in the Senate and in the Congress have been spooked by 1998. I believe that the times are different. And in fact, I think that folks are making a mistake by not pursuing impeachment. The Mueller Report clearly details that he deserves it.

Sec. Julián Castro:
And what's going to happen in the fall of next year, of 2020, if they don't impeach him, is he's going to say, "You see? You see? The Democrats didn't go after me on impeachment, and you know why? Because I didn't do anything wrong." These folks that always investigate me, they're always trying to go after me. When it came down to it, they didn't go after me there because I didn't do anything wrong. Conversely, if Mitch McConnell is the one that lets him off the hook, we're going to be able to say …

Don Lemon:
Secretary-

Sec. Julián Castro:
"Well, sure, they impeached him in the House, but his friend, Mitch McConnell, Moscow Mitch, let him off the hook."

Don Lemon:
Senator Bennet, please respond.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I don't disagree with that. You just said it better than I did. We have to walk and chew gum at the same time. It is incredibly unusual for members of Congress to be able to do that. And I'm glad that Secretary Castro has the ambition …

Sec. Julián Castro:
My brother can. He's here tonight.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Ah, that's what I was going to say. It's your brother that's given you that good feeling about the Congress. That's what we should do.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator. Thank you, gentlemen.

Jake Tapper:
It is time now for closing statements. You will each receive one minute. Mayor de Blasio, let's begin with you.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Thank you. For the last three years, we’ve watched Donald Trump pit working people against each other, black versus white, citizen versus immigrant. And why? So that the wealthy and the powerful he represents can hold the American dream hostage from everyone else. We can't let them get away with it. If we're going to beat Donald Trump, this has to be a party that stands for something. This has to be the party of labor unions. This has to be the party of universal healthcare. This has to be the party that's not afraid to say out loud we're going to tax the hell out of the wealthy.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
And when we do that, Donald Trump right on cue will call us socialists. Well, here's what I'll say to him. Donald, you're the real socialist. The problem is, it's socialism for the rich. We, here in this country, we don't have to take that anymore. We can fight back. If you agree that we can stand up to Donald Trump and we can stand up to the wealthy, then go to taxthehell.com and join us, so we can build a country that puts working people first.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Bennet.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
Thank you. Thank you very much. What I want to say to all of you tonight is, we have been here before as a country. We have faced challenges that we've — we actually even forget some of us tonight how hard the people fought, how hard they worked, how hard they organized, the votes they had to take, the people they had to get to the polls to make this country more democratic, more fair, and more free. And now we have a person in the White House who has no appreciation of that history, who doesn't believe in the rule of law, who doesn't believe in the independence of the judiciary, who doesn't believe that climate change is real.

Sen. Michael Bennet:
I think that we have an incredible opportunity in front of us, all of us, to come together just as our parents and grandparents did before them, and face challenges even harder than the ones that we face, but the only way we're going to be able to do it is to put the divisive politics of Donald Trump behind us and the divisive politics of the last 10 years behind us. We need to come together united against a broken Washington, make Donald Trump a one-term president, and begin to govern this country again for our kids and our grandkids who cannot do it for themselves. We have to do it for them. Please join me at michaelbennet.com. Thanks for being here tonight.

Jake Tapper:
Governor Inslee.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
For decades, we have kicked the can down the road on climate change. And now under Donald Trump, we face a looming catastrophe. But it is not too late. We have one last chance. And when you have one chance in life, you take it. Think about this – literally the survival of humanity on this planet and civilization as we know it is in the hands of the next president. And we have to have a leader who will do what is necessary to save us. And that includes making this the top priority of the next presidency.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
And I alone on this panel am making a commitment that this will be the organizing principle of my administration not the first day, but every day. And if you share my view of the urgency of this matter, I hope you'll join me, because we are up against powerful special fossil fuel interests. And it is time to stand up on our legs and confront the fossil fuel special interests. Because that is our salvation, what it depends upon.

Gov. Jay Inslee:
So I hope you will consider going to jayinslee.com and joining this effort. And I will close with this: I am confident and optimistic tonight, even in the face of this difficulty, because I know we can build a clean energy economy, I know we can save our children and our grandchildren. I know that we can defeat climate change and we will defeat Donald Trump. This is our moral responsibility and we will fulfill it. Thank you very much.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Gillibrand.

Mayor Bill de Blasio:
Donald Trump has really torn apart the moral fabric of this country, dividing us on every racial line, every religious line, every socioeconomic line he can find. I'm running for president because I want to help people, and I actually have the experience and the ability to do that. I've brought Congress together and actually made a difference in people's lives.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I also know how to beat Donald Trump. He has broken his promises to the American people. I've taken this fight directly to his backyard in Michigan and Ohio and in Pennsylvania, and I'll go to all the places in this country. I will fight for your family. It doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter where you live, it doesn't matter who you love, because that's my responsibility.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:
I've done this before. I started out in a 2-to-1 Republican district. I won it twice. I've never lost an election since. And I not only bring people together electorally, but also legislatively. I get things done. So we need a president who's not afraid of the big challenges, of the big fights. There is no false choice. We don't need a liberal or progressive with big ideas or we don't need a moderate who can win back Trump-Obama voters. You need someone who can do both. And that's who I am. Please go to kirstengillibrand.com so I can make the next debate stage.

Jake Tapper:
Congresswoman Gabbard.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
Thank you. Donald Trump and war-mongering politicians in Washington have failed us. They continue to escalate tensions with other nuclear armed countries like Russia and China and North Korea, starting a new Cold War, pushing us closer and closer to the brink of nuclear catastrophe. Now, as we stand here tonight, there are thousands of nuclear missiles pointed at us. And if we were to get an attack right here tonight, you'd have 30 minutes, 30 minutes before we were hit and you would receive an alert like the one we received in Hawaii last year that would say, "Incoming missile. Seek immediate shelter. This is not a drill." Seek immediate shelter. This is not a drill, and you would see, as we did, as my loved ones in what you did. There is no shelter. This is the war-mongers hoax. There is no shelter.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard:
It's all a lie. As president, I will end this insanity because it doesn't have to be this way. I will end these wasteful regime change wars work to end this new Cold War through the use of diplomacy, to de-escalate these tensions and take the trillions of dollars that we've been wasting on these wars and on these weapons and redirect those resources into serving the needs of our people right here at home. Things like healthcare for all, making sure everyone in this country has clean water to drink and clean air to breathe. Investing in education, investing in our infrastructure. The needs are great. As your president, I will put your interests above all else.

Jake Tapper:
Secretary Castro.

Sec. Julián Castro:
First of all, let me say thank you to you, Jake, Dana, and Don and everybody here and those watching. This election is all about. What kind of nation we're gonna become? You and I, we stand on the shoulders of folks who have made beds and made sacrifices. People that fought in wars and fought discrimination. Folks that pick crops and stood in picket lines and they helped build the wonderful nation that we live in today. Donald Trump has not been bashful in his cruelty. And I'm not going to be bashful in my common sense and compassion.

Sec. Julián Castro:
I believe that we need leadership that understands that we need to move forward as one nation with one destiny, our destiny. In the years to come is to be the smartest, the healthiest, the fairest and the most prosperous nation on earth. If you want to help me build that America for the future, I hope you'll go to JuliánCastro.com. And on January 20th, 2021, we'll say together, "Adios to Donald Trump."

Jake Tapper:
Mr. Yang.

Andrew Yang:
You know what the talking heads couldn't stop talking about after the last debate? It's not the fact that I'm somehow number four on the stage in national polling. It was the fact that I wasn't wearing a tie. Instead of talking about automation and our future, including the fact that we automated away 4 million manufacturing jobs, hundreds of thousands right here in Michigan, we're up here with makeup on our faces and our rehearsed attack lines, playing roles in this reality TV show.

Andrew Yang:
It's one reason why we elected a reality TV star as our president. We need to be laser-focused on solving the real challenges of today, like the fact that the most common jobs in America may not exist in a decade, or that most Americans cannot pay their bills. My flagship proposal, the freedom dividend, would put $1,000 a month into the hands of every American adult. It would be a game-changer for millions of American families.

Andrew Yang:
If you care more about your family and your kids than my neckwear, enter your zip code at yang2020.com and see what $1,000 a month would mean to your community. I have done the math. It’s not left; it’s not right. It’s forward. And that is how we’re going to beat Donald Trump in 2020.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Harris.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
So in my background as attorney general of California, I took on the big banks who preyed on the homeowners, many of whom lost their homes and will never be able to buy another. I've taken on the for profit colleges who preyed on students, put them out of business. I've preyed on transnational criminal organizations that have preyed on women and children. And I will tell you, we have a predator living in the White House. And I'm going to tell you something. Donald Trump has predatory nature and predatory instincts. And the thing about predators is this. By their very nature, they prey on people they perceive to be weak. They prey on people they perceive to be vulnerable. They prey on people who are in need of help, often desperate for help. And predators are cowards.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
What we need is someone who is going to be on that debate stage with Donald Trump and defeat him by being able to prosecute the case against four more years. And let me tell you, we've got a long rap sheet. We're looking at someone who passed a tax bill benefiting the top one percent and the biggest corporations in this country when he said he would help working families.

Sen. Kamala Harris:
We've got a person who has put babies in cages and separated children from their parents. We have someone who passed his so-called trade policy. That was trade policy by tweet and has resulted in attacks on American families. So we must defeat him. And then in turning the page, write the next chapter for our country. And that has to be written in a way that recognizes what wakes people up at 3:00 in the morning. And that is my agenda. The 3:00 a.m. agenda that is focused on giving folks the jobs they need, getting their children the education they need. Making sure they have the healthcare they need and the future they deserve. So please join me at Kamala Harris.org. And I thank you for your time.

Jake Tapper:
Vice President Biden.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for Detroit hosting this. Look, I've said it many times and I think everyone agrees with this. We're in a battle for the soul of America. This most consequential election, any one of you, no matter how old or young you are, as ever, ever participated in four more years of Donald Trump will go down as an aberration. Hard to overcome. The damage is done. But we can overcome it. Eight more years of Donald Trump will change America in a fundamental way. The America, we know, will no longer exist.

Vice President Joe Biden:
Everybody knows who Donald Trump is. We have to let him know who we are. We choose science over fiction. We choose hope over fear. We choose unity over division. And we choose. We choose the idea that we can, as Americans, when we do act together, do anything. This is the United States of America. We've acted together. We have never, never, never been unable to overcome whatever the problem was. If you agree with me, go to Joe 30330 and help me in this fight. Thank you very much.

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: 2019 Democratic Primary Debate – Night 1

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Democratic Primary Debate – Night 1 transcript powered by Sonix—the best video to text transcription service

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Dana Bash:
Time now for opening statements. You'll each receive one minute? Governor Steve Bullock, please begin.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Thanks, Dana. I come from a state where a lot of people voted for Donald Trump. Let's not kid ourselves. He will be hard to beat. Yet watching that last debate, folks seem more concerned about scoring points or outdoing each other with wish-list economics than making sure Americans know we hear their voices and will help their lives.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Look, I'm a pro-choice, pro-union Populist Democrat that won three elections in a red state, not by compromising our values, but by getting stuff done. That's how we win back the places we lost – showing up, listening, focusing on the challenges of everyday Americans. That farmer getting hit right now by Trump's trade wars, that teacher working a second job just to afford her insulin, they can't wait for a revolution. Their problems are in the here and now. I'm a Progressive, emphasis on progress, and I'm running for president to get stuff done for all those Americans Washington has left behind.

Dana Bash:
Marianne Williamson.

Marianne Williamson:
Thank you. In 1776, our founders brought forth on this planet an extraordinary new possibility. It was the idea that people, no matter who they were, would simply have the possibility of thriving. We have not ever totally actualized this ideal, but at the times when we have done best, we have tried. And when forces have opposed them, generations of Americans have risen up and pushed back against those forces. We did that with abolition, and with women's suffrage, and with civil rights.

Marianne Williamson:
Now, it is time for a generation of Americans to rise up again, for an amoral economic system has turned short-term profits for huge multinational corporations into a false god. This new false god takes precedence over the safety, and the health, and the well-being of we, the American people, and the people of the world, and the planet on which we live. Conventional politics will not solve this problem because conventional politics is part of the problem. We, the American people, must rise up, and do what we do best, and create a new possibility. Say no to what we don't want and yes to what we know can be true. I'm Marianne Williamson, and that's why I'm running for president.

Dana Bash:
Congressman John Delaney.

Congressman John Delaney:
Folks, we have a choice. We can go down the road that Senator Sanders and Senator Warren want to take us with bad policies like Medicare for All, free, everything, and impossible promises that'll turn off independent voters and get Trump re-elected. That's what happened with McGovern. That's what happened with Mondale. That's what happened with Dukakis. Or we can nominate someone with new ideas to create universal healthcare for every American with choice; someone who wants to unify our country, and grow the economy, and create jobs everywhere. Then we win the White House.

Congressman John Delaney:
I'm the product of the American dream. I believe in it. I'm the grandson of immigrants, the son of a construction worker. My wife, April, and I have four amazing daughters. I was the youngest CEO in the history of New York Stock Exchange, created thousands of jobs, and then served in Congress. That's the type of background, and my platform is about real solutions, not impossible promises that can beat Trump and govern. Thank you,

Dana Bash:
Congressman Tim Ryan.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
America is great, but not everyone can access America's greatness. The systems that were built to lift us up are now suffocating the American people. The economic system that used to create $30-, $40-, $50-an-hour jobs that you could have a good solid middle-class living now force us to have two or three jobs just to get by. Most families, when they go to sit at the kitchen table to do their bills, they get a pit in the middle of their stomach. We deserve better.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
The political system is broken, too, because the entire conversation is about left or right – where're you at on the political system? I'm here to say this isn't about left or right, this is about new and better. And it's not about reforming old systems, it's about building new systems. Tonight, I will offer solutions that are bold, that are realistic, and that are a clean break from the past.

Dana Bash:
Gov. John Hickenlooper.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Last year, Democrats flipped 40 Republican seats in the House and not one of those 40 Democrats supported the policies of our front runners at center stage. Now I share their progressive values, but I'm a little more pragmatic. I was out of work for two whole years until I started what became the largest brewpub in America. I learned the small, best- small business lessons of how to provide service, and teamwork, and became a top mayor, and as Governor of Colorado, became the number-one economy in the country. We also expanded healthcare and reproductive rights. We attacked climate change head on. We beat the NRA. We did not build massive government expansions.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Some will promise a bill tonight, or a plan for tonight. What we focused on was making sure that we got people together to get things done, to provide solutions to problems, to make sure that we worked together and created jobs. That's how we're gonna beat Donald Trump. That's how we're gonna win Michigan and the country.

Dana Bash:
Senator Amy Klobuchar.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Let's get real. Tonight we debate, but ultimately, we have to beat Donald Trump. My background, it's a little different than his. I stand before you today as the granddaughter of an iron ore miner, as the daughter of a union teacher, and a newspaperman, as a first woman elected to the U.S. Senate from the State of Minnesota, and a candidate for president of the United States. That's because we come from a country of shared dreams.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I have had it with the racist attacks. I have had it with a president that says one thing on TV that has your back, and then you get home, and you see those charges for prescription drugs, and cable, and college. You're gonna hear a lot of promises up here, but I'm gonna tell you this – yes, I have bold ideas, but they are grounded in reality, and yes, I will make some simple promises. I can win this. I'm from the Midwest, and I have won every race, every place, every time. I will govern with integrity, the integrity worthy of the extraordinary people of this nation.

Dana Bash:
Congressman Beto O'Rourke.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I'm running for president because I believe that America discovers its greatness at its moments of greatest need. This moment will define us forever, and I believe that in this test, America will be redeemed. In the face of cruelty and fear from a lawless president, we will choose to be the nation that stands up for the human rights of everyone, for the rule of law – for everyone – and a democracy that serves everyone.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
Whatever our differences, we know that before we are anything else, we are Americans first, and we will ensure that each one of us is well enough, and educated enough, and paid enough to realize our full potential. We will meet these challenges here at home, and we will lead the world in those that we face abroad, successfully confronting endless war and climate change. At this moment of truth, let us pursue our national promise and make a more perfect union of everyone, by everyone, and for everyone.

Dana Bash:
Mayor Pete Buttigieg.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I'm running for president because our country is running out of time. It is even bigger than the emergency of the Trump presidency. Ask yourself how somebody like Donald Trump ever gets within cheating distance of the Oval Office in the first place. It doesn't happen unless America is already in a crisis. An economy that's not working for everyone. Endless war. Climate change. We have lived this in my industrial Midwestern hometown. My generation has lived this as long as we have been alive, and it's only accelerating.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Science tells us we have 12 years before we reach the horizon of catastrophe, when it comes to our climate. By 2030, the average house in this country will cost half a million bucks, and a woman's right to choose may not even exist. We are not going to be able to meet this moment by recycling the same arguments, policies, and politicians that have dominated Washington for as long as I have been alive. We've got to summon the courage to walk away from the past and do something different. This is our shot. That is why I'm running for president.

Dana Bash:
Senator Elizabeth Warren.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Donald Trump disgraces the office of Presidents every single day. Anyone on this stage tonight or tomorrow night would be a far better president. I promise, no matter who our candidate is, I will work my heart out to beat Donald Trump and to elect a Democratic Congress. But our problems didn't start with Donald Trump. Donald Trump is part of a corrupt, rigged system that has helped the wealthy, and the well-connected and kicked dirt in the faces of everyone else.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
We're not gonna solve the urgent problems that we face with small ideas and spinelessness. We're gonna solve them by being the Democratic Party of big structural change. We need to be the party that fights for our democracy and our economy to work for everyone. I know what's broken in this country, I know how to fix it, and I will fight to make it happen.

Dana Bash:
Senator Bernie Sanders.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Tonight in America, as we speak, 87 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured, but the healthcare industry made a hundred billion dollars in profits last year. Tonight, as we speak, right now, 500,000 Americans are sleeping out on the street, and yet companies like Amazon that made billions in profits did not pay one nickel in federal income tax. Tonight, half of the American people are living paycheck to paycheck, and yet 49 percent of all new income goes to the top one percent.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Tonight, the fossil fuel industry continues to receive hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies and tax breaks while they destroy this planet. We have got to take on Trump's racism, his sexism, xenophobia and come together in an unprecedented grassroots movement to not only defeat Trump, but to transform our economy and our government.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Sanders. Let's start the debate with the number-one issue for Democratic voters – healthcare. Senator Sanders let's start with you. You support Medicare for All, which would eventually take private health insurance away from more than 150 million Americans in exchange for government-sponsored healthcare for everyone. Congressman Delaney just referred to it as bad policy, and previously, he has called the idea political suicide that will just get President Trump re-elected. What do you say to Congressman Delaney?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
You're wrong. Right now, we have a dysfunctional healthcare system – 87 million uninsured or underinsured; 500,000 Americans every year going bankrupt because of medical bills; 30,000 people dying while the healthcare industry makes tens of billions of dollars in profit.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Five minutes away from here, John, is a country. It's called Canada. They guarantee healthcare to every man, woman, and child as a human right. They spend half of what we spend. By the way, when you end up in a hospital in Canada, you come out with no bill at all. Healthcare is a human right, not a privilege. I believe that. I will fight for that.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Sanders. Congressman Delaney?

Congressman John Delaney:
Well, I'm right about this. We can create a universal healthcare system to give everyone basic healthcare for free, and I have a proposal to do it, but we don't have to go around and be the party of subtraction and telling half the country who has private health insurance that their health insurance is illegal. My dad, the union electrician, loved the healthcare he got from the IBEW. He would never want someone to take that away. Half of Medicare beneficiaries now have Medicare Advantage, which is private insurance or supplemental plans. It's also bad policy. It'll underfund the industry. Many hospitals will close-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressmen. Senator Sanders, I wanted-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, my name was also mentioned in this-

Jake Tapper:
-we're gonna come to you in one second but let me go to Senator Sanders right now. Senator Sanders?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
The fact of the matter is tens of millions of people lose their health insurance every single year when they change jobs, or their employer changes that insurance. If you want stability in the healthcare system, if you want a system which gives you freedom of choice with regard to doctor or hospital, which is a system which will not bankrupt you, the answer is to get rid of the profiteering of the drug companies-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-and the insurance companies-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, sir [cross talk]

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-and move to Medicare for All.

Congressman John Delaney:
But now he's talking about a different issue. What I'm talking about is really simple. We should deal with the tragedy of the uninsured and give everyone healthcare as a right, but why do we gotta be the party of taking something away from people?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
No- no one is the party [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Hold on one second, Senator-

Congressman John Delaney:
That's what they're running on-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
No!

Congressman John Delaney:
They're running on telling half the country that your health insurance is illegal. It says it right in the bill-

Jake Tapper:
All right, thank you-

Congressman John Delaney:
We don't have to do that. We can give everyone healthcare and allow people to have choice. That's the American way.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Look-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. Senator Warren?

So, look, let's be clear about this. We are the Democrats. We are not about trying to take away healthcare from anyone. That's what the Republicans are trying to do. We should stop using Republican talking points in order to talk with each other about how to best provide that healthcare. Now, I want to have a chance to tell the story about my friend Eddie Barkan. Eddie is 35 years old. He has a wife, Rachel. He has a cute little boy named Carl. He also has ALS, and it's killing him. Eddie has health insurance; good health insurance, and-

Jake Tapper:
Senator … I'm coming right- I'm staying with you. I'm staying with you, but you exceeded your time. Let me just stay with you on Medicare for All.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
All right.

Jake Tapper:
At the last debate, you said you're, "with Bernie on Medicare for All." Now, Senator Sanders has said that people in the middle class will pay more in taxes to help pay for Medicare for All, though that will be offset by the elimination of insurance premiums and other costs. Are you also, "with Bernie on Medicare for All," when it comes to raising taxes on middle-class Americans to pay for it?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, giant corporations and billionaires are going to pay more; middle class families are going to pay less out of pocket for their healthcare. I'd like to finish talking about Eddie, the guy who has ALS- this isn't funny. This is somebody who has health insurance, and he's dying. Every month, he has about $9,000 in medical bills that his insurance company won't cover. His wife, Rachel, is on the phone for hours, and hours, and hours, begging the insurance company, "Please cover what the doctors say he needs." He talks about what it's like to go online with thousands of other people to beg friends, family, and strangers for money so he can cover his medical expenses. The basic profit model of an insurance company is take in as much money as you can in premiums and pay out as little as possible in healthcare coverage. That is not working for Americans across this country-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you- thank you, Senator.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Medicare for All will fix that, and that's why I'll fight for it.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Just a point of clarification and 15 extra seconds – would you raise taxes on the middle class to pay for Medicare for All, offset obviously by the elimination of insurance premiums, yes or no?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Costs will go up for billionaires and go up for corporations. For middle class families, costs – total costs- will go down [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Governor Bullock, I wanna bring you in. You do not support Medicare for All. How do you respond to Senator Warren?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
No. Healthcare is so personal to all of us. Never forget when my 12-year-old son had a heart attack within 24 hours of his life; had to be life flighted to Salt Lake City. But because we had good insurance, he's here with me tonight. At the end of the day, I'm not gonna support any plan that rips away quality healthcare from individuals. This is an example of wish-list economics. It used to be just Republicans wanted to repeal and replace. Now, many Democrats do, as well. We can get there with a public option, negotiated drug prices, indeed-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor Bullock. I wanna bring in Mayor Buttigieg on the topic of whether or not the middle class should pay higher taxes in exchange for guaranteed healthcare and the elimination of insurance premiums. How do you respond, Mayor?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
So, we don't have to stand up here speculating about whether the public option will be better than- or a Medicare for All environment will be better than the corporate options. We can put it to the test. That's the concept of my 'Medicare for All Who Want It' proposal. That way, if people like me are right that the public alternative is going to be not only more comprehensive, but more affordable than any of the corporate options around there, we'll see Americans walk away from the corporate options into that Medicare option, and it will become Medicare for All [cross talk] without us having to kick anybody off of their insurance-

Jake Tapper:
Just 15 seconds on the clarification. You are willing to raise taxes on middle-class Americans in order to have universal coverage with the disappearance of insurance premiums, yes or no?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I think you can buy into it. That's the idea of 'Medicare for All Who Want It.' Look, this is a distinction without a difference, whether you're paying the same money in the form of taxes or premiums. In this country, if you have health coverage … If you don't have healthcare coverage, you're paying too much for care, and if you do have health coverage, you're paying too much for care-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor Buttigieg. I want to bring in Congressman O'Rourke on the topic of whether the middle class should pay higher taxes in exchange for universal coverage and the elimination of insurance premiums. What's your response?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
The answer is no. The middle class will not pay more in taxes in order to ensure that every American is guaranteed world-class healthcare. I think we're being offered a false choice; some who want to improve the Affordable Care Act at the margins; others who want a Medicare for All program that will force people off of private insurance. I have a better path – Medicare for America. Everyone who is uninsured is enrolled in Medicare tomorrow. Those who are insufficiently insured [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Congressman-

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
-are enrolled in Medicare-

Jake Tapper:
Just to 15 seconds-

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
-and those who have employer-sponsored insurance [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Who is offering a false choice here?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
Jake, this is important. You have some- Governor Bullock, who's said that we will improve the Affordable Care Act at the margins with a public option. You have others to my right, who are talking about taking away people's choice for the private insurance they have, or members of unions … I was listening to [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
-Taylor in Nevada. His members [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
-let me bring in Governor Bullock, he just [cross talk]

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
-want the healthcare they're offering up for [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
-he just said you're offering a false choice, sir.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Congressman, not at all. It took us decades of false starts to get the Affordable Care Act. So, let's actually build on it – a public option allowing anyone to buy in. We pay more for prescription drugs than any place, actually, in the world. We've got nothing to show for it. Negotiate prescription drug prices, end surprise medical billings. That's the way that we can get there without disrupting the lives of 160 million people to elect their employer-sponsored health insurance.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman O'Rourke, you can respond.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
Every estimate that I've seen of expanding ACA, even through a public option, still leaves millions of people uninsured and also means that people are not guaranteed the healthcare that they need, as the examples that Senator Warren showed us. Our plan ensures that everyone is enrolled in Medicare or can keep their employer-sponsored insurance. When we listened to the American people, and this is what they want us to do – they want everyone covered, but they want to be able to maintain choice-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
-and our plan does that.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. I wanna bring in Senator Klobuchar. Senator Warren, at the beginning of the night, said that Democrats cannot bring- cannot win the White House with small ideas and spinelessness. In the last debate, she said the politicians who are not supporting Medicare for All simply lack the will to fight for it. You do not support Medicare for All. Is Senator Warren correct? Do you just not lack the will to fight for it?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
That is incorrect. I just have a better way to do this. In one of my first debates, Jake, I was called a street fighter from the Iron Range by my opponent. When she said it, I said thank you. This is what I think we need to get done. We need the public option. That's what Barack Obama wanted, and it would bring healthcare costs down for everyone.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
By the way, I just don't buy this. I've heard some of these candidates say that it's somehow not moral if you- not moral to not have that public option. Well, Senator Sanders was actually on a public option bill last year, and that was, Bernie, the Medicaid public option bill that Senator Schatz introduced. Clearly this is the easiest way to move forward quickly, and I wanna get things done. People can't wait. I've got my friend Nicole out there, whose son actually died trying to ration his insulin, as a restaurant manager. He died because he didn't have enough money to pay for it. Bernie and I have worked on pharmaceutical issues together-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-and we can get less expensive drugs-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
As the author of-

Jake Tapper:
Senator Sanders- I'm going to go to Senator Sanders, then Senator Warren, because you both were mentioned. Senator Sanders?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
As the author … As the author of the Medicare Bill, let me clear up one thing. As people talk about having insurance, there are millions of people who have insurance. They can't go to the doctor, and when they come out of the hospital, they go bankrupt. All right? What I am talking about and others up here are talking about is no deductibles and no copayments. Jake, your question is a Republican talking point. At the end of the day … By the way, and by the way … By the way, the healthcare industry will be advertising tonight on this program.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Senator Warren, it's your turn.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Oh, can I complete that, please?

Jake Tapper:
Your time was up. 30 seconds.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
They will be advertising tonight with that talking point.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Warren.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, we have to think of this in terms of the big frame. What's the problem in Washington? It works great for the wealthy. It works great for those who can hire armies of lobbyists and lawyers. And it keeps working great for the insurance companies and the drug companies. What it's going to take is real courage to fight back against them. These insurance companies do not have a God-given right to make $23 billion dollars in profits and suck it out of our healthcare system.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
They do not have a God-given right-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Unidentified:
On page eight of the bill, it said that [cross talk]

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-to put forms in place [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
I wanna let Congressman Delaney-

Unidentified:
-it will kick everyone off of their insurance [cross talk]

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
so that people cannot – they want to deny coverage.

Jake Tapper:
-thank you, Senator. If we could all just stick to the rules of the time, that would be great. Congressman Delaney?

Congressman John Delaney:
So, I was the only- I'm the only one on the stage who actually has experience in the healthcare business, and with all due respect, I don't think my colleagues understand the business. We have the public option-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
It's not a business-

Congressman John Delaney:
-which is great. The public option is great, but it doesn't go far enough. It doesn't go far enough. I'm proposing universal healthcare, where everyone gets healthcare, as a basic human right, for free, but they have choices. My plan, 'Better Care,' is fully paid for without raising middle-class tax options. So, when we think about this debate-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman John Delaney:
-there's Medicare for All, which-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman John Delaney:
-is extreme.

Jake Tapper:
I wanna bring in Governor [cross talk] I wanna bring in Governor Hickenlooper. Governor Hickenlooper, I'd like to hear what you have to say about Senator Warren's suggestion that those people on the stage who are not in favor of Medicare for All lack the political will to fight for it.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Well, obviously, I disagree with that, as much as I respect both of the senators to my right. You know, I think it comes down to that question of Americans being used to being able to make choices; to have the right to make a decision. And I think proposing a public option that allows some form of Medicare that maybe is a combination of Medicare Advantage and Medicare, but people choose it … If enough people choose, it expands. The quality improves; the cost comes down; more people choose it. Eventually, in 15 years, you could get there, but it would be an evolution, not a revolution.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Warren?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
You know, we have tried this experiment with the insurance companies. And what they've done is they've sucked billions of dollars out of our healthcare system and they've forced people to have to fight to try to get the healthcare coverage that their doctors and nurses say that they need. Why does everybody- why does every doctor, why does every hospital have to fill out so many complicated forms? It's because it gives insurance companies a chance to say no and to push that cost back on the patient-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Warren-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-that's what we have to fight.

Jake Tapper:
-I wanna bring in Marianne Williamson. Ms. Williamson, how do you respond to the criticism from Senator Warren that you're not willing to fight for Medicare for All?

Marianne Williamson:
I don't know if Senator Warren said that about me specifically. I admire very much what Senator Warren has said, and what Bernie has said, but I have to say, I have a … I'm normally way over there with Bernie and Elizabeth on this one. I hear the others. I have some concern about that, as well. And I do have concern about what the Republicans would say, and that's not just a Republican talking point. I do have concern that it will be difficult. I have concern that it will make it harder to win. And I have a concern that it will make it harder to govern, because if that's our big fight-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Ms. Williamson-

Marianne Williamson:
-then the Republicans will so shut us down on everything else.

Jake Tapper:
I'm gonna bring in Mayor Buttigieg. Mayor, Buttigieg, your response?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
It is time to stop worrying about what the Republicans will say. Look, if it's true that if we embrace a far-left agenda, they're gonna say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. If we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. So, let's just stand up for the right policy, go out there, and defend it. That's the policy I'm putting forward. Not because I think it's the right triangulation between Republicans here and Democrats here; because I think it's the right answer for people like my mother-in-law, who is here, whose life was saved by the ACA, but who is still far too vulnerable to the fact that the insurance industry does not care about her-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor Buttigieg. Senator Sanders, your response?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Let's be clear what this debate is about. Nobody can defend the dysfunctionality of the current system. What we are taking on is the fact that over the last 20 years, the drug companies and the insurance companies have spent $4.5 billion of your health insurance money on lobbying and campaign contributions. That is why, when I went to Canada the other day, people paid one tenth the price in Canada for insulin-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-that they're paying in the United States.

Jake Tapper:
I want to bring in Congressman Tim Ryan. Congressman Ryan, your response?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Here we are in Detroit, home of the United Auto Workers. We have all our union friends here tonight. This plan that's being offered by Senator Warren and Senator Sanders will tell those union members who gave away wages in order to get good healthcare that they're going to lose their healthcare because Washington's gonna come in and tell them they've got a better plan. This is the left and right thing. New and better is this – move Medicare down the 50, allow people to buy in. Kaiser Permanente said that if those 60 million people do that, they will see a 40-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
-percent reduction in their healthcare costs. Let businesses buy in, Jake, and-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. So, Senator, let's talk about that. If Medicare for All is enacted, there are more than 600,000 union members here in Michigan who would be forced to give up their private healthcare plans. Now, I understand that it would provide universal coverage, but can you guarantee those union members that the benefits under Medicare for All will be as good as the benefits that their representatives, their union reps, fought hard to negotiate?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Well, two things. They will be better, because Medicare for All is comprehensive. It covers all healthcare needs for senior citizens. It will finally include dental care, hearing aids, and eyeglasses-

Congressman Tim Ryan:
But you don't know-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Second of all-

Congressman Tim Ryan:
You don't know that, Bernie.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Second of all [cross talk] I do know, and I wrote the damned bill. Second of all, second of all, many of our union brothers and sisters – nobody wore pro-union than me up here – are now paying high deductibles and copayments. And when we do Medicare for All, instead of having the company putting money into healthcare, they can get decent wage increases, which they're not getting today [cross talk]

Jake Tapper:
I wanna bring in Congressman Ryan to respond to what Senator Sanders has said.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
I mean, Senator Sanders does not know all of the union contracts in the United States. I'm trying to explain that these union members are losing their jobs. Their wages have been stagnant. The world is crumbling around them. The only thing they have is possibly really good healthcare. And the Democratic message is gonna be, "We're gonna go in, and the only thing you have left, we're gonna take it, and we're gonna do better." I do not think that's a recipe for success for us. It's bad policy, and it's certainly bad politics.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman Delaney?

Congressman John Delaney:
So, the bill that Senator Sanders drafted, by definition, will lower quality in healthcare, because it says specifically that the rates will be the same as current Medicare rates. And the data is clear, Medicare does not cover the cost of healthcare. It covers 80 percent of the costs of healthcare in this country, and private insurance covers 120 percent.

Congressman John Delaney:
So, if you start underpaying all the healthcare providers, you're gonna create a two-tier market where wealthy people buy their healthcare with cash, and the people who are forced, like my dad, the union electrician, who will have that healthcare plan taken away from him-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman.

Congressman John Delaney:
-they will be forced into an underfunded system.

Jake Tapper:
I want to give Senator Sanders- I wanna give Senator Sanders a chance to respond.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
All right, on the Medicare for All, the hospitals will save substantial sums of money because they're not gonna be spending a fortune doing billing and the other bureaucratic things that they have to do today-

Congressman John Delaney:
I've done the math. It doesn't add up.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-second of all … Maybe you did that and made money off the healthcare, but our job is to run a non-profit healthcare system. Furthermore, furthermore, when we save $500 billion a year by ending all of the incredible complexities that are driving every American crazy, trying to deal with the health insurance companies-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-hospitals will be better off than they are today-

Jake Tapper:
Congressman Delaney, I wanna let you have a chance to respond.

Congressman John Delaney:
Listen, his math is wrong. That's all I'm saying. If his math is wrong, it's been well-documented that if all the bills were paid at Medicare rate, which is specifically – I think it's in Section 1200 of their bill, then many hospitals in this country would close. I've been going around rural America, and I asked rural hospital administrators one question – if all your bills were paid at the Medicare rate last year, what would happen? They all look at me and say, "We would close." But the question is why do we have to be so extreme? Why can't we just give everyone healthcare as a right and allow them to have choice?

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman.

Congressman John Delaney:
I'm starting to think this is not about healthcare-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman John Delaney:
This is an anti-private-sector strategy.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman. We're gonna move on- we're gonna move on to the issue of immigration now. There is widespread agreement on this stage on the need for immigration reform, a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, including dreamers, but there are some areas of disagreement. Mayor Buttigieg, you're in favor of getting rid of the law that makes it a crime to come across the U.S. border illegally. Why won't that just encourage more illegal immigration?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
When I am president, illegally crossing the border will still be illegal. We can argue over the finer points of which parts of this ought to be handled by civil law, and which parts ought to be handled by criminal law, but we've got a crisis on our hands. And it's not just a crisis of immigration, it's a crisis of cruelty and incompetence that has created a humanitarian disaster on our southern border. It is a stain on the United States of America.

Americans want comprehensive immigration reform. And frankly, we've been talking about the same framework for my entire adult lifetime – protections for dreamers, making sure that that we have a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented, cleaning up lawful immigration. We know what to do. We know the border security can be part of that package, and we can still be a nation of laws. The problem is we haven't had the will to get it done in Washington. And now, we have a president who could fix it in a month, because there is that bipartisan agreement, but he needs it to be a crisis rather than an achievement. That will end on my watch.

Dana Bash:
Just point of clarification. You did raise your hand in the last debate. You do want to decriminalize crossing the border illegally-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
In my view, if fraud is involved, then that's suitable for the criminal statute. If not, then it should be handled under civil law. But these show of hands are exactly what is wrong with the way that this race is being [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
We're not- we're not doing that here.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I appreciate that.

Dana Bash:
Congressman- thank you. Congressman O'Rourke, you live near the U.S.-Mexico border in El Paso. You disagree with Mayor Buttigieg on decriminalizing illegal border crossings. Please respond.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I do, because in my administration, after we have waived citizenship fees for green card holders, more than nine million of our fellow Americans, free dreamers … For many, fear of deportation, and stopped criminally prosecuting families and children for seeking asylum and refuge, and for-profit detention in this country. Then assist those countries in Central America so that no family ever has to make that 2,000-mile journey. Then I expect that people who come here follow our laws, and we reserve the right to criminally prosecute them if they do not.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman. Senator Warren, you say the provision making illegal border crossings a crime is totally unnecessary. Please respond.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, the problem is that, right now, the criminalization statute is what gives Donald Trump the ability to take children away from their parents. It's what gives him the ability to lock up people at our borders. We need to continue to have border security and we can do that, but what we can't do is not live our values. I've been down to the border. I have seen the mothers. I have seen the cages of babies. We must be a country that every day lives our values, and that means we cannot make-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren, just to clarify-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-a crime, when someone comes here.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator. Just to clarify, would you decriminalize illegal border crossings?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Yes. The point is not about criminalization. That has given Donald Trump the tool to break families apart.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator [cross talk] Governor Hickenlooper, your response?

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
No, I agree that we need secure borders. There's no question about that. The frustration with what's going on in Washington is they're kicking the ball back and forth. Secure the borders; make sure whatever law we have doesn't allow children to be snatched from their parents and put in cages. How hard can that be? We've got … I know, on the two debate nights, we've got 170 years of Washington experience. Somehow it seems like that should be fairly fixable.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Well, and one way to fix it is to decriminalize. That's the whole point. What we're looking for here is a way to take away the tools that Donald Trump has used-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-to break up families.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren. Senator Klobuchar, your response?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I would say there is the will to change this in Congress. What's missing is the right person in the White House. I believe that immigrants don't diminish America. They are America. And if you wanna do something about border security, you first of all change the rules, so people can seek asylum in those [inaudible] countries. Then, you pass the bill, and what the bill will do is it'll rightly reduce the deficit and give us some money for border security, and for border- help processing the cases. Most of all, it will allow for a path to citizenship, because this is not just about the border. Donald Trump-

Dana Bash:
Thank you-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-wants to use these people as political pawns-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Klobuchar-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-when we have people all over our country that simply want to work and obey the law.

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Senator Sanders, you want to provide undocumented immigrants free healthcare and free college. Why won't this drive even more people to come to the U.S. illegally?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Because we'll have a strong border protection. But the main point I want to make is that what Trump is doing, through his racism and his xenophobia, is demonizing a group of people. And as president, I will end that demonization. If a mother and a child walk thousands of miles on a dangerous path, in my view, they are not criminals. They are people fleeing violence.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
I think the main thing that we've gotta do, among many others, and Beto made this point, we've got to ask ourselves, why are people walking 2,000 miles to a strange country where they don't know the language? What we will do, the first week we are in the White House, is bring the entire hemisphere together to talk about how we rebuild Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador, so people do not have to flee their own country.

Dana Bash:
Thank you- Thank you, Senator. Governor Bullock, about two-thirds of Democratic voters and many of your rivals here for the nomination support giving health insurance to undocumented immigrants. You haven't gone that far. Why not?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Look, I think this is part of the discussion that shows how often these debates are detached from people's lives. We've got 100,000 people showing up at the border right now. If we decriminalize entry, if we give healthcare to everyone, we'll have multiples of that. Don't take my word. That was President Obama's Homeland Security Secretary that said that.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
The biggest problem right now that we have with immigration, it's Donald Trump. He's using immigration to not only rip apart families but rip apart this country. We can actually get to the point where we have safe borders, where we have a path to citizenship, where we have opportunities for dreamers, and you don't have to decriminalize everything. What you have to do is have a president in there with the judgment and the decency to treat someone that comes to the border like one of our own.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
You know, I'd [cross talk] just like to add on this-

Dana Bash:
Senator, he just said your plan is unrealistic. How do you respond?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
You know, I think that what we have to do is we have to be an America that is clear about what we want to do with immigration. We need to expand legal immigration. We need to create a path for citizenship, not just for dreamers, but for grandmas and for people who have been working here in the farms and for students who have overstayed their visas. We need to fix the crisis at the border. And a big part of how we do that is we do not play into Donald Trump's hands. He wants to stir up the crisis at the border, because that's his overall message. "If there's anything wrong in your life, blame them!"

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren. Governor Bullock, your response.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
But you are playing into Donald Trump's hands. The challenge isn't that it's a criminal offense to cross the border. The challenge is that Donald Trump is president and using this to rip families apart. A sane immigration system needs a sane leader, and we can do that without decriminalize providing healthcare for everyone. And it's not me saying that. That's Obama's Homeland Security Secretary that said you'll cause further problems at the border, not making it better.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
What you're saying is ignore the law. Laws matter, and it matters if we say our law is that we will lock people up who come here seeking refuge, who come here seeking asylum. That is not a crime. As Americans, what we need to do is have a sane system that keeps us safe at the border, but does not criminalize the-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
activity of a mother fleeing [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
-Thank you. Congressman Ryan, are Senator Sanders' proposals going to incentivize undocumented immigrants to come into this country illegally?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Yes. And right now, if you want to come into the country, you should at least ring the doorbell. We have asylum laws. I saw the kids up in Grand Rapids, not far from here. It is shameful what's happening, but Donald Trump is doing it. Even if you decriminalize, which we should not do, you still have statutory authority. The president could still use his authority to separate families. So, we've got to get rid of Donald Trump. But you don't decriminalize people just walking into the United States, if they're seeking asylum. Of course, we want to welcome them. We're a strong enough country to be able to welcome them. And as far as the healthcare goes, undocumented people can buy healthcare, too. I mean, everyone else in America is paying for their healthcare. I don't think it's a stretch for us to ask undocumented people in the country to also pay for healthcare.

Dana Bash:
Senator Sanders, your response?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Well, two things. A sane immigration policy moves to comprehensive immigration reform. It moves to a humane border policy in which, by the way, we have enough administrative judges, so that we don't have incredible backlogs that we have right now. But to answer your question, I happen to believe that when I talk about healthcare as a human right, that applies to all people in this country, and under Medicare for All single-payer system, we could afford to do that.

Dana Bash:
Senator Sanders, thank you, Ms. Williamson, your response?

Marianne Williamson:
Everything that we're talking about here tonight is what's wrong with American politics. And the Democratic Party needs to understand that we should be the party that talks not just about symptoms, but also about causes. When we're talking about healthcare, we need to talk about more than just the healthcare plan. We need to realize we have a sickness-care rather than a healthcare system. We need to be the party talking about why so many of our chemical policies, and our food policies, and our agricultural policies, and our environmental policies, and even our economic policies are leading to people getting sick to begin with-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you-

Marianne Williamson:
-that's what the Democratic … But I want to say more about immi-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Ms. Williamson.

Marianne Williamson:
Okay, I hope you'll come back to me this time.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Ms. Williamson. Go ahead.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Miss Williamson. Let's turn now to the issue of gun violence. There were three large-scale shootings this past weekend in America – at a park in Brooklyn, on the streets of Philadelphia, and one that left three dead and 12 injured at a food festival in Gilroy, California. Governor- excuse me, Mayor Buttigieg, other than offering words of comfort, what are you specifically going to do to stop this epidemic of gun violence?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Well, this epidemic of gun violence has hit my community, too, far too many times. It's the worst part of being mayor, getting the phone call, consoling grieving parents. And we have a mass shootings' worth of killings every day in this country. What we're doing hasn't worked, because we haven't had a system in Washington capable of delivering what the American people have told us they want. 80 to 90 percent of Republicans want universal background checks, not to mention the common-sense solutions, like red flag laws that disarm domestic abusers and flag mental-health risks, and an end to assault weapons, things like what I carried overseas in uniform that have no business in American neighborhoods, in peacetime, let alone anywhere near a school.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I was at an event a few days ago, and a 13-year-old asked me what we were gonna do about school safety, and then he began shaking, and then began crying. We could talk about these policies, but we already know the policies. The only thing I could think of, looking into the eyes of this child, is we're supposed to be dealing with this, so you don't have to. High school is hard enough without having to worry about whether you're going to get shot-

Don Lemon:
Thank you-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
-and when 90 percent of Americans want something to happen-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
-and Washington can't deliver, we can't expect the same [cross talk]

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I disagree-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I- I dis

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor. Governor Hickenlooper, your response, please?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I disagree. I disagree with his diagnosis-

Don Lemon:
Please stand by, Senator. Please stick to the rules.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Okay.

Don Lemon:
We'll get to you. We'll come to you in just a minute. Governor Hickenlooper, please respond.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Well, this is the fundamental nonsense of government. Another thing- another place where, despite our best efforts, we can't seem to make any progress. When I went to the movie theater in Aurora, in 2012, and saw that footage of what happened, that crime scene, I'll never forget it. And we decided that we were gonna go out and take on the NRA, and we passed- as a purple state, we passed universal background checks. We limited magazine capacity. We did the basic work that, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to be able to get done in Washington.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Klobuchar, please respond.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Yes. This isn't just about a system or it's not just about words. This is about the NRA. I sat across from the President of the United States after Parkland, because I've been a leader on these issues and have the will to close the boyfriend loophole. I watched and wrote down, when nine times, he said he wanted universal background checks. The next day he goes, and he meets with the NRA, and he folds. As your president, I will not fold. I will make sure that we get universal background checks passed, the assault weapon ban; that we do something about magazines, and that we understand when that sixth little- little six-year-old boy died, Stephen Romero, when his dad said, "He's only six years old," all I can say-

Don Lemon:
Thank- thank you, Senator. Mayor Buttigieg, please respond.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
is he's six years old. We have to remember that.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
This is the exact same conversation we've been having, since- since I was in high school. I was a junior, when the Columbine shooting happened. I was part of the first generation that saw routine school shootings. We have now produced the second school-shooting generation in this country. We dare not allow there to be a third. Something is broken, if it is even possible for the same debate around the same solutions that we all know are the right thing to do. They won't prevent every incident. They won't save every life. But we know what to do, and it has not happened.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor. Senator Klobuchar, please respond.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Yes. What is broken is a political system that allows the NRA and other large, big money to come in and make things not happen when the majority of people are for it. The people are with us now. After Parkland, those students just didn't march. They talk to their dads, and their grandpas, and the hunters in their family. And they said, "There must be a better way." Then we elected people in the House of Representatives, and guess what? It changed, and they passed universal background checks. Now that bill is sitting on Mitch McConnell's doorstep, because of the money and the power of the NRA. As president, I will take them on-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-this is not about systems and words.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Governor Bullock, how can Democrats trust you to be the leader on this fight for gun safety, when you only changed your position to call for an assault weapons ban last summer?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
You know, like 40 percent of American households, I'm a gun owner. I hunt. Like far too many people in America, I've been personally impacted by gun violence. Had an 11-year-old nephew, Jeremy, shot and killed on a playground. We need to start looking at this as a public health issue, not a political issue. I agree with Senator Klobuchar. It is the NRA, and it's not just gun violence. It's when we talk about climate, when we talk about prescription drug costs … Washington, D.C. is captured by dark money, the Koch brothers, and others.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
That's been the fight of my career. Kicking the Koch brothers out of Montana. Taking the first case after Citizens United up to the Supreme Court, making it so that elections are about people. That's the way we're actually going to make a change on this, Don, is by changing that system. Most the things that folks are talking about on this stage, we're not going to address until we kick dark money, and the post-Citizens United corporate spending out of these elections.

Don Lemon:
Congressman O'Rourke, your response?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
How else can we explain that we lose nearly 40,000 people in this country to gun violence? A number that no other country comes even close to; that we know what all the solutions are and yet, nothing has changed. It is because, in this country, money buys influence, access, and, increasingly, outcomes. The Centers for Disease Control prevented from actually studying the issue in the first place. As president, we will make sure that we ban political action committee contributions to any member of Congress or any candidate for federal office. We will listen to people, not PACs; people, not corporations; people, not special interests [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Congressman, thank you very much. Senator Sanders, you said this in 2013, just months after the Sandy Hook massacre, and I quote here, "If you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I don't think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen." Do you still agree with that statement today?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
I think we have got to do … I think what I meant is what President Obama said, and that nobody up here is gonna tell you that we have a magical solution to the crisis. Now, I come from one of the most rural states in America. I have a D- voting record from the NRA; and as president, I suspect it will be an F record. What I believe we have got to do is have the guts to finally take on the NRA.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
You asked me about my record. Back in 1988, coming from a state that had no gun control, I called for the ban of the sale and distribution of assault weapons. I lost that election. I will do everything I can not only to take on the NRA, but to expand the great universal background checks, do away with the straw man provision, do away with the gun show loophole, and do away with the loopholes that now exist for gun manufacturers, who are selling large amounts of weapons into communities that are going to gangs.

Don Lemon:
Yeah. Mayor Buttigieg, your response?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Still, the conversation that we've been having for the last 20 years. Of course, we need to get money out of politics. But when I propose the actual structural democratic reforms that might make a difference in the Electoral College, amend the Constitution, if necessary, to clear up Citizens United, have D.C. actually be a state, and depoliticize the Supreme Court with structural reform, people look at me funny; as if this country were incapable of structural reform. Does anybody really think we're gonna overtake Citizens United without constitutional action? This is a country that once changed its constitution so you couldn't drink, and then changed it back, because we changed our minds about that-

Don Lemon:
Thank you. Thank you, Mayor-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
-and you're telling me we can't reform our democracy in our time?

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
We have to, or we'll be having the same argument 20 years from now [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Please respond, Governor Bullock.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
You can make changes. Even in Montana with a two-thirds Republican legislature, we passed a law that said if you're gonna spend money in our elections, I don't care if you call yourself Americans for America for America, you're gonna have to disclose every one of those dollars in the last 90 days. I'll never forget running for re-election in 2016. Even we stopped the Koch brothers from spending at that time. If we can kick the Koch brothers out of Montana, we can do it in D.C., and we can do it everywhere-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, I'd like to be heard on this-

Gov. Steve Bullock:
-and we are also taking steps, additional steps that we've taken … I've passed an executive order, if you're even in a contract with the state, you have to disclose-

Don Lemon:
Thank you- Governor Bullock, thank you very much. Ms. Williamson, how [cross talk]

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, I'd like to have a chance on this.

Don Lemon:
-do you respond to this issue of gun safety?

Marianne Williamson:
The issue of gun safety, of course, is that the NRA has us in a chokehold, but so do the pharmaceutical companies, so do the health insurance companies, so do the fossil fuel companies, and so do the defense contractors. And none of this will change until we either pass a constitutional amendment or pass legislation that establishes public funding for federal campaigns. But for politicians, including my fellow candidates, who, themselves, have taken tens of thousands, and in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars from these same corporate donors to think that they now have the moral authority to say we're gonna take them on …

Marianne Williamson:
I don't think the Democratic Party should be surprised that so many Americans believe yada, yada, yada. It is time for us to start over with people who have not taken donations from any of these corporations and can say with real moral authority, that is over. We are going to establish public funding for federal campaigns. That's what we need to stand up to. We need to have a constitutional amendment. We need to have legislation to do it, and until we do it, it's just the same old, same old-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Miss Williamson.

Jake Tapper:
In poll after poll, Democratic voters say that they want a candidate who can beat President Trump more than they want a candidate who agrees with them on major issues. Governor Hickenlooper, you ran a Facebook ad that warned, quote, "Socialism is not the answer." The ad also said, "Don't let extremes give Trump four more years." Are you saying that Senator Sanders is too extreme to beat President Trump?

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
I'm saying the policies of this notion that you're gonna take private insurance away from 180 million Americans, who, many of them don't want to give it; many of them do wanna get rid of it, but some don't. Many don't. Or you're gonna … The Green New Deal – make sure that every American's guaranteed a government job, if they want. That is a disaster at the ballot box. You might as well FedEx the election to Donald Trump.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
I think we've gotta focus on where Donald Trump is failing. You know, the word malpractice- and this is interesting, I always thought it was doctors or lawyers. It's negligent, improper, illegal professional activity for doctors, lawyers, or public officials. Google it. Check it out. Donald Trump is malpractice personified. We've gotta point that out. Why is it soybean farmers in Iowa need 10 good years to get back to where they were two years ago, or it's the small manufacturing jobs that are supposed to come back? Why are we lurching from one international crisis to another? All things that he promised American voters. We've gotta focus on that, and the economy, and jobs, and training, so that we can promise a future for America that everybody wants to invest in.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Sanders, you are a proud democratic socialist. How do you respond to Governor Hickenlooper?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Well, the truth is that every credible poll that I have seen has me beating Donald Trump, including- including the battleground states of Michigan, where I won the Democratic primary, Wisconsin, where I won the Democratic primary, and Pennsylvania. And the reason we are gonna defeat Trump, and beat him badly, is that he took a fraud and a phony, and we're gonna expose him for what he is.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
The American people want to have a minimum wage, which is a living wage, 15 bucks an hour. I've helped lead that effort. The American people want to pay reasonable prices for prescription drugs, not the highest prices in the world-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
I've helped lead the effort to that, as well.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Governor Hickenlooper. I want to bring you back to respond.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
So, again, I think if we're gonna force Americans to make these radical changes, they're not gonna go along … Throw your hands up.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
I will!

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
But you haven't. Whoa-ho, I can do it! But you haven't implemented the plans. Us governors and mayors are the ones that we have to pick up all the pieces, when suddenly the government's supposed to take over all these responsibilities. There's no preparation, the details on what … You can't just spring a plan on the world and expect it to succeed.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
John-

Jake Tapper:
Senator Sanders.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
John, I was a mayor, and I helped transform my city [cross talk] I have some practical experience. Second of all, interestingly enough, today is the anniversary of Medicare. Fifty-four years ago, under Lyndon Johnson, and the Democratic Congress, they started a new program. After one year, 19 million elderly people in it. Please don't tell me that, in a four-year period, we cannot go from 65 down to 55, to 45, to 35. This is not radical. This is what virtually every other country on earth does-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-we are the odd guy out.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. I wanna bring- I wanna bring in Congressman Ryan. You're from the state of Ohio. It's a state that voted twice for Obama, and then went to President Trump in 2016. Please respond to Senator Sanders.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
I would just say Hillary Clinton was winning in the polls, too. To take a snapshot in the polls today, and apply it 16 months from now, or whenever it is, I don't think is accurate. Now, in this discussion already tonight, we've talked about taking private health insurance away from union members in the industrial Midwest. We've talked about decriminalizing the border, and we've talked about giving free healthcare to undocumented workers, when so many Americans are struggling to pay for their healthcare. I, quite frankly, don't think that that is an agenda that we can move forward on and win. We've got to talk about the working-class issues, the people that take a shower after work, who haven't had a raise in 30 years.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you [cross talk]

Congressman Tim Ryan:
-if we focus on that, we'll win the election.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. I wanna bring in Congressman O'Rourke. Your response, sir?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
Bernie was talking about some of the battleground states in which we compete. There's a new battleground state, Texas, and it has 38 Electoral College votes. And the way that we put it in play was by going to each one of those 254 counties. No matter how red or rural, we did not write you off; no matter how blue or urban, we did not take you for granted. And we didn't trim our sails either. We had the courage of our convictions, talking about universal healthcare, comprehensive immigration reform, and confronting the challenge of climate before it is too late. We brought everyone in, and now we have a chance to beat Donald Trump within Texas.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman, I'm wondering, Governor Bullock, we're talking about whether Democrats are moving too far to the left to win the White House. President Trump won your home state of Montana by 20 points. How do you respond, sir?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Yeah, as the only one of the field of 37 that actually won a Trump state, 25 to 30 percent of my voters voted for Donald Trump. I know that we do have to win back some of those places we lost and get those Trump voters back, if we're ever going to win. But this isn't just a choice between the left and the center. It's not a choice just between these wishlist economics or thinking that we have to sacrifice our values to actually win. What folks want is a fair shot. The way I won, the way we can win is to actually focus on the economy and democracy aren't working for most people-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
-that's how I win. That's how we can take back the office.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Warren, you make it a point to say that you're a capitalist. Is that your way of convincing voters that you might be a safer choice than Senator Sanders?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
No, it is my way of talking about I know how to fight, and I know how to win. I took on giant banks, and I beat them. I took on Wall Street, and CEOs, and their lobbyists, and their lawyers, and I beat them. I took on a popular Republican incumbent senator, and I beat him. I remember when people said Barack Obama couldn't get elected. Shoot, I remember when people said Donald Trump couldn't get elected. But here is where we are. I get it. There is a lot at stake, and people are scared, but we can't choose a candidate we don't believe in, just because we're too scared to do anything else. We can't ask other people to vote for a candidate we don't believe in. Democrats win when we figure out what is right, and we get out there and fight for it. I am not afraid. And for Democrats to win, you can't be afraid either.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman Delaney, your response?

Congressman John Delaney:
So, I think Democrats win when we run on real solutions, not impossible promises; when we run on things that are workable, not fairy tale economics. Look at this story of Detroit – this amazing city that we're in. This city is turning around because the government and the private sector are working well together. That has to be our model going forward. We need to encourage collaboration between the government, the private sector, and the non-profit sector and focus on those kitchen table pocketbook issues that matter to hardworking Americans – building infrastructure, creating jobs, improving their pay-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman John Delaney:
-creating universal healthcare and lowering drug prices. We can do it.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. Senator Warren?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
You know, I don't understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the United States just to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. I don't get it. Our biggest problem in Washington is corruption. It is giant corporations that have taken our government and that are holding it by the throat. And we need to have the courage to fight back against that. Until we're ready to do that, it's just more of the same. Well, I'm ready to get in this fight. I'm ready to win this fight.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Congressman Delaney?

Congressman John Delaney:
When we created Social Security, we didn't say pensions were illegal. We can have big ideas to transform the lives … I mean, I started two companies and took them public before I was 40. I'm as big of a dreamer and an entrepreneur as anyone, but I also believe we need to have solutions that are workable. Can you imagine if we tried to start Social Security now, but said private pensions are illegal? That's the equivalent of what Senator Sanders and Senator Warren are proposing with healthcare. That's not a big idea. That's an idea that's dead on arrival. That will never happen. So why don't we actually talk about things, big ideas that we can get done? The stakes are too high-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. Senator Warren? [cross talk] We'll come to you right after that. Senator Warren?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
He talks about solutions that are workable. We have tried the solution of Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance. What have the private insurance companies done? They've sucked billions of dollars out of our healthcare system. They've made everybody fill out dozens, and dozens of forms. Why? Not because they're trying to track your healthcare. They just want one more excuse to say no. Insurance companies do not have a God-given right to suck money out of our healthcare system-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-and 2020 is our chance to stop that.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Senator Sanders?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Detroit was mentioned, and I'm delighted that Detroit is rebounding, but let us understand, Detroit was nearly destroyed because of awful trade policy, which allowed corporations to throw workers in this community out on the street as they moved to low-wage countries. To win this election, and to defeat Donald Trump, which, by the way, in my view, is not gonna be easy, we need to have a campaign of energy, and excitement, and a vision. We need to bring millions of young people into the political process in a way that we have never seen, by, among other things, making public colleges and universities tuition free and canceling student debt-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Senator. I wanna bring in … I wanna bring in Senator Klobuchar. At the beginning of the night, you said, "You're gonna hear a lot of promises on the stage," and previously you have said, when asked about your primary opponents, "A lot of people are making promises, and I'm not gonna make promises just to get elected." Who on this stage is making promises just to get elected?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Everyone wants to get elected, but my point is this – I think when we have a guy in the White House that has now told over 10,000 lies that we better be very straightforward with the American people. And, no, do I think that we are gonna end up voting for a plan that kicks half of America off of their current insurance in four years? No, I don't think we're gonna do that. I think there is a better way to get what we all want to see, which is lower costs for healthcare.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Do I think that we're gonna vote to give free college to the wealthiest kids? No, I don't think we're gonna do that. That's what I'm talking about. But what I don't like about this argument right now, what I don't like about it at all, is that we are more worried about winning an argument than winning an election. I think how we win an election is to bring everyone with us. Yes, I have won, in a state, every single time statewide … I have won those congressional districts that Donald Trump won by over 20 points. He just targeted Minnesota last week. I've done it by getting out there and talking to people, by knowing rural issues, and farm issues-.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Klobuchar-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-and bringing metro people with me in this state that had the highest voter turnout in this country. That's what we want.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator [cross talk] I wanna bring Congressman O'Rourke … Congressman O'Rourke, please respond.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I think a big part of leadership and showing our commitment to the American people is delivering on our commitments. As a member of Congress, when I learned that the El Paso V.A. had the worst wait times for mental healthcare in the country, meaning that care delayed functionally became care denied and was related to the suicide epidemic, we made it our priority, and we turned around the V.A. in El Paso. We took that lesson nationally, and I worked with Republican and Democratic colleagues to expand mental healthcare to veterans, and we got it signed into law by the one person with whom I agree on almost nothing – Donald Trump – to show that, at the end of the day, we will put the American people first before party, before any other concern.

Dana Bash:
Thank you- Thank you, Congressman O'Rourke. We've been asking voters to weigh in on what they'd most like to hear Democrats debate. Among the topics they told us they're most interested in – the climate crisis. Congressman Delaney, I'll start with you. You say the Green New Deal is about as realistic as Trump saying Mexico is going to pay for the wall, but scientists say we need essentially to eliminate fossil fuel pollution by 2050 to avoid the most catastrophic consequences. Why isn't this sweeping plan to fight the climate crisis realistic?

Congressman John Delaney:
Well, first of all, because it ties its progress to other things that are completely unrelated to climate, like universal healthcare, guaranteed government jobs, and universal basic income. So that only makes it harder to do. My plan, which gets us to Net Zero by 2050, which we absolutely have to do for our kids and our grandkids, will get us there. I put a price on carbon. Take all the money, give it back to the American people in a dividend. That was introduced by me on a bipartisan basis. It's the only significant bipartisan climate bill in the Congress.

Congressman John Delaney:
I'm gonna increase the Department of Energy research budget by fivefold, because we fundamentally have to innovate our way out of this problem. I'm gonna create a market for something called direct air capture, which are machines that actually take carbon out of the atmosphere, because I don't think we'll get to Net Zero by 2050 unless we have those things. I'm gonna increase investment in renewables, and I'm gonna create something called the Climate Corps. That is a plan that's realistic. It's a bet on the U.S. private innovation economy and creates the incentives to get us to Net Zero by 2050 for our kids-

Dana Bash:
Thank you- thank you, Congressman. Senator Warren, you're a co-sponsor of the Green New Deal. Your response to Congressman Delaney.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, climate crisis is the existential crisis for our world. It puts every living thing on this planet at risk. I have a plan for a green industrial policy that takes advantage of the fact that we do what we do best and that is innovate and create. So I proposed putting $2 trillion in, so we do the research. We then say anyone in the world can use it, so long as you build it right here in America. That will produce about 1.2 million manufacturing jobs right here in Michigan, right here in Ohio, right here in the industrial Midwest. The second thing we will do is we will then sell those products all around the world. Right now, for every one dollar the United States-

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-spends trying to market around the world-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-China's spending $100-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren. Governor Hickenlooper, you take issue with the Green New Deal. Please respond.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Well, I think the guarantee for a public job for everyone who wants one is a classic part of the problem. It's a distraction. I share the urgency of everyone up here. We have to recognize … I mean, everyone's got good ideas. What we do in this country is no better than just a best practice. What we do here is a best practice and a template, but it's gotta be done all over the world. So, we've gotta be building bridges right now with people, like China, who are cheating on international agreements and stealing intellectual property. We need to work on that, but not with a tariff system. We need every country working together, if we're gonna really deal with climate change in a realistic way.

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Senator Warren, your response?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Look, I put a real policy on the table to create 1.2 million new jobs in green manufacturing. It's gonna be a $23 trillion worldwide market for this. This could revitalize huge cities across this country, and no one wants to talk about it. What you wanna do instead is find the Republican talking point of a made-up piece of some other part and say, "Oh, we don't really have to do anything." That's the problem we've got in Washington right now.

Dana Bash:
Thank you-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
It continues to be a Washington that works great for oil companies, just not for people worried about climate change.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Warren. Congressman Ryan, we are here in Michigan, where there are about 180,000 workers in auto manufacturing. Your state of Ohio has around 96,000 workers in that industry. Senator Sanders is cosponsoring a bill that would eliminate new gas-powered car sales by 2040. Given the number of auto manufacturing workers in your state, how concerned are you about Senator Sanders' plan?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Well, if we get our act together, we won't have to worry about it. My plan is to create a chief manufacturing officer, so we could actually start making things in the United States again that would pool the government, the Department of Energy, Department of Transportation; work with the private sector, work with investors, emerging tech companies to dominate the electric vehicle market. China dominates it now, 50 to 60 percent. I want us to dominate the battery market, make those here in the United States, and cut the workers in on the deal. The charging stations, solar panels, same thing. China dominates 60 percent of the solar panel market. This person will work in the White House, report directly to me, and we're gonna start making things again.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
But you cannot get there on climate, unless we talk about agriculture. We need to convert our industrial agriculture system over to a sustainable and regenerative agriculture system that actually sequesters carbon into the soil – you can go ask Gabe Brown and Alan Williams, who actually make money off of regenerative agriculture – so we can move away from all the subsidies that we're giving the farmers. They haven't made a profit in five years, and we could start getting good food into our schools and into our communities. That's gonna drive healthcare down. That's another part of the healthcare conversation that we didn't even have. How do we start talking about health, instead of just disease care?

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Ryan. Senator Sanders, your response?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
I get a little bit tired of Democrats afraid of big ideas. Republicans are not afraid of big ideas. They could give a trillion dollars in tax breaks to billionaires and profitable corporations. They could bail out the crooks on Wall Street. So, please don't tell me that we cannot take on the fossil fuel industry, and nothing happens unless we do that. Here is the bottom line. We've gotta ask ourselves a simple question – what do you do with an industry that knowingly, for billions of dollars in short-term profits, is destroying this planet? I say that it's criminal activity that cannot be allowed to continue-

Dana Bash:
Thank you- Thank you, Senator Sanders. Congressman, your response?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Well, yeah, I would just say … I didn't say we couldn't get there til 2040, Bernie. You don't have to yell. I mean, all I'm saying is- all I'm saying is we have to invent our way out of this thing. If we're waiting for 2040 for a ban to come in on gasoline vehicles, we're screwed. So, we'd better get busy now. That's why I'm saying get a chief manufacturing officer; align the environmental incentives with the financial incentives and make sure that people can actually make money off of the new technologies that are moving forward. Then, here's what I'll do as president-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
-cut the worker in on the deal, make sure these are union jobs, and I will double union membership to make sure that these new jobs pay what the old fossil fuel jobs paid.

Dana Bash:
Senator Sanders, your response.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Look, on this issue, my friends, there is no choice. We have got to be super-aggressive, if we love our children and if we want to leave them a planet that is healthy and is habitable. So, I don't disagree with Tim. What that means is we gotta, A) take on the fossil fuel industry; B) it means we have to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy, and a hell of a lot of good union jobs as we do that. We've gotta transform our transportation system-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
-and we have to lead the world, because this is not just an American issue.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Sanders. Governor Bullock, your response?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
You know, all of us agree that we have to address climate change. No one on this stage is talking about, though, the Republicans won't even acknowledge that climate change is real, Dana, and that's because of the corrupting influence of money. That has been the fight of my career. And second of which, as we transition to this clean energy economy, you gotta recognize there are folks that have spent their whole life powering our country. Far too often, Democrats sound like they're part of the problem. We gotta make sure to aid in those transitions as we get to a carbon neutral world, which I think we can do by 2040-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Governor. Just to clarify, who is part of the problem?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Who? Oh, no. I think Democrats often, when they're saying, "Oh, these fossil fuel industries, these workers, those coal mining workers …" Look, the world is changing. We gotta make it change, but I think Democrats often sound like the people that, as Congressman Ryan would say, shower at the end of the day; that they're part of the problem. Far too many communities are being left behind as we make this transition.

Dana Bash:
Thank you.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Look, we're having this discussion, and we can talk about competing plans-.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Governor. I want to give Senator Sanders a chance to respond.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Look, Steve, ain't nobody in the Congress who's more strongly for workers than I am. So, when I talk about picking on the fossil fuel industry, what I am also talking about is a just transition. We can create, and what the Green New Deal is about- it's a bold idea. We can create millions of good paying jobs. We can rebuild communities in rural America that have been devastated. We are not anti-worker. We are gonna provide, and make sure that those workers have a transition – new jobs, healthcare, and education [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator.

Unidentified:
Dana-

Dana Bash:
-Governor Bullock, your response?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
And look, Bernie, I was a union side labor lawyer. I fought day after day, and I know- But we set this up as a false choice far too often. Are we gonna actually address climate change? Fire seasons are 80 days longer in the West now … Or are we going to give people a better shot at a better life? You can do both. Let's actually have the scientists drive this. Let's not just talk about plans that are written for press releases that will go nowhere else, if we can't even get a Republican to acknowledge that the climate's changing-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Governor. Congressman O'Rourke, your response.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I've listened to scientists on this, and they're very clear. We don't have more than 10 years to get this right. We won't meet that challenge with half steps, or half measures, or only half the country. We've gotta bring everyone in. The people of Detroit and those that I listened to in Flint last week, they want the challenge. They want those jobs. They wanna create the future for this country and the world. Those community college students that I met in Tucumcari, New Mexico understand that wind and solar jobs are the fastest growing jobs in the country. Those farmers in Iowa say, "Pay me for the environmental services of planting cover crops and keeping more land in conservation easements." That's how we meet the challenge. We do it with everyone in this country. We bring everyone into the solution.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman. Mayor Buttigieg, your response.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
We have all put out highly similar visions on climate. It is all theoretical. We will deal with climate, if and only if we win the presidency, if and only if we beat Donald Trump. Nominate me, and you get to see the President of the United States stand next to an American war veteran and explain why he chose to pretend to be disabled when it was his chance to serve. Nominate me, and we will have a different conversation with American voters about why the President of the United States thinks you're a sucker when the problem in your life is your paycheck is not going up nearly as fast as the cost of housing, or the cost of education, or the cost of prescription drugs.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mayor Buttigieg-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
-and he has done nothing about it except make tax cuts for the corporations [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
Senator Klobuchar, I wanna ask you about something that CNN heard from a Michigan Democratic primary voter. We've been reaching out and getting their questions. Kimber from Birmingham, Michigan, has this question – what is your plan to address infrastructure, including the water issues, so another Flint, Michigan, does not happen again?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Thank you, Dana. I was just in Flint, and they are still drinking bottled water in that town, and that is outrageous. My plan, and I am the first one that came out with an infrastructure plan – and I did that because this is a bread-and-butter issue … It's a bread-and-butter issue for people that are caught in traffic jams. I think the governor here in Michigan smartly ran on the slogan, "Fix the damned roads." It is an issue for union jobs. I think what we need to do is not have a president that's promised he was gonna do that, on election night, if anyone remembers, and then he hasn't followed through. He has done nothing. He blew up a meeting at the White House.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I would put a trillion dollars into this, and I would pay for it by, first of all, changing the capital gains rate; by doing something when it comes to that regressive tax bill that left everyone behind, but really made his Mar-a-lago friends richer, as he promised, and I would take that money and put it into rural broadband and green infrastructure, so you won't have what you just saw in Detroit with the Jefferson Chalmers neighborhood, the African neighborhood that was- African-American neighborhood that was most hit, when you had those recent rainstorms. I truly believe that if we're gonna move on infrastructure-

Dana Bash:
Thank you-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-on climate change, you need a voice from the heartland [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Ms. Williamson, what's your response on the Flint water crisis?

Marianne Williamson:
My response on the Flint water crisis is that Flint is just the tip of the iceberg. I was recently in Denmark, South Carolina, where it is … There is a lot of talk about it being the next Flint. We have an administration that has gutted the Clean Water Act. We have communities, particularly communities of color, and disadvantaged communities all over this country who are suffering from environmental injustice. I assure you – I lived in Grosse Pointe – what happened in Flint would not have happened in Grosse Pointe.

Marianne Williamson:
This is part of the dark underbelly of American society – the racism, the bigotry … And the entire conversation that we're having here tonight, if you think any of this wonkiness is going to deal with this dark psychic force of the collectivized hatred that this president is bringing up in this country, then I'm afraid that the Democrats are going to see some very dark days. We need to say it like it is. It's bigger than Flint. It's all over this country. It's particularly people of color; it's particularly people who do not have the money to fight back. And if the Democrats don't start saying it, then why would those people feel that they're there for us? And if those people don't feel it, they won't vote for us, and Donald Trump will win.

Don Lemon:
Thank you very much, Ms. Williamson.

Marianne Williamson:
Thank you.

Don Lemon:
We wanna turn now to the issue of race in America. Congressman O'Rourke, President Trump is pursuing a re-election strategy based in part on racial division. How do you convince primary voters that you'd be the best nominee to take on President Trump and heal the racial divide in America?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
We'll call his racism out for what it is and also talk about its consequences. It doesn't just offend our sensibilities to hear him say, "Send her back," about a member of Congress, because she's a woman of color, because she's a Muslim-American. Doesn't just offend our sensibilities when he calls Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals or seeks to ban all Muslims from the shores of a country that's comprised of people from the world over from every tradition of faith.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
It is also changing this country. Hate crimes are on the rise, every single one of the last three years. On the day that he signed his executive order attempting to ban Muslim travel, the mosque in Victoria, Texas, was burned to the ground. So we must not only stand up against Donald Trump and defeat him in this next election, but we must also ensure that we don't just tolerate or respect our differences, but we embrace them. That's what we've learned in El Paso, Texas, my hometown – one of the safest cities in the United States of America, not despite, but because it's a city of immigrants, and asylum seekers, and refugees. We will show that diversity is our strength in my administration.

Don Lemon:
Thank you- Congressman O'Rourke, thank you very much. Governor Hickenlooper, why are you the best nominee to heal the racial divide in America? Please respond.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Well, the core value behind this entire country's history is working towards a more perfect union – that all people are created equal. And we've fallen far away from that. I think the job is incumbent on any one of us to make the convincing case that we can deliver an urban agenda that represents progress in schools.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
In Colorado, when I was mayor, we got to universal pre-K for every kid in the urban city. We did major police reform 10 years before Ferguson. Why is it now that five years after Ferguson, we still don't have anything? How did we get affordable housing? We create a scholarship fund for every kid. You've gotta deliver a vision like that for the whole country.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Warren, I'm coming to you now.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Yes.

Don Lemon:
Last week, the FBI director, Christopher Wray, said that the majority of domestic terrorism cases this year had been motivated by white supremacy. In fact, the alleged shooter in this weekend's attack in Gilroy, California referenced a well-known white supremacist book on social media. How are you going to combat the rise of white supremacy?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
We need to call out white supremacy for what it is – domestic terrorism. It poses a threat to the United States of America. We live in a country now where the president is advancing environmental racism, economic racism, criminal justice racism, healthcare racism. The way we do better is to fight back and show something better.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, I have a plan, for example, on education that says we have to build a better education system for all our kids, but we've got to acknowledge what's happened on race. My plan has universal tuition-free college for all of our kids, but also increases the Pell Grants and levels the playing field by putting $50 billion into historically black colleges and universities. It cancels student loan debt for 95 percent of the kids with student loan debt and helps close the black-white wealth gap in America.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator, very much. Mayor Buttigieg, you've been criticized for your handling of racial issues in your home city of South Bend – from diversity in the police force to housing policy. Given your record, how can you convince African-Americans that you should be the Democratic nominee?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
As an urban mayor serving a diverse community, the racial divide lives within me. I'm not saying that I became mayor, and racism, or crime, or poverty ended on my watch, but in our city, we have come together repeatedly to tackle challenges like the fact that far too many people were not getting the help they needed in their housing. We directed it to a historically underinvested African-American neighborhood. Right now, in the wake of a police-involved shooting, our community is moving from hurting to healing by making sure that the community can participate in things like revising the use of force policy and making sure there are community voices on the board of safety that handles police matters.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I've proposed a Douglas plan to tackle this issue nationally, because mayors have hit the limits of what you can do unless there is national action. Systemic racism has touched every part of American life, from housing, to health, to homeownership. If you walk into an emergency room, and you are Black, your reports of pain will be taken less seriously. If you apply for a job, if you are Black, you are less likely to be called, just because of the name on the resume. It's why I've proposed that we do everything from investing in historically red-lined neighborhoods to build Black wealth in homeownership-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor-

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
-to supporting entrepreneurship for Black Americans.

Thank you very much. Senator Klobuchar, what do you say to those Trump voters who prioritize the economy over the president's bigotry?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Well, first of all, there are people that voted for Donald Trump before that aren't racist. They just wanted a better shake in the economy, so I would appeal to them. But I don't think anyone can justify what this president is doing. Little kids literally woke up this weekend, turned on the TV, and saw their president calling their city – the town of Baltimore – nothing more than a home for rats. I can tell you, as your president, that will stop.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
The second thing I would say is that economic opportunity means economic opportunity for everyone in this country. I know that, because I have lived it. And that means when we put out there better childcare, and a better education, and we pay teachers more, and we make sure there's a decent retirement system in place, yes, we help the African-American community. We must, because they have been the ones that have been most hurt by what we've seen in the last decade, but we help everyone. What I say to the people in my rural parts of my state, just like I say to them in the city and bring them together, is that economic opportunity must be there for everyone.

Don Lemon:
Senator Klobuchar, thank you very much. Congressman O'Rourke, please respond.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I want to acknowledge something that we're all touching on, which is the very foundation of this country. The wealth that we have built, the way we became the greatest country on the face of the planet was literally on the backs of those who were kidnapped and brought here by force. The legacy of slavery, and segregation, and Jim Crow, and suppression is alive and well in every aspect of the economy, and in the country today. As president, I will sign into law a new voting rights act. I will focus on education, address healthcare disparities, but I will also sign into law Sheila Jackson Lee's reparations bill, so that we can have the national conversation we have waited too long in this country to have.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Congressman O'Rourke. Speaking of reparations, Ms. Williamson, many of your opponents support a commission to study the issue of reparations for slavery, but you are calling for up to $500 billion in financial assistance. What makes you qualified to determine how much is owed in reparations?

Marianne Williamson:
Well, first of all, it's not $500 billion in financial assistance. It's $500 billion- $200 to $500 billion payment of a debt that is owed. That is what reparations is. We need some deep truth telling, when it comes … We don't need another commission to look at evidence. I appreciate what Congressman O'Rourke has said. It is time for us to simply realize that this country will not heal … All that a country is, is a collection of people. People heal when there's some deep truth telling. We need to recognize that when it comes to the economic gap between blacks and whites in America, it does come from a great injustice that has never been dealt with. That great injustice has had to do with the fact that there was 250 years of slavery, followed by another 100 years of domestic terrorism.

Marianne Williamson:
What makes me qualified to say $200 to $500 billion? I'll tell you what makes me qualified. If you did the math of the 40 acres and a mule, given that there was 4 to 5 million slaves at the end of the Civil War … They were all promised 40 acres and a mule for every family of four. If you did the math today, it would be trillions of dollars. I believe in anything less than $100 billion is an insult, and I believe that $200 to $500 billion is politically feasible today, because so many Americans realize there is an injustice that continues to form a toxicity underneath the surface, and emotional turbulence that only reparations [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Ms. Williamson, thank you very much. Senator Sanders … Senator Sanders, you don't think cash payments are the best way to address this issue, but according to a new Gallup poll, 73 percent of African-Americans are in favor of cash payments to Black Americans who are descendants of slaves. How do you respond to them?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Well, I respond to that by saying that I am supportive of Jim Clyburn's legislation, which is called 10-20-30. What that understands is that, as a result of slavery, and segregation, and the institutional racism we see now in healthcare, in education, in financial services, we are going to have to focus big time on rebuilding distressed communities in America, including African-American communities.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
In terms of education, I also have a plan. It's called the Thurgood Marshall Plan, and it would focus on ending the growth of segregated schools in America. It would triple funding for Title I schools. It would make sure that teachers in this country earned at least $60,000 a year.

Don Lemon:
Senator Sanders, thank you very much. Congressman Ryan, President Trump's tariffs have boosted the U.S. steel industry, but hurt auto manufacturers, like those here in Michigan, which could drive up the cost of cars. As president, would you continue President Trump's steel tariffs?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Look, I think President Trump was onto something when he talked about China. China has been abusing the economic system for a long time. They steal intellectual property. They subsidize goods coming into this country. They've displaced steelworkers, autoworkers, across the board, eroded our manufacturing, and we basically transferred our wealth of our middle class either up to the top one percent or to China for them to build their military.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
I think we need some targeted response against China. But you know how you beat China? You outcompete them. That's why I'd put a chief manufacturing officer in place to make sure that we rebuild the manufacturing base. We've gotta fill these factories in Detroit, and Youngstown that used to make cars and steel … We've gotta fill them with workers who are making electric vehicles, batteries, charging stations; make sure they're making solar panels.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
As I said earlier, China dominated 60 percent of the solar panel market. They dominate 50 to 60 percent of the electric vehicle market. We're gonna make 10 million electric vehicles somewhere in the world in the next 10 years. I wanna make it the United States. That's why I have a chief manufacturing officer that will sit in the White House and help drive this agenda-

Don Lemon:
Congressman, thank you. Just as a point of clarification, as president, would you continue President Trump's steel tariffs? Yes or no?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Well, I would have to re-evaluate. I think some of them are effective, but he's bungled the whole thing, obviously. He has … See, here's the problem with President Trump. He has a tactical move, one of many. He has a tactical move. What's the grand strategy for the United States? China has a 100-year plan, a 50-year plan, a 30-year plan, a 20-year plan. We live in a 24-hour news cycle. That spells disaster for our economy and disaster for our global policies.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Congressman. Congressman Delaney, your response?

Congressman John Delaney:
So, listen, this is what I don't understand. President Trump wants to build physical walls and beats up on immigrants. Most of the folks running for president want to build economic walls to free trade and beat up on President Obama. I'm the only one running for president who actually supports the Trans-Pacific Partnership. President Obama was right about that. We should be getting back in that. Senator Warren just issued a trade plan that would prevent the United States from trading with its allies. We can't go and- we can't isolate ourselves from the world. We have to engage with fair rules-based trade-

Don Lemon:
Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Delaney, Senator Warren, please respond.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
For decades, we have had a trade policy that has been written by giant multinational corporations to help giant multinational corporations. They have no loyalty to America. They have no patriotism. If they can save a nickel by moving a job to Mexico, they'll do it in a heartbeat. If they can continue a polluting plant by moving it to Vietnam, they'll do it in a heartbeat. I have put out a new comprehensive plan that says we're not gonna do it that way. We're gonna negotiate our deals with unions at the table, with small businesses at the table, with small farmers at the table with environmentalists at the table with, human rights activists at the table. Then, we're gonna use the fact that everybody in the world wants to get to America's markets. They wanna sell to you [cross talk] I'll finish-

Don Lemon:
Congressman Delaney-

Congressman John Delaney:
Sorry.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-is everyone wants to get to America's markets.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
No … The question is how we need to raise our standards-

Don Lemon:
Senator, thank you, please abide by the rules. Congressman Delaney, it's your turn. Thank you, Senator. Congressman Delaney?

Congressman John Delaney:
So, that was the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I think President Obama was right. He did include environmental standards. He did include labor standards. We would be in an entirely different position with China, if we had entered the Trans-Pacific Partnership. We can't isolate ourselves from the world. We can't isolate ourselves from Asia. Senator Warren's plan, basically, that she put out, we would not be able to trade with the United Kingdom. We would not be able to trade with the EU.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
No, what this is about-

Congressman John Delaney:
It is so extreme that it'll isolate the American economy against the world-

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Congressman Delaney. Thank you, Congressman. Senator [cross talk] Senator Warren? [cross talk] Senator Sanders, please let Senator Warren respond.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Oh, I'm sorry.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
What the Congressman is describing as extreme is having deals that are negotiated by American workers for American workers. American workers want those jobs, and we can build the trade deals that do it. People want access to our markets all around the world? Then the answer is let's make them raise their standards. Make them pay their workers more. Let their workers unionize; raise their environmental standards before they come to us and say they wanna be able to sell their products. Right now, the whole game is working for the big multinationals. It's just not working for the people here in the United States, and we can change that-

Don Lemon:
Senator, thank you very much. Congressman O'Rourke, your response.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
The question was about tariffs, and they're a huge mistake. They constitute the largest tax increase on the American consumer, hitting the middle class, and the working poor especially hard. Farmers in Iowa and across the country are bearing the brunt of the consequences. When have we ever gone to war, including a trade war, without allies, and friends, and partners?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
As president, we will hold China accountable, but we will bring our allies and friends, like the European Union, to bear. We'll also negotiate trade deals that favor farmers, and American workers, and protect human rights, and the environment, and labor, not just here in the United States, but in [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Congressman O'Rourke, thank you very much. Senator Sanders, please respond to Congressman O'Rourke.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
I'd like to respond to this.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Yeah, okay. You're looking, I believe, at the only member of Congress who not only voted against these disastrous trade agreements, after PNTR with China, which cost us over 4 million jobs, but also helped lead the effort against these agreements. Elizabeth is absolutely right. If anybody here thinks that corporate America gives one damn about the average American worker, you're mistaken. If they can save five cents by going to China, Mexico, or Vietnam or anyplace else, that's exactly what they would do. As president, let me tell you what I will do. These guys line up at the federal troughs. They want military contracts. They want all kinds of contracts. Well, under my administration, you ain't gonna get those contracts, if you throw American workers out on the street-

Don Lemon:
Senator Sanders, thank you very much [cross talk] Governor Hickenlooper, your response?

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Again, I think Congressman Delaney has got a point here, and there is a way of looking at a trade that is therapeutic. The bottom line is you talk to any economist, there is not a single example in history where a trade war had a winner. Trade wars are for losers. The bottom line is we've gotta recognize- let's negotiate a better trade deal, but you're not gonna win against China in a trade war, when they've got 25 percent of our total debt.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Step back and look at- here's Trump gives that giant tax cut. And at the same time, so we're paying in tariffs about $800 to $1,200 per household, and then we give this incredible tax cut to the rich. Essentially, what's happening now – he's transferred that tax obligation onto the middle class. That's what's outrageous, but tariffs are not the solution.

Don Lemon:
Governor, thank you, Senator Warren?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Anyone who thinks that these trade deals are mostly about terrorists just doesn't understand what's going on. Look at the new NAFTA 2.0. What's the central feature? It's to help pharmaceutical companies get longer periods of exclusivity so they can charge Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans more money and make more profits. That's what trade deals have become. They have become a way for giant multinationals to change the regulatory environment, so they can suck more profits out for themselves and to leave the American people behind. We have to have the courage to fight back against that corruption.

Don Lemon:
Senator, thank you. Governor Bullock, your response?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
A farmer in [Rippey] said to me, "Every time that Trump tweets, we lose hundreds of thousands of dollars." If Montana had to eat all the wheat that we produce, every Montanan would have to eat 40 loaves of bread a day. But by the same token, what we have is- I actually agree with Senator Warren on this, in part. Corporations can move capital easy. Workers can't move. Going forward, we need to make sure that our trade deals actually are protecting- thinking about the workers. They can't be the stepchild. But the way to do it with his blunt instrument of tariffs that the president is doing, that's not how we get a fair deal for farmers anywhere or the manufacturers here in Detroit [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Governor, thank you very much. Mayor, stand by, please. Stand by, please. Please abide by the rules. Mayor Buttigieg, on Thursday of this week, a GM plant in Michigan will stop production – the latest auto plant to cease operations in the industrial Midwest. This comes as part of the company's modernization plans, which will eventually result in 6,000 hourly workers losing their jobs or being reassigned to other plants. What is your plan for retraining workers whose jobs are at risk?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Well, this happened in my community 20 years before I was born. When I was growing up, we were still picking up the pieces. Empty factories, empty houses, poverty. I know exactly what happens to a community when these closures take place, and there will be more. It's why we actually need to put the interests of workers first. Of course, we need to do retraining. We're doing it now in South Bend. We should continue to do it. But this is so much bigger than a trade fight. This is about a moment when the economy is changing before our eyes. There are people in the gig economy who go through more jobs in a week than my parents went through in their lifetime. It's why I've proposed that we allow gig workers to unionize, because a gig is a job, and a worker is a worker.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
We have to respond to all of these changes, and, in addition to confronting tech, in addition to supporting workers by doubling unionization, as I proposed to do, some of this is low tech, too, like the minimum wage is just too low. So-called conservative Christian senators, right now in the Senate, are blocking a bill to raise the minimum wage, when scripture says that whoever oppresses the poor taunts their maker.

Don Lemon:
Mayor, thank you very much. Congressman Delaney, I'm coming to you now. Your estimated net worth is more than $65 million. That would make you subject to Senator Warren's proposed wealth tax on the assets of the richest 75,000 homes, households, or so in the United States. Do you think Senator Warren's wealth tax is a fair way to fund childcare and education?

Congressman John Delaney:
I think wealthy Americans have to pay more. Listen, I grew up in a blue-collar family; first in my family to go to college; became a successful entrepreneur, created thousands of jobs, supported thousands of entrepreneurs all around this country. And I've done well financially. I think I should pay more in tax. I think wealthy Americans should pay more in tax. But we have to have a real solution.

Congressman John Delaney:
The real solution is to raise the capital gains rates. There is no reason why people who invest for a living should pay less than people who work for a living. That's ridiculous. It's the biggest loophole in our tax code. We act like wealthy individuals are endangered species, and if we raise their taxes, they won't invest. That's crazy. That's how we get more revenues from wealthy individuals – we roll back the Trump tax cuts to wealthy individuals. I think the wealth tax will be fought in court forever. It's arguably unconstitutional, and the countries that have had it have largely abandoned it because it's impossible to implement. But here again, real solutions, not impossible promises-

Don Lemon:
Congressman, thank you very much-

Congressman John Delaney:
-raise the capital gains tax, roll back the taxes on wealthy Americans-

Don Lemon:
Congressman- Thank you, Congressman-

Congressman John Delaney:
-that we could do in our first few months as president.

Don Lemon:
Senator Warren, please respond.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
So, I have proposed a wealth tax. It's now time to do that. It's time to tax the top one-tenth of one percent of fortunes in this country. Your first $50 million you can keep, free and clear, but your 50 millionth and first dollar, you've gotta pitch in two cents. Two cents. What can America do with two cents? We can provide universal childcare for every baby, age zero to five. We can provide universal pre-K for every three-year-old, and four-year-old. We can raise the wages of every childcare worker and preschool teacher in this country. We can provide universal tuition-free college. We can expand Pell. We can put $50 billion into our historically Black colleges and universities, and we can cancel student loan debt for 95 percent of the people who have it and start to close the wealth gap in America. It tells you how badly broken this economy is-

Don Lemon:
Senator, thank you very much. Congressman Delaney, please-

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
-that two cents from the wealthiest in this country would let us invest in the rest of America.

Don Lemon:
-thank you, Senator. Congressman- Senator, please. Congressman, please respond.

Congressman John Delaney:
This is not about whether wealthy- this is not about whether wealthy Americans should pay more. I think we're all in agreement on that. It's a question of do you have a real solution to make it happen? We can raise the capital gains rate to match the ordinary income. You know the last president to do that was actually Ronald Reagan. We can do that in our first year. I've called for that to be done, and it'll double the earned income tax credit. I've called for the expansion of universal pre-K so that every American has pre-K, and I do it through an additional tax on high-net-worth individuals-

Dana Bash:
Thank you-

Congressman John Delaney:
-but we don't need to come up with new taxes that are arguably unconstitutional-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman Delaney-

Congressman John Delaney:
-will be fought in court for years-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Congressman. We wanna turn to the issue [cross talk] of student debt-

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Can I just respond to that, please? [cross talk]

Dana Bash:
We're gonna turn to the issue of student debt now. Mayor Buttigieg, you've talked about how you and your husband are paying down six figures of student loan debt. Under Senator Sanders' proposal to cancel all student loan debt, yours would immediately be wiped away. Why wouldn't you support that?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
That'd be great for us. And then the next day, there would be a student loan program, and people would be out taking student loans, wondering why they weren't lucky enough in timing to get theirs wiped away completely, too. We can have debt-free college for low- and middle-income students by expanding Pell grants and compelling states to pick up more of the burden. And, on the back end, for those of us who do have a lot of debt, we can make it more affordable, and we can expand a public service loan forgiveness program, which is an excellent program that is almost impossible to actually get access to, right now. We can take these steps and have an approach that is actually fair.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
If we wanna start wiping away student debt, here's where I would start. I would start with the for-profit colleges that took advantage of people, especially veterans, by the way. The moment I redeployed, my Facebook ad feed started filling with ads from these for-profit colleges. Under President Obama, they were held accountable for whether they delivered results. President Trump, under a Secretary of Education who regrettably is from this state, did away with those rules. There is no accountability. On my watch, those colleges that turned the Department of Education into a predatory lender, that's where we would begin, when it came to getting rid of loans.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Mayor Buttigieg. Senator Sanders, you wanna forgive all student loan debt? Your response?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Matter of fact, I do, but before I get into that, the major issue that we don't talk about in Congress, we don't talk about in the media, is the massive level of income and wealth inequality in America. You've got three people who own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent; you've got top one percent that owns more wealth than the bottom 92 percent; 49 percent of all new income goes to the top one percent.

Companies like Amazon, and billionaires out there do not pay one nickel in federal income tax, and we've got 500,000 people sleeping out on the street. What we need is a political revolution that tells these billionaires and corporate America that they are Americans. They'll participate in our society. But they have got to start paying their fair share of taxes, period-

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Senator Sanders. Ms. Williamson [cross talk] you are proposing to make college free for all qualified students. Should the government pay for children from wealthier families to go to college?

Marianne Williamson:
I think that all domestic and international policy should be based on the idea that anything we do to help people thrive is a stimulation to our economy. That's how you stimulate your economy. So, if a few people take advantage, but there are four or five people who are going to take the money that they then have in the bank … When you look at this $1.5 trillion college debt … This is why I agree with Bernie, or I would be okay … Why don't we swap it? We had a $2 trillion tax cut, where 83 cents of every dollar goes to the very, very richest among us that does not stimulate the economy.

Marianne Williamson:
If we get rid of this college debt, think of all the young people who will have the discretionary spending. They'll be able to start their business. The best thing you could do to stimulate the U.S. economy is to get rid of this debt. This is not just about a plan to do it. It's about a philosophy of governing. I've heard some people here, tonight; I almost wonder why you're Democrats. You seem to think there's something wrong about using- about using the instruments of government to help people. That is what government should do. It should- all policy should help people thrive. That is how we will have peace, and that is how we will have prosperity.

Dana Bash:
Thank you, Ms. Williamson. Congressman O'Rourke, you don't support free four-year college. Your response to Ms. Williamson?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I support free two-year college. Earn that associates degree, realize your full potential … Debt free four-year college … But unlike some of the other candidates on the stage, that's not just for tuition. That is room, and books, and board – the full cost of being able to better yourself so that you can better this country. Then, for that school teacher, who, in many places, like Texas, is working a second or a third job, full forgiveness for her outstanding student loan debt. Forgiveness for that person willing to work at the V.A. and serve our former service members, and we do not do that at the expense of unions. We elevate them, as well, and make it easier to join an apprenticeship, to learn a skill or a trade that you can command for the rest of your life.

Dana Bash:
Thank you. Thank you, Congressman. Senator Klobuchar. Your response?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I want to make it easier for kids to go to college. And I think we do it by focusing our resources on the people that need it most. My problem with some of these plans is they literally would pay for wealthy kids, for Wall Street kids, to go to college. There's no difference. It says everyone is free. I don't think that makes sense. I'm very concerned, if we do things like that, the debt we're gonna pass on to the next generation, and the next generation. So, what I would do about student loan debt is that I would allow people to refinance it at a better rate, and I would make sure that we improve those student loan repayment programs for our teachers and expand them so that you literally, over 5-10 years, can get it paid for, if you go into occupations where we don't have enough workers. I think we need to mesh what we were just talking about with the economy with our education policy.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. I want to turn to foreign policy now. Senator Sanders, President Trump has argued that the United States cannot continue to be the, "policeman of the world." You said the exact same thing on a debate stage in 2016. If voters are hearing the same message from you and President Trump on the issue of military intervention, how should they expect that you will be any different from him?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Trump is a pathological liar. I tell the truth. We have been in Afghanistan, I think, 18 years; in Iraq, 16 or 17 years. We have spent $5 trillion on the war on terror, and there are probably more terrorists out there now than before it began. We're gonna spend- the Congress passed, and I will not vote for, a $750 billion military budget, more than the 10 next countries combined.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
What we need is a foreign policy that focuses on diplomacy, ending conflicts by people sitting at a table, not by killing each other. As president of the United States, I will go to the United Nations and not denigrate it, not attack the U.N., but bring countries together in the Middle East and all over the world to come to terms with their differences and solve those problems peacefully. The United States cannot be the policemen of the world.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Governor Hickenlooper, how do you respond to Senator Sanders' vision for America's role in the world?

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Well, we share the recognition of the incredible cost. People don't realize that half the soldiers that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan were National Guard. So I went and sent them off in their deployments. Big, noisy hangers. But I also mourned with their families, when they didn't come back.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
We are able now to- I call it constant engagement, but we should have an international diplomatic approach, where we're talking to everybody, because if we're gonna deal with climate change, and cybersecurity, and nuclear proliferation, we've gotta be talking to everybody. Tariff wars don't work. They're for losers.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Governor, I want to go to Congressman Ryan, and I wanna turn to the subject of North Korea, which, just hours ago, launched two short-range ballistic missiles for the second time in less than a week. Congressman, you've said that you would not meet with North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un unless you were at least close to a deal. Now, Senator Klobuchar says that she would, "Always be willing to meet with leaders to discuss policies." Is that a view wrong?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
Yeah, I think so. I love Amy Klobuchar, but I think she's wrong on this one. I don't think presidents of the United States meet with dictators. We saw what just happened with President Trump. He goes to the demilitarized zone with the leader of North Korea, gives him a huge photo op, gives him global credibility, because the most powerful person in the world is sitting there meeting with him. Weeks later, he's lobbing more missiles. That doesn't make any sense.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
We've got to demilitarize our foreign policy. We've gotta make sure that we are engaging these countries all the time. This is very difficult work. I've been in Congress 17 years. I sit on the Defense Appropriations Committee. I sat on the Armed Services Committee. This is a long, tedious work. Much of it done outside of the eye of the TV camera. And as president, you've got to monitor that and be very disciplined every day. Don't go give a dictator a huge win. Sit down and do your job. The same thing with what's happening in Central America. He's cutting the State Department budget … Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, where the migrants are coming from. Go fix the problem at its source and use diplomacy to do it.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Klobuchar, your response?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I think we agree. I just think you have to leave open the possibility of meeting with anyone at any place. What I don't like is how this president has handled it. You've heard of the Truman Doctrine, the Monroe Doctrine. He's done the Go it Alone doctrine with the rest of the world. He's taken us out of the climate change agreement, out of the Iran nuclear agreement, out of the Russian nuclear agreement. I don't agree with that.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
When he was just with Vladimir Putin at the G20, when he was asked about invading our democracy, he made a joke. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their lives on the battlefield to protect our democracy and our right to vote.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Four little girls in Birmingham, Alabama lost their life in a church at the height of the civil rights amendment. So, I do believe you meet with people, but you better have an agenda-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator-

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
-and you'd better put our interests of our country first, not the Russians.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Mayor Buttigieg, you served in Afghanistan, where, just yesterday, two U.S. service members were killed. There are currently about 14,000 U.S. service members in Afghanistan. You've said, "One thing everybody can agree on is that we're getting out of Afghanistan." Will you withdraw all U.S. service members by the end of your first year in office?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
We will withdraw. We have to.

Jake Tapper:
In your first year?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Yes. Look, around the world, we will do whatever it takes to keep America safe. But I thought I was one of the last troops leaving Afghanistan, when I thought I was turning out the lights years ago. Every time I see news about somebody being killed in Afghanistan, I think about what it was like to hear an explosion over there and wonder whether it was somebody that I served with, somebody that I knew – a friend, roommate, colleague. We're pretty close to the day when we will wake up to the news of a casualty in Afghanistan who was not born on 9/11.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I was sent into that war by a congressional authorization, as well as the President. And we need to talk not only about the need for a president committed to ending endless war, but the fact that Congress has been asleep at the switch. On my watch, I will propose that any authorization for the use of military force have a three-year sunset and have to be renewed, because if men and women in the military have the courage to go serve, members of Congress ought to have to summon the courage to vote on whether they oughta be there.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Mayor. I wanna bring in Congressman O'Rourke. Congressman O'Rourke, responding- returning, rather, to the question of whether you would withdraw all U.S. service members from Afghanistan during your first year in office as president, how do you respond, sir?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
I would, in my first term in office, agree that there is nothing about perpetuating this war, already in its 18th year, that will make it any better. We've satisfied the reasons for our involvement in Afghanistan in the first place. And it's time to bring those service members back home from Afghanistan, but also from Iraq, also from Yemen, and Somalia, and Libya, and Syria. There is no reason for us to be at war all over the world tonight. As president, I will in those wars, and we will not start new wars. We will not send more U.S. service members overseas to sacrifice their lives and to take the lives of others in our name. We can resolve these challenges peacefully, and diplomatically-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Congressman. Governor Hickenlooper, you disagree. You've said that you're open to keeping some service members in Afghanistan beyond your first term. Please respond.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
I look at it as a humanitarian issue. And with all due respect, you're looking at the condition of women … If we completely pull our troops out of there, you're gonna see a humanitarian disaster that will startle and frighten every man, woman, and child in this country. I don't think … We have troops in over 400 different locations around the world. Most of them are small; they're peacekeeping; they're not greatly at risk. We're gonna have to be an Afghanistan. Look at the progress that's happened in that country. We're gonna turn our backs and walk away from people that have risked their lives to help us and build a different future for Afghanistan and that part of the world?

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Warren, you wanna make it U.S. policy that the U.S. will never use a nuclear weapon unless another country uses one first. Now, President Obama reportedly considered that policy, but ultimately decided against it. Why should the U.S. tie its own hands with that policy?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Because it makes the world safer. The United States is not going to use nuclear weapons preemptively, and we need to say so to the entire world. It reduces the likelihood that someone miscalculates, someone misunderstands. Our first responsibility is to keep ourselves safe. What's happening right now with Donald Trump, as they keep expanding the different ways that we have nuclear weapons, the different ways that they could be used, puts us all at risk.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
You know, we talk about what's happening around the world. I have three older brothers who served in the military. I see that they would do anything. Our military is the best on earth, but we should not be asking our military to take on jobs that do not have a military solution. We need to use our diplomatic tools, our economic tools. If we're gonna send someone into war, we better have a plan for how we're gonna get them out on the other end.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator- Thank you, Senator. Governor Bullock, your response to Senator Warren's proposal to the U.S. never using a nuclear weapon first?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
I wouldn't wanna take that off the table. I think America's strength- we have to be able to say that. Look. Never, I hope … Certainly in my term, or anyone else, would we really even get close to pulling that trigger, but by the same token, America's strength … Look, this president's made it America versus America alone. Our allies no longer trust us; our adversaries are with us, but going from a position of strength, we should be negotiating down so there aren't nuclear weapons. But drawing those lines in the sand, at this point, I wouldn't do.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Governor. Senator Warren, your response?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
We don't expand trust around the world by saying we might be the first ones to use a nuclear weapon. That puts the entire world at risk and puts us at risk, right in the middle of this, at a time when Donald Trump is pulling out of our nuclear negotiations, expanding the opportunities for nuclear proliferation around the world; has pulled us out of the deal in Iran. And Iran is now working on its nuclear weapon. The world gets closer and closer to nuclear warfare [cross talk] we have to have an announced policy that is one the entire world can live with. We need to make that clear. We will respond if somebody else does, but not first-

Jake Tapper:
Thank you, Senator. Governor Bullock, please respond.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Part I agree with, but by the same token, we need to get back to nuclear proliferation.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Why?

Gov. Steve Bullock:
But when you have folks … De-proliferation, reducing it. But, at the same time, when you actually have Korea, when you have others, I don't wanna turn around and say, "Well, Detroit has to be gone before we would ever use that …" When so many crazy folks are getting closer to having a nuclear weapon, I don't want them to think, "I could strike this country, and I, and we, as the United States of America wouldn't do a thing." Part of the strength really is the ability to deter [cross talk]

Don Lemon:
Governor, thank you very much. Moving on now [cross talk] Moving on now- please, Senator. Senator, please. Moving on now, as you know, to serve as president of the United States – all of you know this – you have to be at least 35 years old. So, Mayor Buttigieg, you just qualified. You're 37. The youngest candidate in this field. Standing next to you is the oldest candidate, Bernie Sanders, at age 77. Should voters take into consideration age when choosing a presidential candidate?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
I don't care how old you are, I care about your vision. But I do think it matters that we have a new generation of leaders stepping up around the world; leaders like the … I actually think it's good that the prime minister of New Zealand's gotten a lot of attention in Democratic debates. She's masterful. She is younger than I would be when I take office. This is the kind of trying to America might be leading, instead of following, but only if it's actually backed by the right vision. We can have great presidents at any age.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
What I will say is we need the kind of vision that's gonna win. We cannot have a vision that amounts to back to normal. The only reason we got this president is that normal didn't work. We have to be ready to take on this president, and – by the way, something that hasn't been talked about as much, tonight – take on his enablers in Congress. When David Duke- when David Duke ran for Congress- ran for governor, the Republican Party, 20 years ago, ran away from him. Today, they are supporting naked racism in the White House, or are, at best, silent about it.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
If you were watching this at home and you are a Republican member of Congress, consider the fact that when the sun sets on your career and they are writing your story of all the good and bad things you did in your life, the thing you will be remembered for is whether, in this moment, with this president, you found the courage to stand up to him or you continued to put party over country.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Mayor. Senator Sanders, as a senior statesman of the group, please respond to Mayor Buttigieg.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Pete is right. It's a question of vision. That's what it is, whether you're young, whether you're old, whether you're in between. My vision, among other things, says that if we're gonna fight for healthcare, we don't take money from the drug companies or the insurance companies. I have asked all of the candidates who are running to say they will not accept money from those entities who, in my view, are going to war against the American people in terms of healthcare. That's a new vision. A new vision says that we must cancel completely student debt, because the younger generation in this country today, for the first time in modern American history, will have a lower standard of living than their parents.

Don Lemon:
Thank you, Senator Sanders.

Jake Tapper:
We have covered a lot of ground tonight. Now it is time for closing statements. You will each receive one minute. Governor Bullock, we're gonna begin with you.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
Thanks, Jake. I was raised in a single parent household, at times, paycheck to paycheck. Only knew there was a governor's house in town, because I delivered newspapers to it. So, I've made it about four blocks in life. Worked my way through college, paid my way through law school, but, you know, I had a chance to actually go from delivering newspapers to the governor's house, as a kid, to now raising our three kids in it. We've gotta recognize, for far too many people now, in America, that shot no longer exists, and for far too many in this country, it never happens.

Gov. Steve Bullock:
I'm running for president to beat Donald Trump, win back the places we lost, and make sure that Americans know that where Washington's left them behind in their economy, and their political system, I'll be there. This isn't a choice just between center and left, or about … We don't have to choose between what we don't want and what we can't afford. Folks want a different way. They want to believe the economy and our democracy can work for us. That's why I'm running for president.

Jake Tapper:
Thank you. Ms. Williamson?

Marianne Williamson:
Yes. Our problem is not just that we need to defeat Donald Trump. We need a plan to solve institutionalized hatred, collectivized hatred, and white nationalism. In order to do that, we need more than political insider game, and wonkiness, and intellectual argument. Those things will not defeat Donald Trump. We need some radical truth telling, not just to talk about healthcare, but talk about why we're so sick all the time. We need to have a serious conversation about race and what is truly owed.

Marianne Williamson:
Even on the subject of foreign policy, it's all about symptoms and not about cause. We need to talk about the fact that the United States is sacrificing our moral leadership. The fact that countries see us not only domestically, but internationally with policies that simply support our corporate overlords. The fact that our national defense agenda is driven more by short-term profits for defense contractors than by genuine peace building.

Marianne Williamson:
There is some corruption that is so deep, ladies and gentlemen, and until the Democratic Party is ready to speak to the deeper corruption, knowing that we ourselves, sometimes, because of our own corporate donations, have participated, then I'm afraid those who vote for Trump will continue to vote for Trump, and those who might not like Donald Trump will continue to stay home.

Marianne Williamson:
I want a politics that goes much deeper. I want a politics that speaks to the heart, because the only way to fight … You keep talking about how we're gonna fight Donald Trump. You can't fight dog whistles; you have to override them. The only way you can override them is with new voices, voices of energy that only come from the fact that America has been willing to live up to our own mistakes, atone for our own mistakes, make amends for our own mistakes. Love each other. Love our democracy. Love future generations. Something emotional and psychological that will not be emerging from anything on this stage. It will emerge from something I'm the one who's qualified to bring forth.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman Delaney.

Congressman John Delaney:
Thank you, Jake. John F. Kennedy famously said we should not seek the Republican answer. We should not seek the Democratic answer. We should seek the right answer. He was right when he said it, and he's right today, as well. Donald Trump is the symptom of a disease and the disease is divisiveness. I'm the only one on the stage talking about curing that disease, with big ideas like national service, by focusing on actually solving problems.

Congressman John Delaney:
If we work together, we can fix healthcare and build infrastructure. We can invest in not just technology, but people, and entrepreneurs, whether they be in Storm Lake, Iowa, or Detroit, Michigan, or Baltimore, Maryland. We can fight climate change and reimagine our education system, but we have to do it with real solutions, not impossible promises. Isn't it time we had a president who was a leader in both the private sector and in government to lead us into the future? I promise, as president, I will restore vision, unity, and leadership, and decency to this country. That's why I'm running for president. Thank you.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman Ryan?

Congressman Tim Ryan:
So, in a few minutes, all of the pundits are gonna be looking at this debate and saying, "Well, who captured the left lane? Who captured the center lane? Who captured the moderate lane?" I hope tonight, at some level, I captured your imagination – your imagination about what this country could be like if we united, if we put together real policies that weren't left or right, but new and better. That's how we win the future.

Congressman Tim Ryan:
It's new and better – a new and better economy; a new and better education system; a new and better healthcare system that focuses on prevention; an education system that focuses on the trauma of our kids. There's not gonna be a savior. Not gonna be a superstar that's gonna fix all this. It's gonna be you and me. It's gonna be us. That's how we fix this country – you and I coming together to do big things, to imagine the new country that we want by coming together. Not left or right. New and better.

Jake Tapper:
Governor Hickenlooper.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
Thank you, and what a night. I've loved it. I'd like to ask every American to imagine that you are facing life-threatening surgery tomorrow. Would you choose a doctor who had a track record of proven success, who's actually done the work, or someone who had just talked about it? That's the question we're facing in this primary.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
I've actually got a track record as a small business owner, as a mayor, and as a governor. We expanded healthcare in Colorado and got near universal coverage. We fought climate change directly. We beat the NRA. For the last three years, we've been the number-one economy in the country. We can ramp all that out.

Gov. John Hickenlooper:
I'm as progressive as anybody up on this stage, but I'm also pragmatic, and I've done the things that most these other people are just talking about, and I know I can get results. I can lead the people of this country toward a stronger, a healthier, and a more secure future; defeat Donald Trump and return this country to its glory. Thank you.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Klobuchar?

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
Well, thank you, Detroit. To win, we have to listen to people, and out there today is Casey Jo's mom, Casey Jo was a champion high school swimmer from a small town. She got sick, went to the emergency room, and got hooked on opioids. The last thing that she said to her mom was, "Mama, it's not my fault," and she died. A lot of Americans say the same thing every day. That is what I will stand up for.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
What I will stand up against are companies like those pharma companies that got her hooked on those opioids and didn't tell the doctors, or the patients what was gonna happen. We need someone that has people's back. We also need someone that can win. I have won in these red districts. I win in the Midwest. I can win in states like Wisconsin, and Michigan, and Iowa.

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
I also will do my job without fear, or favor, just like I did as a prosecutor and get through the gridlock, like I've done as a senator, where I've passed over 100 bills, where I've been the lead Democrat. Last, yes, I will govern with integrity. We have a president where people turn off their TV when they see him. Not me. I will make you proud, as your president.

Jake Tapper:
Congressman O'Rourke?

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
We are as divided and polarized as a country as we have ever been. Right now, we have a president who uses fear to try to drive us further apart. To meet this challenge, we have to have hope in one another and a faith in a future of this country that includes everyone. My whole life, I've been including people in the success of this country; starting a small business with high value, high wage, high skill jobs in the third poorest urban county in America; serving on the city council and holding town hall meetings every single week to remind myself who it is that I serve at the end of the day.

Congressman Beto O'Rourke:
In Congress, being in the minority, but working with Democrats and Republicans alike to deliver for my constituents and this country. Then in Texas, this last year, traveling to every county, not writing anybody off, not taking anyone for granted, and, at the end of the day, winning more votes than any Democrat had in the history of the state, winning independents for the first time in decades, and winning nearly half a million Republicans. Those 38 Electoral College votes in Texas are now in play, and I can win them. That is how we defeat Donald Trump in November of 2020 and how we bring this divided country together again in January of 2021. Thank you.

Jake Tapper:
Mayor Buttigieg?

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
There's good news and bad news. I'm gonna start with the bad news. Our country is in trouble. GDP is going up and life expectancy is going down. Think about what that means. It's only getting tougher. By 2030, we will have passed the point of no return on climate. There are gonna be 130 million more guns on our streets. I'll be in my 40s then. If you have kids, think about how old they will be then.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
Here's the good news – it's not too late. We can tell our kids that before we ran out of time, just before we ran out of time, in 2020, we did what it took to deliver a climate that we didn't have to wonder if it could support us; to deliver a society where race has no bearing on your health, or your wealth, or your relationship with law enforcement; that we did what it took to deliver an economy where a rising tide actually does lift all boats.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg:
We can do this, if, and only if we are ready to walk away from what hasn't worked with bold action and win; not only defeat this president, but defeat his congressional allies with a defeat so big that it reunites the Republican Party with its conscience, as well as bringing Democrats to office. Join me and let's make it happen.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Warren?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
From the time I was seven years old, I had a dream. I wanted to be a public-school teacher, but my daddy ended up as a janitor, and by the time I graduated from high school, my family didn't have the money to send me off to college. My big chance was what was then a commuter college that cost $50 a semester. For me, what this election is all about is opportunity. Every budget, every policy that we talk about is about who's going to get opportunity. Is it gonna go to the billionaires, or is it gonna go to our kids?

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
Right now, for decades, we have had a government that has been on the side of the rich and the powerful. It has been on the side of the wealthy. And that means it has not been on the side of everyone else, not on the side of people living on our Native American reservations, people living in inner cities, people living in small farms and small communities across this country.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren:
How do we beat it? We beat it by being the party of big structural change. Give people a reason to show up and vote. We beat it by building a grassroots movement across this country, not showing up behind closed doors with millionaires, but actually building it, person by person, across this country with small dollar donations, with volunteers, with people who show up and say, "I have a stake in this democracy." I will not only beat Donald Trump in 2020, I'll start to make real change, come 2021.

Jake Tapper:
Senator Sanders?

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
As somebody who grew up in a family that lived in a rent-controlled apartment in Brooklyn, New York, and lived paycheck to paycheck, I'm running for president not just to defeat the most dangerous president in the history of this country – a guy who's a racist, and a sexist, and a homophobe – I'm running to transform this country and to stand with the working class of America, which for the last 45 years has been decimated.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
Two days ago, I had a remarkable experience, which should tell you everything you need to know about what's going on in America. I took 15 people with diabetes from Detroit a few miles into Canada, and we bought insulin for one-tenth the price being charged by the crooks who run the pharmaceutical industry in America today. But it's not just the price fixing, and the corruption, and the greed of the pharmaceutical industry. It's what's going on in the fossil fuel industry. It's what's going on in Wall Street. It's what's going on with the prison industrial complex.

Sen. Bernie Sanders:
We need a mass political movement. Please go to BernieSanders.com, become one of our million volunteers. Stand up and take on the greed, and corruption of the ruling class of this country. Let's create a government and an economy that works for all of us, not just the one percent.

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: How Great Leaders Inspire Action – Simon Sinek – TED

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Simon Sinek:
How do you explain when things don't go as we assume, or better, how do you explain when others are able to achieve things that seem to defy all of the assumptions? For example, why is Apple so innovative? Year, after year, after year, after year, they're more innovative than all their competition. And yet, they're just a computer company. They're just like everyone else. They have the same access to the same talent, the same agencies, the same consultants, the same media. Then, why is it that they seem to have something different?

Simon Sinek:
Why is it that Martin Luther King led the civil rights movement? He wasn't the only man who suffered in a pre-civil rights America, and he certainly wasn't the only great orator of the day. Why him? Why is it that the Wright brothers were able to figure out controlled powered manned flight when there were certainly other teams who were better qualified, better funded, and they didn't achieve powered manned flight? The Wright brothers beat them to it.

Simon Sinek:
There's something else at play here. About three-and-a-half years ago, I made a discovery, and this discovery profoundly changed my view on how I thought the world worked. It even profoundly changed the way in which I operate in it. As it turns out, there's a pattern. As it turns out, all the great and inspiring leaders and organizations in the world, whether it's Apple, or Martin Luther King, or the Wright brothers, they all think, act, and communicate in the exact same way, and it's the complete opposite to everyone else. All I did was codify it.

Simon Sinek:
It's probably the world's simplest idea. I call it the Golden Circle – Why How? What? This little idea explains why some organizations and some leaders are able to inspire where others aren't. Let me define the terms really quickly. Every single person, every single organization on the planet knows what they do, 100 percent. Some know how they do it, whether you call it your differentiating value proposition, or your proprietary process, or a USP.

Simon Sinek:
Very, very few people or organizations know why they do what they do. By 'why,' I don't mean to make a profit. That's a result. It's always a result. By 'why,' I mean, what's your purpose? What's your cause? What's your belief? Why does your organization exist? Why do you get out of bed in the morning, and why should anyone care?

Simon Sinek:
Well, as a result, the way we think, the way we act, the way we communicate is from the outside in. It's obvious, we go from the clearest thing to the fuzziest thing. The inspired leaders and the inspired organizations, regardless of their size, regardless of their industry, all think, act, and communicate from the inside out.

Simon Sinek:
Let me give you an example. I use Apple, because they're easy to understand and everybody gets it. If Apple were like everyone else, a marketing message from them might sound like this. "We make great computers. They're beautifully designed, simple to use, and user-friendly. Wanna buy one?" Meh … That's how most of us communicate. That's how most marketing is done, that's how most sales is done, and that's how most of us communicate interpersonally.

Simon Sinek:
We say what we do. We say how we're different or how we're better, and we expect some sort of behavior – a purchase, a vote, something like that. "Here's our new law firm. We have the best lawyers with the biggest clients. We always perform for our clients. Do business with us." "Here's our new car. It gets great gas mileage. It has no leather seats. Buy our car," but it's uninspiring.

Simon Sinek:
Here's how Apple actually communicates. "Everything we do, we believe in challenging the status quo. We believe in thinking differently. The way we challenge the status quo is by making our products beautifully designed, simple to use, and user-friendly. We just happen to make great computers. Wanna buy one?" Totally different, right? You're ready to buy a computer from me. All I did was reverse the order of the information.

Simon Sinek:
What it proves to us is that people don't buy what you do, people buy why you do it. People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. This explains why every single person in this room is perfectly comfortable buying a computer from Apple, but we're also perfectly comfortable buying an MP3 player from Apple, or a phone from Apple, or a DVR from Apple.

Simon Sinek:
As I said before, Apple's just a computer company. There's nothing that distinguishes them structurally from any of their competitors. Their competitors are all equally qualified to make all of these products. In fact, they tried. A few years ago. Gateway came out with flat screen TVs. They're eminently qualified to make flat screen TVs. They've been making flat screen monitors for years. Nobody bought one.

Simon Sinek:
Dell came out with MP3 players and PDAs, and they make great quality products, and they can make perfectly well-designed products, and nobody bought one. In fact, talking about it now, we can't even imagine buying an MP3 player from Dell. Why would you buy an MP3 player from a computer company? But we do it every day. People don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. The goal is not to do business with everybody who needs what you have. The goal is to do business with people who believe what you believe.

Simon Sinek:
Here's the best part – none of what I'm telling you is my opinion. It's all grounded in the tenets of biology; not psychology, biology. If you look at a cross section of the human brain, looking from the top down, what you see is the human brain is actually broken into three major components that correlate perfectly with the Golden Circle.

Simon Sinek:
Our newest brain, our homo sapiens brain, our neocortex, corresponds with the 'what' level. The neocortex is responsible for all of our rational and analytical thought and language. The middle two sections make up our limbic brains. Our limbic brains are responsible for all of our feelings, like trust and loyalty. It's also responsible for all human behavior, all decision making, and it has no capacity for language.

Simon Sinek:
In other words, when we communicate from the outside in, yes, people can understand vast amounts of complicated information, like features, and benefits, and facts, and figures. It just doesn't drive behavior. When we communicate from the inside out, we're talking directly to the part of the brain that controls behavior, and then we allow people to rationalize it with the tangible things we say and do.

Simon Sinek:
This is where gut decisions come from. Sometimes, you can give somebody all the facts and your figures, and he said, "I know what all the facts and details say, but it just doesn't feel right." Why do we use that verb? It doesn't 'feel' right? Because the part of the brain that controls decision making doesn't control language. The best we can muster up is, "I don't know. It just doesn't feel right." Sometimes, you say you're leading with your heart, or you're leading with your soul. Well, I hate to break it to you, those aren't other body parts controlling your behavior. It's all happening here in your limbic brain; the part of the brain that controls decision making and not language.

Simon Sinek:
If you don't know why you do what you do, and people respond to why you do what you do, then how will anybody … How will you ever get people to vote for you, or buy something from you, or, more importantly, be loyal, and want to be a part of what it is that you do? Again, the goal is not just to sell to people who need what you have. The goal is to sell to people who believe what you believe.

Simon Sinek:
The goal is not just to hire people who need a job; it's to hire people who believe what you believe. I always say that if you hire people just because they can do a job, they'll work for your money, but if you hire people who believe what you believe, they work for you with blood, and sweat, and tears. Nowhere else is there a better example of this than with the Wright brothers.

Simon Sinek:
Most people don't know about Samuel Pierpont Langley. Back in the early 20th century, the pursuit of powered manned flight was like the Dot-Com of the day. Everybody was trying it. Samuel Pierpont Langley had what we assume to be the recipe for success. Even now, when you ask people, "Why did your product, or why did your company fail?" People always give you the same permutation of the same three things – undercapitalized, the wrong people, bad market conditions. It's always the same three things.

Simon Sinek:
Let's explore that. Samuel Pierpont Langley was given $50,000 by the War Department to figure out this flying machine. Money was no problem. He held a seat at Harvard and worked at the Smithsonian and was extremely well-connected. He knew all the big minds of the day. He hired the best minds money could find and the market conditions were fantastic. The New York Times followed him around everywhere, and everyone was rooting for Langley.

Simon Sinek:
How come we've never heard of Samuel Pierpont Langley? A few hundred miles away in Dayton, Ohio, Orville, and Wilbur Wright … They had none of what we consider to be the recipe for success. They had no money. They paid for their dream with the proceeds from their bicycle shop. Not a single person on the Wright Brothers team had a college education; not even Orville or Wilbur. The New York Times followed them around nowhere.

Simon Sinek:
The difference was Orville and Wilbur were driven by a cause, by a purpose, by a belief. They believed that if they could figure out this flying machine, it'll change the course of the world. Samuel Pierpont Langley was different. He wanted to be rich, and he wanted to be famous. He was in pursuit of the result. He was in pursuit of the riches.

Simon Sinek:
Lo and behold, look what happened. The people who believed in the Wright brothers' dream worked with them with blood, and sweat, and tears. The others just worked for the paycheck. They tell stories of how every time the Wright brothers went out, they would have to take five sets of parts, because that's how many times they would crash before they came in for supper. Eventually, on December 17th, 1903, the Wright brothers took flight, and no one was there to even experience it. We found out about it a few days later.

Simon Sinek:
Further proof that Langley was motivated by the wrong thing, the day the Wright brothers took flight, he quit. He could have said, "That's an amazing discovery, guys, and I will improve upon your technology," but he didn't. He wasn't first. He didn't get rich. He didn't get famous. He quit.

Simon Sinek:
People don't buy what you do; they buy why you do it. If you talk about what you believe, you will attract those who believe what you believe. Well, why is it important to attract those who believe what you believe? Something called the law of diffusion of innovation. If you don't know the law, you definitely know the terminology.

Simon Sinek:
The first 2.5 percent of our population are our innovators. The next 13.5 percent of our population are our early adopters. The next 34 percent are your early majority, your late majority, and your laggards. The only reason these people buy touch-tone phones is because you can't buy rotary phones anymore.

Simon Sinek:
We all sit at various places at various times on this scale, but what the law of diffusion of innovation tells us is that if you want mass-market success, or mass-market acceptance of an idea, you cannot have it until you achieve this tipping point between 15- and 18-percent market penetration. Then the system tips.

Simon Sinek:
I love asking businesses, "What's your conversion on new business?" They love to tell you, "Oh, it's about 10 percent," proudly. Well, you can trip over 10 percent of the customers. We all have about 10 percent who just get it. That's how we describe them, right? That's like that gut feeling. They just get it. The problem is, how do you find the ones that just get it before you're doing business with them versus the ones who don't get it?

Simon Sinek:
It's this here, this little gap that you have to close; as Geoffrey Moore calls it, crossing the chasm. Because, you see, the early majority will not try something until someone else has tried it first. These guys, the innovators, and the early adopters, they're comfortable making those gut decisions. They're more comfortable making those intuitive decisions that are driven by what they believe about the world and not just what product is available.

Simon Sinek:
These are the people who stood on line for six hours to buy an iPhone when they first came out, when you could have just walked into the store the next week and bought one off the shelf. These are the people who spent $40,000 dollars on flat screen TVs when they first came out, even though the technology was substandard. By the way, they didn't do it because the technology was so great; they did it for themselves, because they wanted to be first.

Simon Sinek:
People don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. What you do simply proves what you believe. In fact, people will do the things that prove what they believe. The reason that person bought the iPhone in the first six hours, and stood in second in line for six hours, was because of what they believed about the world and how they wanted everybody to see them. They were first. People don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it.

Simon Sinek:
Let me give you a famous example – a famous failure and a famous success – of the law of diffusion of innovation. First, the famous failure. It's a commercial example. As we said before, a second ago, the recipe for success is money, and the right people, and the right market conditions, right? You should have success then.

Simon Sinek:
Look at TiVo. From the time TiVo came out, about eight or nine years ago, to this current day, they are the single highest-quality product on the market, hands down. There is no dispute. They were extremely well-funded. Market conditions were fantastic. I mean, we used TiVo as a verb. I TiVo-ed stuff on my piece-of-junk Time Warner DVR all the time. But TiVo is a commercial failure. They've never made money. When they went IPO, their stock was at about $30 or $40 and then plummeted, and it's never traded above $10. In fact, I don't even think it's traded above $6, except for a couple of little spikes.

Simon Sinek:
Because, you see, when TiVo launched their product, they told us all what they had. They said, "We have a product that pauses live TV, skips commercials, rewinds live TV, and memorizes your viewing habits without you even asking." The cynical majority said, "We don't believe you. We don't need it. We don't like it. You're scaring us." What if they had said, "If you're the kind of person who likes to have total control over every aspect of your life, boy, do we have a product for you. It pauses live TV, skips commercials, memorizes your viewing habits," et cetera, et cetera? People don't buy what you do; they buy why you do it, and what you do simply serves as the proof of what you believe.

Simon Sinek:
Now, let me give you a successful example of the law of diffusion of innovation. In the summer of 1963, 250,000 people showed up on the Mall in Washington to hear Dr. King speak. They sent out no invitations, and there was no website to check the date. How do you do that? Well, Dr. King wasn't the only man in America who was a great orator. He wasn't the only man in America who suffered in a pre-civil rights America. In fact, some of his ideas were bad, but he had a gift.

Simon Sinek:
He didn't go around telling people what needed to change in America. He went around and told people what he believed. "I believe. I believe. I believe," he told people. People who believed what he believed took his cause, and they made it their own, and they told people. Some of those people created structures to get the word out to even more people, and lo and behold, 250,000 people showed up on the right day, on the right time, to hear him speak.

Simon Sinek:
How many of them showed up for him? Zero. They showed up for themselves. It's what they believed about America that got them to travel in a bus for eight hours to stand in the sun in Washington in the middle of August. It's what they believed. It wasn't about black versus white; 25 percent of the audience was white.

Simon Sinek:
Dr. King believed that there are two types of laws in this world – those that are made by a higher authority and those that are made by man. Not until all the laws that are made by men are consistent with the laws that are made by the higher authority, will we live in a just world. It just so happens that the civil rights movement was the perfect thing to help him bring his cause to life. We followed, not for him, but for ourselves. By the way, he gave the 'I Have a Dream' speech, not the 'I Have a Plan' speech. I listen to politicians now with their comprehensive 12-point plans. They're not inspiring anybody.

Simon Sinek:
There are leaders and there are those who lead. Leaders hold a position of power or authority, but those who lead inspire us, whether they're individuals or organizations. We follow those who lead not because we have to, but because we want to. We follow those who lead, not for them, but for ourselves. It's those who start with 'why' that have the ability to inspire those around them or find others who inspire them. Thank you very much.

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: Do Schools Kill Creativity – Sir Ken Robinson – TED

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Sir Ken Robinson:
Good morning. How are you? It's been great, hasn't it? I've been blown away by the whole thing. In fact, I'm leaving. There have been three themes, haven't there, running through the conference, which are rather relevant to what I want to talk about. One is the extraordinary evidence of human creativity in all of the presentations that we've had and in all the people here; just the variety of it and the range of it. The second is that it's put us in a place where we have no idea what's going to happen in terms of future; no idea how this may play out.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I have an interest in education. Actually, what I find is everybody has an interest in education. Don't you? I found this very interesting … If you're at a dinner party, and you say you work in education … Actually, you're not often at dinner parties, frankly, if you work in education. You're not asked, and you're never asked back, curiously. That's a bit strange to me. But if you are, and you say to somebody … They say, "What do you do?" And you say you work in education, you can see the blood run from their face. They think, "Oh, my God, why me? My one night out all week …" If you ask me about their education, they pin you to the wall, because it's one of those things that goes deep with people. Am I right? Like religion, and money, and other things.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I have a big interest in education. I think we all do. We have a huge vested interest in it, partly because it's education that's meant to take us into this future that we can't grasp. If you think of it, children starting school this year will be retiring in 2065. Nobody has a clue – despite all the expertise that's been on parade for the past four days – what the world will look like in five years' time. Yet, we're meant to be educating them for it. The unpredictability, I think, is extraordinary.

Sir Ken Robinson:
The third part of this is that we've all agreed, nonetheless, on the really extraordinary capacities that children have; their capacities for innovation. I mean, Serena, last night, was a marvel, wasn't she? Just seeing what she could do. She's exceptional, but I think she's not, so to speak, exceptional in the whole of childhood. What you have there is a person of extraordinary dedication, who found a talent. My contention is all kids have tremendous talents, and we squander them pretty ruthlessly.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I want to talk about education, and I want to talk about creativity. My contention is that creativity, now, is as important in education as literacy, and we should treat it with the same status. Thank you. That was it, by the way. Thank you very much. So, 15 minutes left … Well, I was born …

Sir Ken Robinson:
I heard a great story recently – I love telling it – of a little girl who was in a drawing lesson. She was six, and she was at the back, drawing. The teacher said this little girl hardly ever paid attention. In this drawing lesson, she did, and the teacher was fascinated. She went over to her, and she said, "What are you drawing?" The girl said, "I'm drawing a picture of God." The teacher said, "But nobody knows what God looks like," and the girl said, "They will in a minute."

Sir Ken Robinson:
When my son was four, in England … Actually, he was four, everywhere, to be honest, I mean, if we're being strict about it. Wherever he went, he was four that year. He was in the Nativity play. Do you remember the story? No, it was big. It was a big story. Mel Gibson did the sequel. You may have seen it. Nativity II.

Sir Ken Robinson:
James got the part of Joseph, which we were thrilled about. We considered this to be one of the lead parts. We had the place crammed full of agents and T- shirts. You know, James Robinson is Joseph. We had … He didn't have to speak, but you know the bit where the three kings come in? Now, they come in bearing gifts, and they bring gold, frankincense and myrrh. This really happened … We're sitting there and they, I think, just went out a sequence, because we talked to the little boy afterwards, and said, you know, "You okay with that?" He said, "Hey, why? Was that wrong?" They just switched. I think that was it.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Anyway, the three boys came in, little four-year-olds with tea towels on their heads, and they put these boxes down. The first boy said, "I bring you gold." The second boy said, "I bring you myrrh." And the third boy said, "Frank sent this." What these things have in common is that kids will take a chance, and if they don't know, they'll have a go. Am I right? They're not frightened of being wrong.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Now. I don't mean to say that being wrong is the same thing as being creative. What we do know is if you're not prepared to be wrong, you'll never come up with anything original. If you're not prepared to be wrong … By the time they get to be adults, most kids have lost that capacity. They have become frightened of being wrong. We run our companies this- by the way. We stigmatize mistakes.

Sir Ken Robinson:
We're now running national education systems where mistakes are the worst thing you can make. The result is that we are educating people out of their creative capacities. Picasso once said this – he said that all children are born artists. The problem is to remain an artist as we grow up. I believe this passionately that we don't grow into creativity, we grow out of it; or, rather, we get educated out of it. Why is this?

Sir Ken Robinson:
I lived in Stratford on Avon until about five years ago. In fact, we moved from Stratford to Los Angeles. You can imagine what a seamless transition this was from L.A. Actually, we lived in a place called Smithfield, just outside Stratford, which is where Shakespeare's father was born. Are you struck by a new thought? I was.

Sir Ken Robinson:
You don't think of Shakespeare having a father, do you? Do you? Because you don't think of Shakespeare being a child, do you? Shakespeare being seven … I never thought of it. I mean, he was seven, at some point. He was in somebody's English class, wasn't he? Really … How annoying would that be? Must try harder! Being sent to bed by his dad … To Shakespeare, "Go to bed now!" To William Shakespeare … "And put the pencil down and stop speaking like that! It's confusing everybody!"

Sir Ken Robinson:
Anyway, we moved from Stratford to Los Angeles, and I just wanted to say what about the transition … Actually, my son didn't want to come. I've got two kids. He's 21 now, and my daughter's 16. He didn't want to come to Los Angeles. He loved it, but he had a girlfriend in England. This was the love of his life, Sarah. He'd known her for a month. Mind you, they'd had their fourth anniversary by then, because it's a long time when you're 16. Anyway, he was really upset on the plane. He said, "I'll never find another girl like Sarah," and we were rather pleased about that, frankly, because she was the main reason we were leaving the country.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Something strikes you when you move to America and when you travel around the world. Every education system on Earth has the same hierarchy of subjects. Everyone. Doesn't matter where you go. You think it would be otherwise, but it isn't. At the top are mathematics and languages, then the humanities, and the bottom are the arts, everywhere on Earth. And in pretty much every system, too, there's a hierarchy within the arts. Art and music are normally given a higher status in schools than drama and dance. There isn't an education system on the planet that teaches dance every day to children the way we teach them mathematics.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Why? Why not? I think this is rather important. I think maths is very important, but so is dance. Children dance all the time, if they're allowed to. We all do. We all have bodies, don't we? Did I miss a meeting? I mean, I think … Truthfully, what happens is, as children grow up, we start to educate them progressively from the waist up, and then we focus on their heads and slightly to one side.

If you were to visit education as an alien and say, "What's it for, public education?" I think you'd have to conclude, if you look at the output – who really succeeds by this? Who does everything they should? Who gets all the brownie points? Who are the winners? – I think you'd have to conclude the whole purpose of public education throughout the world is to produce university professors. Isn't it? They're the people who come out at the top, and I sued to be one, so there.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I like university professors, but we shouldn't hold them up as the high watermark of all human achievement. They're just a form of life; another form of life. But they're rather curious, and I say this out of affection for them. There's something curious about professors, in my experience; not all of them, but typically. They live in their heads. They live up there and slightly to one side. They're disembodied in a kind of literal way. They look upon their body as a form of transport for their heads, don't they? It's a way of getting their head to meetings.

Sir Ken Robinson:
If you want real evidence of out-of-body experiences, by the way, get yourself along to a residential conference senior academics and pop into the discotheque on the final night. There you will see it – grown men and women writhing uncontrollably, off the beat, waiting to end, so they can go home and write a paper about it.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Now, our education system is predicated on the idea of academic ability. and there's a reason. The whole system was invented … Round the world, there were no public systems of education, really, before the 19th century. They all came into being to meet the needs of industrialism.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Their hierarchies originated on two ideas. Number one, the most useful subjects for work are at the top. You were probably steered benignly away from things at school, when you were a kid, things you liked, on the grounds you would never get a job doing that. Is that right? Don't do music. You're not gonna be a musician. Don't do art. You won't be an artist. Benign advice, now, profoundly mistaken. The whole world is engulfed in a revolution.

Sir Ken Robinson:
The second is academic ability, which has really come to dominate our view of intelligence, because the universities designed the system in their image. If you think of it, the whole system of public education around the world is a protracted process of university entrance. The consequence is that many highly talented, brilliant, creative people think they're not, because the thing they were good at, at school, wasn't valued or was actually stigmatized.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I think we can't afford to go on that way. In the next 30 years, according to UNESCO, more people worldwide will be graduating through education than since the beginning of history; more people. It's the combination of all the things we've talked about, technology and its transformation effect on work, and demography, and the huge explosion in population. Suddenly, degrees aren't worth anything. Isn't that true?

Sir Ken Robinson:
When I was a student, if you had a degree, you had a job. If you didn't have a job, it's because you didn't want one. I didn't want one, frankly, so … Now, kids with degrees are often heading home to carry on playing video games, because you need an M.A., where the previous job required a B.A., and now you need a Ph.D. for the other. It's a process of academic inflation, and it indicates the whole structure of education is shifting beneath our feet.

Sir Ken Robinson:
We need to radically rethink our view of intelligence. We know three things about intelligence. One, it's diverse. We think about the world in all the ways that we experience it. We think visually; we think in sound; We think in aesthetically; we think in abstract terms; we think in movement.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Secondly, intelligence is dynamic. If you look at the interactions of a human brain, as we heard yesterday from a number of presentations, intelligence is wonderfully interactive. The brain isn't divided into compartments. In fact, creativity, which I define as the process of having original ideas that have value more often than not comes about through the interaction of different disciplinary ways of seeing things.

Sir Ken Robinson:
The brain is … By the way, there's a shaft of nerves that joins the two halves of the brain called the corpus callosum, it's thicker in women. Following on from Helen, yesterday, I think this is probably why women are better at multitasking, because you are, aren't you? There's a raft of research, but I know it from my personal life.

Sir Ken Robinson:
If my wife is cooking a meal at home, which is not often, thankfully … She's good at some things. If she's cooking, she is dealing with people on the phone, she's talking to the kids, she's painting the ceiling, she's doing open-heart surgery over here. If I'm cooking, the door is shut, the kids are out, the phone's on the hook. If she comes in, I get annoyed. I say, "Terri, please, I'm trying to fry an egg in here! Give me a break!"

Sir Ken Robinson:
Actually, do you know that old philosophical thing – if a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, did it happen? You know that old chestnut? I saw a great T-shirt, really, recently, which said, "If a man speaks his mind in a forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?"

Sir Ken Robinson:
The third thing about intelligence is it's distinct. I'm doing a new book at the moment called "Epiphany," which is based on a series of interviews with people about how they discovered their talent. I'm fascinated by how people got to be there. It's really prompted by a conversation I had with a wonderful woman who most people have never heard of. She called Gillian Lynne. Have you heard of her? Some have. She's a choreographer, and everybody knows her work. She did Cats, and Phantom of the Opera. She's wonderful.

Sir Ken Robinson:
I used to be on the board of the Royal Ballet in England, as you can see. Anyway, Gillian and I had lunch one day. I said, "How'd you get to be a dancer?" She said it was interesting; when she was at school, she was really hopeless. The school, in the '30s, wrote her parents and said, "We think Gillian has a learning disorder." She couldn't concentrate. She was fidgeting. I think, now, they'd say she had ADHD, wouldn't you? But this was the 1930s, and ADHD hadn't been invented at this point, so it wasn't an available condition. You know, people went to where they could have that.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Anyway, she went to see this specialist. This oak-paneled room, and she was there with her mother. She was led and sat on this chair at the end. She sat on her hands for 20 minutes, while this man talked to mother about all the problems Gillian was having at school. At the end of it, because she was disturbing people, and her homework was always late, and so on, a little kid of eight, in the end, the doctor went and sat next to Gillian, and said, "Gillian, I've listened to all these things that your mother's told me. I need to speak to her privately." He said, "Wait here, we'll be back. We won't be very long."

Sir Ken Robinson:
And they went and left her, but as they went out the room, he turned on the radio that was sitting on his desk. When they got out the room, he said to her mother, "Just stand and watch her." The minute they left the room, she said she was on her feet, moving to the music. They watched for a few minutes, and he turned to her mother and he said, "Mrs. Lynne, Gillian isn't sick. She's a dancer. Take her to a dance school.".

Sir Ken Robinson:
I said, "What happened?" She said, "She did. I can't tell you, Sir, how wonderful it was. We walked in this room, and it was full of people like me, people who couldn't sit still; people who had to move to think." Who had to move to think … They did ballet, they did tap, they did jazz, they did modern, they did contemporary.

Sir Ken Robinson:
She was eventually auditioned for the Royal Ballet School. She became a soloist. She had a wonderful career at the Royal Ballet. She eventually graduated from the Royal Ballet School to found her own company, the Gillian Lynne Dance Company; met Andrew Lloyd Webber. She's been responsible for some of the most successful musical theatre productions in history. She's given pleasure to millions, and she's a multi-millionaire. Somebody else might have put her on medication and told her to calm down.

Sir Ken Robinson:
Now, I think … What I think it comes to is this – Al Gore spoke the other night about ecology and the revolution that was triggered by Rachel Carson. I believe our only hope for the future is to adopt a new conception of human ecology, one in which we start to reconstitute our conception of the richness of human capacity. Our education system has mined our minds in the way that we strip-mined the earth, for a particular commodity, and for the future, it won't serve us. We have to rethink the fundamental principles on which we are educating our children.

Sir Ken Robinson:
There was a wonderful quote by Jonas Salk, who said, "If you were to … If all the insects were to disappear from the earth, within 50 years, all life on earth would end. If all human beings disappeared from the earth, within 50 years, all forms of life would flourish." He's right. What TED celebrates is the gift of the human imagination. We have to be careful now that we use this gift wisely and that we avert some of the scenarios that we've talked about.

Sir Ken Robinson:
The only way we'll do it is by seeing our creative capacities for the richness they are and seeing our children for the hope that they are. Our task is to educate their whole being, so they can face this future. By the way, we may not see this future, but they will, and our job is to help them make something of it. Thank you very much.

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: The Greatest Speech Ever

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Charlie Chaplin:
I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible – Jew, Gentile, Black man, White. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another. In this world, there's room for everyone, and a good earth is rich and can provide for everyone.

Charlie Chaplin:
The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent, and all will be lost.

Charlie Chaplin:
The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men; cries out for universal brotherhood, for the unity of us all. Even now, my voice is reaching millions throughout the world; millions of despairing men, women, and children; victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people.

Charlie Chaplin:
For those who can hear me, I say – do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed, the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress, the hate of men will pass, and dictators die. The power they took from the people will return to the people, and so long as men die, liberty will never perish.

Charlie Chaplin:
Soldiers, don't give yourselves to brutes – men who despise you, enslave you, who regiment your lives; tell you what to do, what to think, or what to feel; who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder! Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men – machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate. Only the unloved hate – the unloved and the unnatural.

Charlie Chaplin:
Soldiers, don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the 17th chapter St. Luke it is written the kingdom of God is within man. Not one man, nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people, have the power – the power to create machines, the power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful; to make this life a wonderful adventure.

Charlie Chaplin:
And in the name of democracy, let us use that power! Let us all unite! Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work; that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie. They do not fulfill that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people!

Charlie Chaplin:
Now let us fight to fulfill that promise. Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate, and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of a reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness. Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!

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Popular Transcripts FULL TRANSCRIPT: Joe Rogan Experience #1309 – Naval Ravikant

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FULL TRANSCRIPT: Joe Rogan Experience #1309 – Naval Ravikant | Convert video-to-text with Sonix

Joe Rogan:
Two, one, boom. All right, we're live. Thank you very much for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. I've been absorbing your information and listening to you talk for quite a while now. So, it's great to actually meet you.

Naval Ravikant:
Thanks for having me.

Joe Rogan:
My pleasure. My pleasure. You are one of the rare guys that is — you're a big investor. You're deep in the tech world, but yet you seem to have a very balanced perspective in terms of how to live life, as opposed to not just be entirely focused on success and financial success, and tech investing, but rather how to live your life in a happy way. That's not balance.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. I think the reason why people like hearing me is because it's like if you go to a circus and you see a bear, right? That's kind of interesting but not that much. If you see a unicycle, that's interesting. But you see a bear on a unicycle, that's really interesting, right? So, when you combine things you're not supposed to combine —

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
— people get interested. It's like Bruce Lee, right? Striking thoughts, philosophy, plus martial arts. And I think it's because at some level, all humans are broad. We're all multivariate, but we get summarized in pithy ways in our lives. And at some deep level, we know that's not true, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Every human basically is capable of every experience and every thought. You're a UFC, comedian, commentator, podcaster, but you're also more than that. You're also Father, lover, thinker, et cetera. So, I like the model of life that the ancients had, the Greeks, the Romans, right? Where you would start out and when you're, young you're just like going to school, then you're going to war, then you're running a business, then you're supposed to serve in the Senate or the government, then you become a philosopher, there's sort of this arc to life where you try your hand at everything. And as one of my friends says, "Specialization is for insects." So, everyone should just be able to do everything. And so, I don't believe in this model anymore of trying to focus your life down on one thing. You've got one life, just do everything you're going to do.

Joe Rogan:
I couldn't agree more. And I think that sometimes people find certain success in whatever the endeavor is and then they think that that is their niche, and they stick with it, and they never change, and they did it almost out of fear.

Naval Ravikant:
But it's hard because there is a — the analogy around mountain climbing. It's like if you find a mountain and you start climbing and you spend your whole life climbing it, and you get, say, 2/3 of the way, and then you see the peak is like way up there, but you're 2/3 of the way up. You still really high up, but now to go the rest of the way, you're going to have to go back down to the bottom and look for another path. Nobody wants to do that. People don't want to start over.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And it's the nature of later in life that you just don't have the time. So it's very painful to go back down and look for a new path, but that may be the best thing to do. And that's why when you look at the greatest artists and creators, they have this ability to start over that nobody else does. Like Elon will be called an idiot and start over, doing something brand new that he supposedly is not qualified for. Or when Madonna or Paul Simon or U2 come out the new album, their existing fans usually hate it, because they've adopted a completely new style that they've learned somewhere else.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And a lot of times they'll just miss completely. So you have to be willing to be a fool and kind of have that beginner's mind and go back to the beginning to start over. If not doing that, you're just getting older.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if it's willing to be a fool. It's just, to me, that the most exciting thing is to try to get better at something, to learn things. I mean, it's really exciting when you just have incremental progress in something that you're completely new to.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, I live for the aha moment, that moment when you connect two things together that you hadn't connected together before and it fits nicely and solidly and it kind of helps form a steel framework of understanding in your mind that you can then hang other ideas off of. That's what I live for.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It's like, curiosity fulfilled. It's what little children do too. You know, my little son is always asking why, why, why, why, why. And I always try and answer him. And half the times I realized actually I don't really understand why, I just have a memorized answer for you, but that's not really understanding.

Joe Rogan:
You know those are weird conversations, right? When you're talking to kids and you say, "Look, the reality is, I don't know a lot of things."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. I just memorize a lot of things. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And there's certain things that you just can't know.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, you realize that you have answers for a few things that you've thought through then you sort of have cover ups, like trapdoors, like don't go here. This is just a cover up. I don't really know the answer to —

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
— what the meaning of life is or how we got here.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And then you've got a whole bunch of memorized stuff because a lot of your — a lot of intelligence these days just the external brain pack of civilization. I know it's out there. I know the answers are out there, and I have to look them up and I've memorized some of them. And I kind of understand how money works and the Federal Reserve prints it and what this government thing is, but not really.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So.

Joe Rogan:
Not good enough to teach it in university.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. I think people do that with almost everything in life these days, in terms of like have like a one page, a one sheet, like a brief summary of what the explanation for what this very complex subject might be.

Naval Ravikant:
Tl;dr, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Don't give me the lecture, give me the book. Don't give me the book, give me the blog post.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Don't give me the blog post, give me the tweet. Don't give me the tweet — I just — I already know.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. I got really fascinated by the way you read, because I thought there was something wrong with me by doing that. But you don't really just read a book to completion, you read and then you pick something else up and you just kind of go based on your whims, whatever you're interested in.

Naval Ravikant:
I was raised by my — I was raised by a single mom in New York, and she used the local library as a daycare center, because it was a very tough neighborhood. And so she would basically say, "When you get back from school, go straight to a library and don't come out until I pick you up late at night." So I used to basically live in the library, and I read everything; I read every magazine, I read every pictograph, I read every book, I read every map. I just went up stuff to read. I just read everything. So I got over this idea of that reading a large number of books or reading a book to completion as a vanity metric. Because really, when people are putting up photos on Twitter, Instagram, and look at my pile of books that I'm reading, it's a show off thing. It's a similar thing, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. Sure.

Naval Ravikant:
And the reality is, I would rather read the best 100 books over and over again until I absorbed them, rather than read all the books.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Because your brain has finite information. Finite space. You get enough advice, it all cancels to zero. There's a lot of nonsense in books out there too. So I don't read anymore to complete books, I read to satisfy my genuine intellectual curiosity. And it can be anything; it could be nonsense, it could be history, could be fiction, it could be science, it could be sci-fi. These days it's mostly sci-fi philosophy science because that's just what I'm interested in, but I will read for understanding. So, a really good book, I will flip through. I won't actually read it consecutive in order and I won't even [inaudible 0:07:05] when I finish it. I'm looking for ideas, things that I don't understand. And when I find something really interesting, I'll reflect on it. I'll research it. And then when I'm bored of it, I'll drop it or I'll flip to another book. Thanks to electronic books I've got 50, 70 books open at any time on my Kindle or iBooks and I'm just bouncing around between them. It's also a little bit of a defense mechanism to how in modern society we get too much information too quickly, and so our attention spans are very low. So you get Twitter, you get Instagram, you get Facebook, you just used to being bombarded with information. So you can take that too. You can view that as a negative and be like, "I have no attention span," or you could view that as a positive, "I multitask really well and I can dig really fast. I can — if I find a thread that's interesting, I can follow through five social networks through the Web, through the libraries, through the books, and I can really get to the bottom of this thing very quickly. It's like the Library of Alexandria that I can research at my disposal." So I no longer track books read or even care about books read. It's about understanding concepts.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. You brought up two awesome points. First of all, the social media aspect of books and basically anything. It's like, it's such a weird way to display your life because, you know, you're displaying the best aspects of your life and some sort of a glass case, you know, just, it's an unrealistic version of your life that you cultivate and you curate.

Naval Ravikant:
And I'm as guilty of that as anybody.

Joe Rogan:
Everybody's guilty of it. I'm guilty of it too.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
I mean, I pose with my dog every time I run.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. We're always signaling, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It's like, rather than really looking at yourself, you're looking at how other people look at you. It's like this one remove mental image. And it's kind of a disease because social media is making celebrities of all of us, and celebrity is the most miserable people in the world, right? Because they're this strong self image that gets built up, it gets built up by compliments. Every time somebody pays you or me a compliment and we're like, "Oh, well, thank you." Right? Then that builds up an image of who we are. And then one idiot comes along, one out of ten, one out of 100, and they can easily tear it down. Because it doesn't take many insults to cancel out a lot of compliments. And now you're carrying around this big weighty self image, and it's just very easy to be attacked. And because you're famous or you're well known people want to attack you. So, being a celebrity is no good. It's actually a problem. Like, one of my tweets is — these are all reminders to myself, is, "You want to be rich and anonymous, not poor and famous."

Joe Rogan:
There's benefits to it.

Naval Ravikant:
Of course. Of course.

Joe Rogan:
But —

Naval Ravikant:
We wouldn't do it.

Joe Rogan:
It has unusual problems that you don't get trained for, and you really will not understand unless you experience it. You know, it goes having this conversation with my wife. We're talking about people that just come up to you and they don't care what you're doing. They don't care if I'm with my daughter, if I'm holding her, if I'm feeding her, if we're, you know, we're in the middle of an intense conversation. She's crying. She could be crying. And some bro will come over and just immediately have to take a picture, doesn't care, his needs supersede the daughter. And my wife is saying that before she knew me she used to think that that's just part of the price of being famous, that people like you. That's just part of the price being famous. And now when it interrupts her life, and, you know, it interrupts the children interrupts friends and, you know, she — now she's like, "This is annoying. Like this is not healthy. This is not a smart way to interact with people." And that people have this weird challenge, this weird thing that if you become famous, there's this weird challenge where people just want to come to you. Especially today. Because if they get a photo of you, then that boost their social media profile. Like, "Hey I'm sitting here with [inaudible 0:10:52]. Look at this [inaudible 0:10:54].

Naval Ravikant:
Anonymity is a privilege. On the other hand it's self-inflicted.

Joe Rogan:
Yes. Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
I mean, we brought it on ourselves.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. I don't think we knew what it was though.

Naval Ravikant:
We did. But we carry on, so.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It tells us we are getting something out of it, so.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
You know, there are times when some someone approach me in public and I'm a little resentful. And there are other times I just like actually, I'm really grateful that, you know, I worked for this. I got this.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
This is the payoff, just embrace it, smile, grin and bear it.

Joe Rogan:
But you have a different sort of celebrity too, right? You're a hero amongst investors and amongst — I mean, you've just been part of —

Naval Ravikant:
I'm a hero among young male geeks. Which is —

Joe Rogan:
Those are some of my favorite people.

Naval Ravikant:
Right. But that's not the kind of celebrity I think most people set out to get.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Especially most guys.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You want the cute females.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, you want chicks.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Yeah, I look at my brief little YouTube clips that have a tiny little podcast going now, and it's like 95% male.

Joe Rogan:
Sure. Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Maybe the —

Joe Rogan:
This is very highly —

Naval Ravikant:
18 to 35.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. What do we — What does the numbers? Yeah. It's in the 90s.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
You do that one very small podcast where you just have small with three or four minute clips.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. So what it was, I did a tweet storm called: How to Get Rich without Getting Lucky. And it got pretty popular on Twitter. And it's really about wealth creation. I just used a click bait-y title. And it's trying to basically layout timeless principles of wealth creation that if you absorb them, you become the kind of person who can create wealth, create business, make money. And my theory behind that is like there are three things everybody wants. There's actually more than three, but let's start with three. The three basics. Everybody wants to be wealthy, everybody wants to be happy and everybody wants to be fit. And I know there's a lot of virtue sitting that goes on, like we don't want money and, you know, I don't care about being happy, and happiness is for stupid people. But let's face it, like you want to be rich and happy and healthy.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
That's the trifecta. Now of course you also want to internally calm state of mind, you want a loving household. So there are other things that come into it. But those three, I think they can actually be taught, right? And a fitness, I'm not going to teach. There a lot of people who you've had on here including yourself who know a heck of a lot more about fitness and health than I do. But I was born poor and miserable and I'm now pretty well off and I'm very happy. And I worked at those, and so I've learned a few things. There are some principles. And so I try to lay them out, but in a timeless manner where you can kind of figure it out yourself. Because at the end of the day, I can't really teach anything, I can only inspire you and maybe give you a few hooks, so you can remember things when they happen, or put a name to them. So this podcast actually ended up explaining this tweet storm. So there's a tweet storm with like 36, 38 tweets, got very famous, got translated in dozens of languages. And these were principles that I came up with for myself when I was really young, around 13, 14. And I've been carrying them in my head for 30 years and I'd been sort of living them. And over time I just realized, like, sadly, or fortunately, the thing that I got really good at was looking at businesses and figuring out the point of maximum leverage to actually create wealth and capture some of that. And do it in very long term kind of way, not the, you know, banker crash the economy.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Get build up kind of way. But, you know, build businesses and help people and provide value kind of way. Especially when applied to modern technology and leverage in this age of infinite leverage that we live in. So the podcast is just explaining each tweet. So these a little three, four, five minute snippets. I don't like to say the same thing twice. I don't like to explain in detail. I just — I feel like, if you have something original and interesting to say, you should say it. Otherwise it's probably been said better. So that podcast tries to be information dense. It tries to be very concise, it tries to be high impact, it tries to be timeless, and it has all the information. I think you need the principle that if you absorbed these, and you work hard over 10 years, you'll get what you want. So I've got the one on wealth creation, I'm going to attempt to do one on — happiness is a big word but — you know, happiness and inner peace and calm and all that. Because what you want is you don't want to be the guy who succeeds in life while being high strung, high stress, and unhappy and leaving a trail of emotional wreckage with you and your loved ones.

Joe Rogan:
Which is more common than not.

Naval Ravikant:
Because you got to focus.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And it's very hard to be great at everything. You want to be the guy or the gal who gets there calmly, you know, quietly, without struggle. You want to be the person who's the — when there's a crisis going on, you want to be the calmest, coolest cucumber in the room who still also figures out the correct answer.

Joe Rogan:
If you can be. You were — One of the things you were saying is that you feel like happiness is something that you can learn, and then you can teach yourself to be happy, even just by adopting the mindset that you are a happy person and proclaiming that to your friends. And so you've sort of developed a social contract. I'm a happy person. And I have to live up to that.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. I've got hundreds of techniques. But the mo-

Joe Rogan:
How did you develop that one?

Naval Ravikant:
Well, there's just a — There's social consistency, right? Humans have a need to be highly consistent with their past pronouncements. So the way I started my first tech company was I was in a — working inside a larger organization, and I told everybody that I was going to start a company. I was like, "I hate this place. I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna be a successful entrepreneur." Six months passed, nine months pass, then people started, "You're still here? I thought you were gonna go start a company. Are you lying?"

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
That was the implication. So we kind of know this, right? Social contracts are very powerful. Like if you want to give up drinking, right? And you're not serious about it, you'll say, "I'm gonna cut back, and then I have only one drink a night, I'm gonna only drink on weekends." You tell yourself. But if you're serious, you announce it on Facebook. You'll tell your friends, you'll tell your wife, you'll say, "I'm done drinking. I'm throwing everything out of the house. You'll never see me drink again." When you say that you know you're serious. So I think a lot of these are choices that we make. And happiness is just one of those choices. And this is unpopular to say because there are people who are actually depressed, you know, chemically or what have you. And there are people who don't believe that it's possible because then it creates a responsibility on them. It says, "Oh now, if I'm — you're saying if I'm not happy, that's my fault." I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that, just like fitness can be a choice, health can be a choice, nutrition can be a choice, working hard and making money can be a choice, happiness is also a choice. If you're so smart, how come you aren't happy? How come you haven't figured that out? That's my challenge to all the people who think they're so smart and so capable. If you're so smart and capable, why can't you change this?

Joe Rogan:
There are a bunch of people though that actually take pleasure in being miserable. There's something about the pursuit of excellence and of success that supersedes all other pursuits, that in their eyes, it is the peak, the pinnacle, the most important thing.

Naval Ravikant:
It's not a tradeoff. I would argue that I — Now, when I say happy, happy is one of those words that means a bazillion different things.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
It's like love, right? What does that mean?

Joe Rogan:
Right. I love cheese.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. I find it a little bit more tightly, right? So let's go back to desire, right? This is old, old Buddhist wisdom. I'm not saying anything original. But desire, to me, is a contract that you make with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want. Okay? And I keep that in front of minds. So when I'm unhappy about something, I look for what is the underlying desire that I have that's not being fulfilled. It's okay to have desires. You're a biological creature, and you put on this earth, you have to do something, you have to have desires, you have a mission. But don't have too many. Don't pick them up unconsciously. Don't pick them up randomly. Don't have thousands of them. My coffee's too cold, doesn't taste quite right. I'm not sitting perfectly. Oh, I wish it was warmer. You know. My dog, you know, pooped in the lawn, I don't like that. Whatever it is. Pick your one overwhelming desire. It's okay to suffer over that one, but on all the others, do you want to let them go so you can be calm and peaceful and relaxed? And then you'll perform a better job. Most people, when you're unhappy, like a depressed person, it's not that they have very clear calm mind. They're too busy in their mind. Their sense of self is too strong. They're sitting indoors all the time. Their minds working, working, working. They're thinking too much. Well, if you want to be a high performance athlete, how good of an athlete are you gonna be if you're always having epileptic seizures? If you're always like twitching and running around and like jumping, and your limbs or flailing out of control? The same way if you want to be effective in business, you need a clear, calm, cool, collected mind. Warren Buffett plays bridge all day long and goes for walks in the sun. He doesn't sit around like constantly loading his brain with non-stop information and getting worked up about every little thing. We live in an age of infinite leverage. What I mean by that is that your actions can be multiplied a thousand fold, either by broadcasting at a podcast or by investing capital or by having people work for you or by writing code. So because of that, the impacts of good decision making are much higher than they used to be. Because now you can influence thousands or millions of people through your decisions or your code. So, a clear mind leads to better judgment, leads to a better outcome. So a happy, calm, peaceful person, will make better decisions and have better outcomes. So if you want to operate at peak performance, you have to learn how to tame your mind just like you've learned how to tame your body.

Joe Rogan:
I love what you're saying. Warren Buffett might not be the best example because he drinks like I think six Coca-Cola is a day and he eats mostly McDonald's.

Naval Ravikant:
And he's still alive somehow.

Joe Rogan:
It's amazing.

Naval Ravikant:
It shows you that low stress is more important than —

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, but he looks like shit. Like, how old is he? I mean, he's a fairly old man, right?

Naval Ravikant:
But Charlie Munger is I think in his 90s, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
He's made it really far.

Joe Rogan:
I wonder what Warren's doing, you know. I mean, just, he's got to know that's bad for him.

Naval Ravikant:
It's terrible.

Joe Rogan:
But he doesn't care.

Naval Ravikant:
He doesn't care. I think he's just low stress.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Stress is the big cure.

Joe Rogan:
Right. So he's just enjoys that Coca-Cola.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And that's a problem. Maybe there is a tradeoff, right? It may be him enjoying that junk food and that coke, just that the pleasing of the mind is maybe better than him just eating wheat-grass shots and —

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, and be miserable.

Joe Rogan:
— canned salads and just being — Yeah, just super worked up about everything.

Naval Ravikant:
It's like if you need your glass of red wine to de-stress and calm down, that's probably better than you flying off the rails.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Right. And I think that that's applicable not just in business but in probably any pursuit. And I like what you're saying about allow that one thing to be your obsession, but everything else just, you know, learn how to let things go. Pick your battles.

Naval Ravikant:
And we'd like to think that — we'd like to view the world as linear, which is, I'm gonna put in eight hours of work, I'm gonna get back eight hours of output, right? Doesn't work that way. Guy running the corner grocery store is working just as hard or harder than you and me. How much output is he getting? What you do, who you do it with. How you do it, way more important than how hard you work, right? Outputs are non-linear based on the quality of the work that you put in. The right way to work is like a lion. You don't — you and I are not like cows. We're not meant to graze all day, right? We're meant to hunt like lions. We're closer to carnivores in our omnivorous development than we are to herbivores.

Joe Rogan:
Don't tell vegans that.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, sorry. Look, I wish all that stuff worked. I don't want to eat meat. Future generations will look back at us as worse than slavers, you know, because the holocaust were committing with the animals, but they'll have artificial meat to taste and are healthier, it is better than the real thing, so.

Joe Rogan:
Allegedly.

Naval Ravikant:
Allegedly. But, so, as a modern knowledge worker athlete, as an intellectual athlete, you want to function like an athlete. Which means you train hard, then you sprint, then you rest, then you reassessed. You get a feedback loop, then you train some more, then you sprint again, then you rest, then you reassess. This idea that you're going to have linear output just by cranking every day at the same amount of time sitting — that's that's machines, you know. Machines should be working 9:00 to 5:00. Humans are not meant to work 9:00 to 5:00.

Joe Rogan:
No, I agree wholeheartedly. But that's — for people that are working for someone, there's not really that option.

Naval Ravikant:
So that's unfortunately the the rub, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
That's kind of where my tweet storm starts. Which is first of all, the first thing if you're gonna make money is that you're not gonna get rich renting out your time. Even lawyers and doctors who are charging 3- 4- 500 dollars an hour, they're not getting rich because their lifestyle is slowly ramping up —

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
— along with their income, and they're not saving enough. They just don't have that bit of retire. So the first thing you have to do is you have to own a piece of a business. You need to have equity, either as an owner, an investor, shareholder or a brand that you're building that accrues to you to gain your financial freedom.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. And I was really fascinated by another thing that you were bringing up about working for yourself that you feel in the future whether it's 50 or 100 years from now, virtually everyone is going to be working for themselves. And believe the way you put it is that the information age is gonna reverse the industrial age.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. If you go back to hunter gatherer times, how we evolved, we basically worked for ourselves. We communicated and cooperated within tribes, but each hunter, each gatherer, stood on their own, and then combined their resources of the family unit. But there was no boss, hierarchy, hierarchy, hierarchy.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Where you're like the third middle manager down. In the farming age, we became a little bit more hierarchical as we had to run farms, but even those were still mostly family farms. It's industrial work with factories that sort of created this model of thousands of people working together on one thing and having bosses at schedules and times to show up. The reality is, if you have to go — I don't care how rich you are. I don't care whether you're like a top Wall Street banker. If you have to go — If somebody has to tell you — Somebody can tell you when to be at work and what to wear and how to behave, you're not a free person.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You're not actually rich. So we're in this model now where we think it's all about employment and jobs. And intrinsic in that is that I have to work for somebody else. But the information age is breaking that down. So Ronald Coase is an economist who has this coast here and a very famous theorem, but he basically just talks about why is a company the size that it is. Why is a company one person, instead of ten people, instead of one hundred, instead of a thousand. And it has to do with the internal transaction costs which is the external transaction costs. Let's say I want to do something — let's say I'm building a house, and I need someone to come in and provide the lumber. I'm a developer, right? Do I want that to be part of my company? Or do I want that to be an external provider? A lot of it just depends on how hard it is to do that transaction with someone externally versus internally. If it's too hard to keep doing the contract every time externally, I'll bring that in-house. If it's easy to do externally and it's a one-off kind of thing, I'd rather keep it out of the house. Well, information technology is making it easier and easier to do these transactions externally. It's becoming much easier to communicate with people. Gig economy, I can send you small amounts of money, I can hire you through an app, I can rate you afterwards. So we're seeing an atomization of the firm. We're seeing the optimal size of the firms shrinking. It's most obvious in Silicon Valley. Tons and tons of startups constantly coming up and shaving off little pieces of businesses from large companies and turning them into huge markets. So what look like the small little vacation rental market on Craigslist is now suddenly blown up into Airbnb. It's just one example.

Joe Rogan:
That's great example.

Naval Ravikant:
But what I think we're going to see is whether it's 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now, high quality work will be available. We're not talking about I'm driving an Uber, we're talking about super high quality work will be available in a gig fashion, where you'll wake up in the morning, your phone will buzz and you'll have five different jobs from people who have worked within the past or have been referred to you. It's kind of how Hollywood already works a little bit with how they organize for a project, you decide whether to take the project or not. The contract is right there on the spot. You get paid a certain amount. You get rated every day or every week. You get the money delivered. And then when you're done working, you turn it off and you go to Tahiti or wherever you want to spend the next three months. And I think the smart people have already started figuring out that the internet enables this. And they're starting to work more and more remotely on their own schedule, on their own time, on their own place, with their own friends, in their own way. And that's actually how we are the most productive. So the information revolution by making easier to communicate, connect and cooperate, is allowing us to go back to working for ourselves. And that is my ultimate dream. Even when I run a company and I have employees, I always tell those people, "Hey, I'm gonna help you start your company when you're ready." Because I think that's the highest calling. Maybe not everybody will get there, but it would be fine if we were — even working at 10 person company or 20 person company is way better than working in 1,000 person company or 10,000 person company. So this idea that we're all factory, like cogs in a machine, who are specialized and have to do things by rote memorization or instruction is gonna go away and we're gonna go back to being small groups of creative bands of individuals, setting out to do missions. And when those missions are done, we collect our money, we get rated, and then we rest and reassess until we're ready for the next sprint.

Joe Rogan:
Has there ever been a study done on happiness as it regards the size of companies?

Naval Ravikant:
Not that I'm aware, but to me it's obvious. It's just obvious. The smaller, the company the happy you're gonna be, the more human your relations are.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
The less you have rules to operate under the more flexible, the more creative. The more you'll be treated like a human just because you're able to do multiple things.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. This brings me to what is a subject that keeps getting brought up nowadays is universal basic income with the oncoming —

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
— apocalypse of automation. This is how it's being portrayed by Andrew Yang who's running for president. I sat down and talked to them about it, it's very compelling. And he's a very smart guy. And he's an entrepreneur himself. And when he starts talking about automation and how it's going to just eliminate massive amounts of jobs and leave people stranded, what — do you — I know you're a guy who thinks about the future.

Naval Ravikant:
I'm gonna brought the unpopular point of view on this.

Joe Rogan:
Okay.

Naval Ravikant:
I think it's a non-solution to a non-problem. And I mean that in the sense that automation has been happening since the dawn of time. When electricity came along, that put a lot of people out of work.

Joe Rogan:
Did it?

Naval Ravikant:
Right? A lot of people carrying buckets of water and, you know, lighting lamps and all those kinds of things.

Joe Rogan:
And this was the concern with factories as well.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Abs- Everything. Literally every single thing that comes along.

Joe Rogan:
Even the printing press, right?

Naval Ravikant:
Absolutely. And what it does is it frees people up for new creative work. The question is not, is automation gonna eliminate jobs? There is no finite number of jobs.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
We're not like sitting around dividing up the same jobs that were around since the Stone Age. So obviously new jobs are being created and they're usually better jobs, more creative jobs. So the question is, how quickly is this transition going to happen? And what kinds of jobs will be eliminated? What kinds of jobs will be created? It's impossible looking forward to predict what kinds of jobs will be created. If I told you ten years ago that podcast was gonna be a job or that, you know, playing video games gonna be a job, or commentating on video games is gonna be a job, you would have laughed me out of the room.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Those are nonsense jobs. But yet here we are. So society will always create new jobs, civilization creates new jobs, but it's impossible to predict what those jobs are. So the question is, how quickly is that transition happening? Well, the reality is even though everybody keeps talking about this automation apocalypse, where did record low unemployment? Explain that. Where's the transition?

Joe Rogan:
Donald Trump! That's it.

Naval Ravikant:
All I'm saying is, it's — I don't see it in the numbers. I don't see it actually happening.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
The question is, how quickly can you retrain people? So it's an education problem. The problem with UBI — there's a couple of problems with UBI. One is, you're creating a straight — you creating a slippery slide transfer straight into socialism, right? The moment people can start voting themselves money, combine with a democracy.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
It's just a matter of time before the bottom 51 votes themselves. Everything the top 40 line.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And it just — By the slippery slope, fallacy is not a farce. I know people like saying that, but they haven't thought it through. But the moment you start having a direct transfer mechanism like that in a democracy, you're basically doing it with capitalism which is the engine of economic growth. You're also forcing the entrepreneurs out or telling them not to come here. The estimate I saw for 15 K, your basic income for everybody would be three quarters of current GDP. And of course GDP would shrink in response as all the entrepreneurs fled. So you would essentially bankrupt the country. Another issue with UBI is that, people who are down on their luck, they're not looking for handouts. It's not just about money. It's also about status. It's about meaning. And the moment I start giving money to you and put you on the dole, I've lowered your status, I've made you a second class citizen. So I have to give you meaning. And meaning comes through education and capability. You have to teach a man to fish, not to basically throw your rotting leftover carcasses at him and say, "Here, eat the scraps." So it doesn't solve the meaning problem. And lastly it's nonsense to hand 15 K out to everybody, you want to means test people. There's no reason to give it to you and me. So you end up back towards the welfare system where you do have to figure out who needs it and who doesn't. So I think the better route is that we actually establish a set of basic substance services that you have to have and we provide those in abundance to technology based automation. So get basic housing, get basic food, get basic transportation, get high speed internet access, get a phone in your pocket. Those are the kinds of things you want to give people. And finally, in terms of the rate of automation, I think we can educate people very quickly. One of the myths that we have today is that adults can't be reeducated. We view education as this thing where you go to school, you come out and you're out of college and you're done. No more education. Well, that's wrong. You have all these great online boot camps and coding schools coming up there are ones that even pay you to go there now. You can educate people and mass, and you can educate them into creative professions. People who are talking about AI automating programming — I've never really written serious code. Coding is thinking, it's automatic structure of thinking. And AI, they can program as well or better than humans is an AI that just took over the world. That's end game. That's the end of the human species. And I can give you arguments why I don't think that's coming either. People who are thinking — and I know it take the opposite side from some very famous people in this debate, but we're nowhere near close to General A.I. Not in our lifetimes. You don't have to worry about it.

Joe Rogan:
Even in our lifetimes? Really?

Naval Ravikant:
It's so overblown. It's another — it's a combination of Cassandra complex. You know, it's fun to talk about the end of the world combined with a God complex, like people who have lost religion so they're looking for meaning in some kind of end of history.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
The reason why I don't think AI is coming anytime soon is because a lot of the advances in so-called AI today are what we call narrow AI They're really at pattern recognition machine learning to figure out, like what is that object on the screen or how do you find the signal and all of that noise. There is nothing approaching what we call creative thinking. To actually model general intelligence, you run into all kinds of problems. First, we don't know how the brain works at all. Number two, we've never even modeled a paramecium or an amoeba, let alone a human brain. Number three, there's this assumption that all of the computation is going at the cellular level, at the neuron level, whereas nature is very parsimonious. It uses everything at its disposal. There's a lot of machinery inside the cell that is doing calculations that is intelligent that isn't accounted for. And the best estimates are would take 50 years of Moore's Law before we can simulate what's going on inside a cell near perfectly, and probably 100 years before we can build a brain that can simulate inside the cells. So putting it at saying that I'm just gonna model neuron is on or off, and then use that to build the human brain is overly simplistic. Furthermore, I would posit there's no such thing as general intelligence. Every intelligence is contextual within the context of the environment that it senses. It evolves in the environment around it. So I think a lot of people who are pedaling general AI the burden of proof is on them. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to indicate we're approaching general AI. Instead, we're solving deterministic closed set finite problems using large amounts of data, but it's not sexy to talk about that.

Joe Rogan:
If you're talking about mirroring the actual abilities of cells or are you talking about recreating the actual mechanism? Like, what is going on inside cells and biological organisms.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, we just don't know how intelligence works.

Joe Rogan:
Right. We don't know.

Naval Ravikant:
We have no idea. So most of the AI approaches basically say we're gonna try and model how the brain works. But they model it at the neuron level which is saying, this neuron's on, that neuron's off.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
They're combining their signal. But I'm saying, the neuron is a cell inside the cell. There's all this machinery going on that's operating the neuron that is also part of the intelligence apparatus. You can't just ignore that an abstract that out. You have to model it down to the inside the cell level.

Joe Rogan:
It's also part of the biological organism itself.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly.

Joe Rogan:
And it has all these needs that, you know, the biological organism has to have food and rest.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly.

Joe Rogan:
There's a balance going on. But when you eliminate all that, when there is none of that, and it's just calculations, and we get to a point where it's just this thing that we've created whether we call a computer, but it doesn't have to be a moving thing even a thing that you've created that stores virtually all the information that's available in the world, stores all of the patterns, of all the thinking, of all the great people that have ever lived, all the writers, all the people that have ever published anything, all the people that have ever spoken any words. Stores all of their points, all of their counterpoints, all their contradictions, applies logic and reason and some sort of sense of the future, and starts improving upon these patterns, and then starts acting on its own, based on the information that's been provided with.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, first you would have to actually simulate a structure of the human brain that can hold all that information. You're basically done with tens of thousands of brains worth of information.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
We can't even build one brain in the next decade or two or three.

Joe Rogan:
Well, in terms of an actual physical brain, yes, but what about something that recreates the abilities of a brain?

Naval Ravikant:
Like I said, nature is parsimonious. So we've got this three pound [inaudible 0:37:39] object that can hold all this data. Nature has been very efficient in evolving kind of how we get there. I just don't think computers are anywhere close to that, like they can hold that amount of data with that complexity, with like the holographic structure of the brain where it can recall in many, many different ways. And then I don't think you can evolve a creature to be intelligent outside of the boundaries of feedback in a real medium. Like, if you evolved — if you raised a human being at concrete cell with no input from the outside, they wouldn't have any feedback from the real world.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
They wouldn't evolve properly. So I think just dumping information into into a thing isn't enough. It has to have an environment to operate in, to get feedback from. It needs to have context.

Joe Rogan:
But isn't that biological? I mean, if you have just the — all the information that people have accumulated and the lessons that people have learned, and you program that into the computer. Like, if we can take a computer that can beat someone at chess, the real question was, well, can we make it some sort of an artificial intelligence could beat someone at Go? Which is far more complex a chess. They figured out how to do that too. And that was a giant shock, right?

Naval Ravikant:
These are still man made very closed bounded games. They're not on the road to the unbounded game of life. They are completely artificial.

Joe Rogan:
But this — didn't Go, didn't that give you like a little bit of a pause?

Naval Ravikant:
A little bit. Go is not — Go or League of Legends or Fortnite, they're not completely deterministic.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
But they're still very artificial or very bounded games. Being good at Go doesn't mean that you can then suddenly figure out how to write great poetry.

Joe Rogan:
Right. The creativity for sure is something that's afraid.

Naval Ravikant:
A creativity is the last frontier. So I do believe that automation, over a long enough period of time, will replace every non-creative job or every non-creative work. But that's great news. That means that all of our basic needs are taken care of. And what remains for us is to be creative, which is really what every human wants.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
I mean, what are you doing right now?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
This is the creative job.

Joe Rogan:
Sure. That brings us back to the idea of meaning and universal basic income. I think the idea of giving someone $15,000 a year doesn't necessarily cause whatever one would worry about is people being on the dole. You would have a bunch of listless people out there with no meaning in life. But the idea is that $15,000 a year, and I'm not necessarily sure I agree with this, I'm not even endorsing this. But that $15,000 a year would just provide you with the necessities to get by in life. It would give you food. It would give you shelter.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, it's not gonna stop at 15, because the moment people are like — I mean, 15 like —

Joe Rogan:
People gonna demand more.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Brad Sanders would be on the —

Naval Ravikant:
15, 16, 17, 18, 19 —

Joe Rogan:
I want $45,000 a year. These companies are too big. Yeah, that could happen.

Naval Ravikant:
It doesn't stop. It just goes all the way to bankruptcy.

Joe Rogan:
The concern is the slide to socialism.

Naval Ravikant:
It's obvious.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
I mean, heck if I was on — if I was not working and I was getting my 15, I would happily vote for the guy who would give me 20 or 25. It's just common sense. We'd be stupid not to.

Joe Rogan:
What do you say to the people that don't believe that there is such a thing of ethical as ethical or compassionate capitalism? There's many people today that are espousing Marxism and they're espousing some sort of a socialist society where they believe that capitalism is screwed people over and eliminated the middle class and —

Naval Ravikant:
There absolute problems with capitalism. I think monopolies are a problem. I think that crony capitalism is a problem, but the government, you know, kind of gets in bed with them and sort of forces things. I think the bankers have really, you know, raped society and the rest of us are suffering for it.

Joe Rogan:
Literally.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. They've essentially taken huge risks where they privatize the gains and the socialize of losses. So when it fails, they basically get bailed out and bankrupt everybody else. So capitalism has gotten a really bad name. Let's talk about its free exchange, free markets. Free markets and free exchange are intrinsic to humans, from when the first person started a fire and somebody came along with a deer and said, "Hey, if I cook my dear on your fire, I'll share some of it with you," right? So specialization of labor, we trade, that's built into the human species. Basic math comes from accounting, keeping track of debts and credits and so on. We need to be able to engage in free trade. The correct criticism of capitalism is when it does not provide equal opportunity. And so we should always strive to provide equal opportunity. But people confuse that with equal outcome. When you have equal outcome, that can only be enforced through violence. Because different people — free people make different choices. And when they make different choices, they have different outcomes. If you don't let them suffer the consequences of bad choices or reap the rewards from good choices, then you are forcibly redistributing through violence. It's interesting that there isn't — that there are no socialist — working socialist examples that exist without violence. You basically need someone to show up with a gun and say, "Okay, you're not allowed to do that. You hand this over to that person." So one of the reasons why I do this podcast is because I believe everybody can be wealthy. Everybody. It's not a zero sum game. It is a positive sum game. You create something brand new, you exchange it with me for something brand new I've created, there's higher utility for both of us. The sum of the value created is positive. It's not like status where it's like you're higher up, I'm lower down; you're, president, I must be vice president; you're a plus one, I'm a minus one. It has to cancel zero. We should be all for playing positive some ethical games. The problem is because of these looters who have ruined capitalism's name, but then you get socialists coming in and saying, "Burn the whole system down.".

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You burn the whole system down, we end up like Venezuela or the former Soviet Union. You don't want to be a failed socialist states with emaciated teens hunting cats in the streets to eat, right? That's literally what happens in some of these places. So I think it is very important not to destroy the engine of progress that brought us here.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, the idea that socialism just hasn't worked yet that it needs to — we just need to do it right. If we do it right we can — Have you ever [inaudible 0:43:49]?

Naval Ravikant:
Right. 100 million debt and —

Joe Rogan:
Yes. Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Let's keep trying.

Joe Rogan:
All over the world. Yeah. And in every single time —

Naval Ravikant:
Absolutely.

Joe Rogan:
— it's been implemented. Have you ever had a conversation with someone who is a socialist? Were you —

Naval Ravikant:
Oh, many times. Some of my better friends are socialist.

Joe Rogan:
Really?

Naval Ravikant:
We really get into it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And what does that — I mean, does anyone have a compelling perspective at all?

Naval Ravikant:
I think really socialism comes from the heart, right? We all want to be socialist. Capitalism comes from the head because there are always cheaters in any system.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And there's incentives in a system. So when you're young, if you're not a socialist, you have no heart. When you're older, if you're not a capitalist you have no head, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You haven't thought it through. So I understand where it comes from. I always liked Nassim Taleb [inaudible 0:44:24] on this, where he said, "With my family, I'm a communist. With my close friends, I'm a socialist. You know. At my state level politics, I'm a Democrat. At, you know, higher levels, I'm a Republican. And at the federal level, I'm a libertarian." Right? So basically the larger the group of people you have mass together who have different interests, the less trust there is, the more cheating there is, the better the incentives have to be aligned, the better the system has to work, the more you go towards capitalism. The smaller the group you're in; you're in a kibbutz, you're in your Commie and you're in your house, you're in your tribe, by all means, be a socialist. With my aunts, with my brother, with my cousins, with my uncles, with my mom with my family.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
I'm a socialist. That's the right way to live a loving, happy, integrated life.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
But when you're dealing with strangers, I mean, you want to be a real socialist, great. Open all your doors and windows tomorrow.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Please everybody, come take what you want. See how that works out.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. This idea of income inequality, that always strikes me as a very — it's a deceptive term. Income inequality.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, let's flip it around. It comes from outcome inequality.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And the outcome inequality is there because you made different choices. Now again, going back, if it was because you didn't have the same opportunities, that's a problem.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
So society should always try to give people equal opportunities. So for example instead of basic income, what if we had a retraining program built into our basic social fabric which said that every four years or every six years or whatever it is, maybe every ten, you can take one year out and we'll pay for you to go retrain completely. And you can go into any profession you like that has some earning power and output, hopefully a creative long term profession, and you can re-educate yourself. That would be much better for society on all levels than basically just saying, "No, you're gonna be the dole for the rest of your life."

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, you just — you'd have to lead that horse to water and then make him drink.

Naval Ravikant:
It requires people —

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
— to put in some effort.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Right? You know, we can't all just sit around. It's just not [inaudible 0:46:24].

Joe Rogan:
Well, that's my perspective on income inequality. There's always effort in equality. And thought in equality.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly.

Joe Rogan:
There's just some people that are obsessed. And if those people become successful, it doesn't mean they stole from you. It just means that they put in the amount of energy and effort that it's required to reach where they're at.

Naval Ravikant:
And there's a lot of virtue signalling that goes on now where people say, "Well, it's because you're privileged."

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, what's all that?

Naval Ravikant:
You know what the greatest privilege is? You're alive. 85% of humanity is dead.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
So, how privileged are you? Then you're living in the first world, then you're — you know, you have four limbs, et cetera. So you can take that argument all the way. It's kind of a nonsense discussion.

Joe Rogan:
What's a very weird progressive argument? And as it pertains to race, is always a weird one, right? Because white privilege to me, although you could look at what they're saying on paper like, yes, yeah, I'm sure there's more black people that are harassed by the police. I'm sure there is more black people who are treated suspiciously by shop owners and the like.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
But the problem isn't the people aren't treated poorly. The problem is the people who treat the people poorly. The problem is racism.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
The problem is not people that didn't ask to be born white or whatever they are, and they don't get harassed. So this idea of white privilege or male privilege or whatever it is, that's not the problem. You're just looking at someone who's not a victim of this particular problem that you're highlighting, but you're not looking at the perpetrators of the problem. You're making people perpetrators by simply existing and having less melanin in their skin or having their ancestors come from [inaudible 0:47:59] different location.

Naval Ravikant:
[Inaudible 0:47:59] by another —

Joe Rogan:
It's a sneaky way of being racist.

Naval Ravikant:
It's a sneaky — Yeah. Yeah. And then they say you can't be racist. It's not racist because you're white.

Joe Rogan:
That's right. That is — that's hilarious. If you can't be racist against white people. That one —

Naval Ravikant:
Right. Right.

Joe Rogan:
I found —

Naval Ravikant:
That's a variation of the whole still while I hit your argument. You know, stop struggling while I'm hitting you.

Joe Rogan:
But it's just so silly. You've just completely changed what racism mean.

Naval Ravikant:
But what's hilarious is mostly the people who are yelling racist are not the minorities.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
What I look in my Twitter or my social media or on my news, it's white on white violence.

Joe Rogan:
Virtue signal.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. It's white on white violence.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
What's mostly going on is it's elitist whites, blue state whites, college educated whites, beating up on high school educated whites, blue collar — It's a white collar versus blue collar war that's going on. And the rest of us are just kind of watching like, "It's kind of interesting."

Joe Rogan:
Well, it's also a side effect of the ability to broadcast, right? Like everyone with a Twitter handle has the ability to broadcast. Everyone with a Facebook page has the ability to pontificate and have these long rambling — these huge statements that people put out when you read them. It's like, "How much time did you put in this? What the fu- Do you put that much time in your kids?".

Naval Ravikant:
Or your job or —

Joe Rogan:
Or your job or your life or your future or planning for your — you know what? How much do you work out a day?

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
I mean, you just these — some — I've read some people's Facebook posts, I'm like, "This is a preposterous amount of effort that you put into saying virtually nothing.".

Naval Ravikant:
Let's say humans are being creative.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Let's see an AI do that.

Joe Rogan:
Well, that's true. It is creative. It's creative in a very odd way, right? Because it's creative and that they're trying to elicit a response from people and they're trying to raise their social value or raise their position on the social totem pole.

Naval Ravikant:
It's signaling. And it's easy signaling because the kind of thing that everybody has to agree with you.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Because nobody wants to be seen as a horrible person.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And it's very hard to make that nuanced arguments against that and this is just kind of go along.

Joe Rogan:
Right. But it's also — it's — some of it is so cliche that it seems like I know one guy who poses as a woman on Twitter but he does it —

Naval Ravikant:
Just [inaudible 0:51:02].

Joe Rogan:
— obviously.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
What is this, the name Tatyana?

Naval Ravikant:
McGrath?

Joe Rogan:
McGrath. Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Yes.

Joe Rogan:
Hilarious.

Naval Ravikant:
Used to be [inaudible 0:50:09].

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, is that the same guy?

Naval Ravikant:
I think so. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
That's hilarious. I did not — They killed his account.

Naval Ravikant:
I think it's the same one. I'm not 100% sure

Joe Rogan:
They killed his account for pretending to be trans-racial.

Naval Ravikant:
That's right.

Joe Rogan:
They didn't —

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. He basically says all the crazy stuff —

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
— that people aren't allowed to say. But he says the craziest version.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And kind of just shows how it's okay. It's like, I saw a tweet from recently just said — or her, that it's not okay to be white.

Joe Rogan:
Yes. Yes. And a ton people agree. But it's so close to what they say.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
It's so close that it's like the most artful form of subtle parody.

Naval Ravikant:
Because if you replace in half of these things, if you replace the word white with black or Asian.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, my God.

Naval Ravikant:
Watch the lynch mob they send upon you.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a strange time in that respect that these are so much noise.

Naval Ravikant:
There's a famous old saying that's, "If you want to see who rules over you, see who you're not allowed to criticize."

Joe Rogan:
Excellent. Yeah. That is a — That's so true, right? Yeah. That's so true. I wonder where this is going. I really do. I wonder. Because this is — It seems like this new found ability to broadcast that we have with, whether you have a YouTube page, whether you have Twitter or whatever you're doing, this new found ability to spread whatever you're trying to say to so many people with very little understanding on the most part from what's known —

Naval Ravikant:
I think it's actually a great thing overall.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah I do as well.

Naval Ravikant:
Because now it means that any human can broadcast to any other human on the planet at any time. So for example if, you know, a totalitarian dictator were to come to power and someone was beating up, you know, had fascist beating up an old woman, like, that would get broadcast out instantly. There would be an instant outrage hue and cry rallying. So in that sense, it helps bring attention to the plight of anybody. But right now, we're going through the phase where we have this newfound power to assemble mobs. And people don't know how to deal with that. So it becomes very easy to setup a mob and have it attack somebody.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Take all the context out. Like, even this conversation I'm sure people will take out snippets, put them on social media, and try and get somebody outraged.

Joe Rogan:
Of course.

Naval Ravikant:
And so you have to learn how — First of all, society has to get over this idea of outrage. Like, to me, like outraged people are the s- — people who get easily outraged are the stupidest people on social media. Those are the people I block instantly. It's just kind of very low level thinking, right? These are the foot soldiers in a mob. Eventually society just has to get over it. We have to understand that these are all snippets being taken out of context. These are doctored video clips. These are just someone who's trying to get outraged over something. Eventually they'll also be anti mob tactics. Like, for example, if I go to someone's Twitter feed, and all it is is full of political ranting, raving, conspiracy theories, do I want to work with this person? Do I want to associate with this person? Do I want to be friends with this person? Their mind is just cluttered with junk. Now, I don't necessarily blame them. I think that the human brain is not designed to absorb all of the worlds breaking news 24/7 emergencies injected straight into your skull with click bait headline news. If you pay attention to that stuff, even if you're well-meaning, even if you're sound of mind and body, it will eventually drive you insane. This goes back to Clockwork Orange where he's, you know, has his eyes opened. He's forced to watch the news. But I think that's what's happening right now, because these are addictive, right? Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, these are weaponized. You have social statisticians and scientists and researchers and people in lab coats, literally. Best minds of our generation figuring out how to addict you to the news.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And if you fall for it, if you get addicted, your brain will get destroyed. And I think this is the modern struggle, right? The modern struggle. So the ancient struggle used to be the tribal struggle. You had your tribe of friends and family, you had your religion, you had your country, you had your loyalty, you had your nationality. At least you had meaning and support. But now, you would struggle against other tribes. Modern life was so free. Everything's become atomized. We stand alone. You'll live in your apartment alone. You live in your house alone. Your parents don't live nearby. Your friends don't live nearby. You don't have any tribal meaning. You don't believe in religion anymore. You don't believe in country anymore. It's fine. You got a lot of freedoms. Fantastic. But, now, when they come to attack you, you're alone and you can't resist. So how do they attack you? It's all well-meaning. I don't fought capitalism, I love capitalism. But, look at how it happened. Social media, they've massaged all the mechanisms to addict you like a skinner pigeon or a rat who's just gonna click, click, click, click, click. Can't put the phone down. The food, they've taken sugar and they've weaponized it. They've put it into all these different forms and varieties that you can't resist eating. Drugs, right? They've taken pharmaceuticals, and plants, and they've synthesized them. They've grown them in such a way that you can't — you get addicted, you can't put them down. Porn, right? If you're a young male, you wonder on the internet, it'll like sapped away your libido and you're not going out in real life society anymore because you've got this incredibly stimulating stuff coming at you. Video games, another way to addict people. So, you have this — you have entire large factories of people that are working to addict you to these things and you stand alone. So the modern struggle isn't individuals learning how to resist these things in the first place. Drawing your own boundaries. And there's no one there to help you.

Joe Rogan:
That's terrifying. I mean, it is.

Naval Ravikant:
Surprised if you don't.

Joe Rogan:
It's a new road that needs to be navigated by young people that are — there's no map, there's no guidebook on how to handle this.

Naval Ravikant:
Our generation is the transition generation. I think our kids will know how to handle it better, because they'll grow up with it. I hope. I hope.

Joe Rogan:
I hope too. You're seeing some ridiculous behavior from people today. That's so common. I mean, I don't know if you've been paying attention to this, but there was a guy who — he made a video. It turns out it wasn't even him that made the video at least that's not what he said. But it was a video where he sort of doctored Nancy Pelosi talking, and made it look like she was drunk. And then a bunch of people retweeted it, like, "Oh, my God. Look, she's drunk." And so one of the online publications, some website, tracked him down and dox him. And turned out he's just a day laborer who is an African-American Trump fan, and thought it would be funny to do that. And it turns out that he didn't even — at least according to him, he actually just put it up on his Facebook page. What's even more disturbing is Facebook gave up his information to this website.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
For what? Because he made something funny that made people seem drunk? There's a million of those about me. I mean, you could find them. I mean —

Naval Ravikant:
Well, I think Facebook and Twitter and a bunch of these other social media platforms are committing slow motion suicide through these kinds of activities.

Joe Rogan:
That was a stunning one though.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
That they would give up this guy who is a laborer because he made a parody video or he made someone look foolish with editing.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, you now have, basically, the media views it as their job to go after individuals they don't like.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, I use media with air quotes in that regard.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
I don't think this is something that the New York Times would have done.

Naval Ravikant:
No, no.

Joe Rogan:
Anything is possible, but —

Naval Ravikant:
But the media is getting more and more desperate, right? Because what happened was, before the internet, you could have two local newspapers in every town and you could have two local news stations, you know, TV stations in every town. And then CNN came along and started commodities in the news 24/7 broadcasts. And then the internet came along, that was the final nail in the coffin. Because what the internet did was, it said, actually if there's a fact that's news, you can distribute that immediately. It can go on Twitter, it can go on Facebook, it gets reprinted on Google News a thousand times. You know, you go on Google News, you're like, okay, watch a piece of news, which source and 3000 other articles. Too many, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
So news has become commoditized. So the entire news media has shifted into pedaling opinions and entertainment.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And so, now they've become a variation between like cheerleaders, shock troops enforcers, you know, talking heads. So these are now tribal. Well, these are not propaganda machines signaling for their tribes. It's a right wing one, that's left wing one, right? There's the Alt right, there's a Control left, and the two of them were just fighting it out using their various media organs and memes. So basically when you see one of these news organizations doxing an individual, that's like a tank running over a soldier. Right? That's what's going on. It's just a war. And so, there's no such thing anymore as a neutral media commentator. The illusion of objectivity that journalism had is lost. There's no longer one guy like Walter Cronkite that everyone's gonna listened to.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It's now just shock troops fighting wars with each other.

Joe Rogan:
How does this play out? Have you thought about it?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, a little bit. So what the internet does — A lot of this is internet driven. What the internet does, is the internet creates one giant aggregator or two, for everything. One taxi dispatcher, one e-commerce store, one search engine, one, you know, one social media site for friends and family, one for business, et cetera. So the internet is this giant aggregator where it creates one big [inaudible 0:59:16] for everything, and it creates an atomized long tail of millions and millions of individuals. What it gets rid of is the medium sized ones in the middle. So, for example, you might have had like seven Hollywood studios, let's all give me Netflix. You had, you know, like 10 large e-commerce players — commerce players, from Walmart to Costco to, you know, Kmart and whatever. Not just gonna be Amazon. And a ton of small individual brands. So that's the world that we're headed towards; one [inaudible 0:59:48] and millions of individuals. So where it ends up long term is media will be a few gigantic outlets. You know, it could be the New York Times, it could be Facebook, a few like that, and there's gonna be just a really long tail of millions of independent people. So this idea of who's a journalist and who's not, you know, is assigned to journalists or not. Everyone's a journalist. That's the world that we're headed towards. I do think that extreme power, the most powerful people in the world today, and this is not well-known, but the most powerful people in the world today are the people who are writing the algorithms for Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. Because they're controlling the spread of information. They're literally rewriting people's brains. They're programming the culture. And they're doing it very subtly. Like Google, I believe, that, you know, one of their Execs got up in front of Congress, and the Congressman asked him, you know, "Do you manipulate search results?" He said, "No, we do not manipulate search results." "Really? That's your job. That is literally all Google does. Google has one job which is to manipulate search results to pull them out of the noise and rank them properly." And the precise algorithms of how they do that is very hidden, very complex, but influences the hearts and minds of everybody, including all the voters. Now, if Google, Facebook and Twitter had been smart about this, they would not have picked sides. They would have said, "We're publishers. Whatever goes through our pipes goes through the pipes. If it's illegal, we'll take it down, give us a court order. Otherwise we don't touch it." It's like the phone company. If I call you up.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
And I say something horrible to you on the phone, the phone company doesn't get in trouble. But the moment they started taking stuff down that wasn't illegal, because somebody scream, they basically lost their right to be viewed as a carrier. And now all of a sudden, they've taken on liability. So they're sliding down the slippery slope into ruin. Slope into ruin where the left wants them to take down the right, the right wants to take down the left, and now they have no more friends, they have no allies. Traditionally the libertarian leaning Republicans and Democrats would have stood up in principle for the common carriers, but now they won't. So, my guess is as soon as Congress — this is — this day is coming, if not already here. It might even have been here today actually, because you saw something related in the news. The day is coming when the politicians realize that these social media platforms are picking the next president, the next Congressman. They are literally picking. And they have the power to pick, so they will be controlled by the government.

Joe Rogan:
In what way? How do you think they're gonna be controlled? You think they're gonna have to adhere to strict principles of freedom of speech?

Naval Ravikant:
No, no. Unfortunately —

Joe Rogan:
First Amendment?

Naval Ravikant:
Unfortunately it's headed the opposite direction, right?

Joe Rogan:
The opposite —

Naval Ravikant:
I wish it was freedom of speech. Much more likely they're gonna be — in the short to medium term, they're gonna be hauled in for hearings. They're gonna be pressured massively, do this, don't do that.

Joe Rogan:
My concern about that is the hearings that I saw with Zuckerberg. Those people were completely incompetent. They don't seem to understand.

Naval Ravikant:
They don't. They don't. But they're just applying pressure. They're just trying to scare him so he'll do what they want. And —

Joe Rogan:
What do they want him to do?

Naval Ravikant:
They want him to basically suppress the other side. So if you're a right wing, you want to suppress the left wing. If you're left wing, you want to suppress the right wing. And if you just see where these companies are headquartered in Silicon Valley, all the sensors, and that's really what they are. There are sensors working inside these companies. They're just called — they're called by different names, obviously, right? It's doublespeak. You call the Department of Defense when it's the Department of War. So in this case, the Department of Safety and Trust when really it's a Department of Censorship. The sensors are inside Silicon Valley, so it's going to reflect Silicon Valley politics.

Joe Rogan:
Which is extremely progressive left wing.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And if you're not that, you really have no place.

Naval Ravikant:
That's right.

Joe Rogan:
I mean, try being a conservative and open conservative at Google. Good luck.

Naval Ravikant:
No, you get lynched.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I don't think that there was ever a thing like that, that was so influential and so politically ideologically one sided.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, there's a little saying on the internet, I think it's called Conquest Law, that any organization that's not explicitly left or right wing eventually becomes left wing. And I don't know why that's true but it does seem to me to be true.

Joe Rogan:
Well. it's a fascinating battle that's going on right now. I mean, it really is. And conservatives. And as far as social media is concerned, they're just getting chopped off at the hams, left and right.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. What'll eventually happen is that whenever you suppress speech, the organism metastasizes, then it has to start turning towards other means. If you're unlucky, it goes towards violence. If you're lucky, they'll find other outlets. I think what will happen is we will start creating decentralized media that's not owned by any single entity. That can't be suppressed or shut down. That will then start spreading these various things.

Joe Rogan:
And that will take the place of Twitter or Facebook or what have you.

Naval Ravikant:
That's right. But it's gonna take 10 years, 20 years.

Joe Rogan:
At least.

Naval Ravikant:
It's not overnight.

Joe Rogan:
Well, you know, Twitter took 10 more years to get to the point where it's at this mess right now.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
But it was so interesting to have Jack Dorsey and to talk to him about where it's going, where he thinks he's gotten his own principles, which he believes that it's a fundamental right, and he believes that freedom of speech is something that we all should have, and that these platforms should essentially be like utilities, like the electric company.

Naval Ravikant:
Jack is correct. And he has the right vision. It's just he's in an organization where the other individuals in the organization feel differently.

Joe Rogan:
Very differently. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So the organization itself can get hijacked.

Joe Rogan:
And his timeline for changing things, is like, it's decades.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
I mean, I don't — I shouldn't say decades, but I mean, I was like, when do you think that something —

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
There is a part — There was one idea of having an uncensored Twitter. Like, one Twitter that's the wild west. Like, you can have regular Twitter or you could try Wild West Twitter.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, that already exists and that were called Gab.

Joe Rogan:
Yes. But Gap isn't named Wild West Twitter. They — when people dox people, they remove things like that.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. I mean, I think there's certainly lines around violence and —

Joe Rogan:
Threats.

Naval Ravikant:
— illegality that you don't want to cross, but —

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
— Gab is closer to free speech platform, but it's still not decentralized. I can still get shut down.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
I can still get taken out.

Joe Rogan:
Which also suppressed heavily.

Naval Ravikant:
Yes. And the people on there are right now extremely right wing. So it's not a pleasant place for someone like me to hang out [inaudible 1:06:00].

Joe Rogan:
With all the people that have been kicked off or something else, so —

Naval Ravikant:
That's right. That's right.

Joe Rogan:
— try going over there and being moderate. Try going over there.

Naval Ravikant:
No.

Joe Rogan:
There's no room for you.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Unfortunately, because I don't identify as any party or any creed —

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
— you know, it doesn't work for me.

Joe Rogan:
Is that a problem in Silicon Valley when you don't identify as anything? Do you get pressure?

Naval Ravikant:
Totally. It used to be okay, it's not okay anymore.

Joe Rogan:
When was it okay?

Naval Ravikant:
Like, 10 years ago, I would say it was okay.

Joe Rogan:
And then you started seeing a shift?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. And now you have to pick sides. Otherwise you're automatically the enemy.

Joe Rogan:
Really?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Struggle sessions and all that.

Joe Rogan:
God. Struggle sessions.

Naval Ravikant:
I'm exaggerating for effect, but definitely has that oppressive feeling to it.

Joe Rogan:
Right. And you also have to be politically outspoken.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
It can't be something that you just stay neutral about.

Naval Ravikant:
Right. It's like when Tim Ferriss, I think at some point, put out a tweet about how you can't just say anything anymore and, you know, people are being suppressed. And a whole bunch of people who loved him from Silicon Valley piled in and said, "What is it that you can't say? What are you afraid to say? You can say whatever you want to him. Go ahead. What are you afraid of?" They're like baiting him.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. "What was he trying to say? Well, we have to put him in that box. He was someone who is thinking about saying something he shouldn't have said."

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly.

Joe Rogan:
"Now we know."

Naval Ravikant:
One great tweet I saw was, you know, "The left won the culture wars and other just driving around shooting the survivors."

Joe Rogan:
Wow. That's hilarious. Yeah, I wonder. I wonder who has won the culture war. Certainly a battle that's been won in terms of like controlled social media. Controlled social media is absolutely laughable.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, this is unfortunate for conservatives, but technology is a force that also pushes left. So if you look all throughout human history, like the left it essentially grows and grows and grows, right? Why is that? Why is it inexorably that — as some commentators have said, Leviathan slouches left, right? Leviathan is the government, why does it slouch left? And I think a lot of that has been because of technology. Technology has made it so that it makes more — it's like industrial revolution technology. We all band together. We're wards of the state, right? Contraception is a technology that kind of helps lean left where it takes away from the family unit. Abortion is a technology, right? It wasn't possible thousands of years ago. So technology actually empowers the individual. The individual means that you have the breakdown of family structure and religion and all that. And I'm not necessarily opposed to that. But it does mean that there is a leftward shift to it. Now we are getting a small set of technologies that actually can take you more rightward. Encryption is an example, because encryption makes it easier to have privacy. It makes it easier to have money that is outside of the state. Guns. 3D printing of guns is an example of a technology that is more of a rightward shift. But generally, technology leads the world left.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah it's also usually highly educated people that are involved in technology in the first place. And I think when you look at universities in particular, they tend to lean left in this country as well.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, universities — What happened to the university is very interesting. Universities first when, you know, became the arbiters of data and intellectualism and know what's right and wrong. So there's a time period when it was like, "Should we be doing that or not? Well, let's look at the University, what do they have to say? What are the smartest people, the professors, the think tanks have to say?" And the universities got this credibility from the hard sciences. So they got this from, you know, physics and math and computer science and chemistry, because these deliver real things; the Manhattan Project, the microprocessor, the space vehicles and so on, the electric car. So they gain this mantle of authority and legitimacy from the hard sciences. So then, come the social sciences kind of sneak in. Then you get economy — economics. And microeconomics is a real discipline, real science, real math behind it, logic, reason. And then you get macro economics which can be politicized a little bit more voodoo, and then you get social studies, and then you get gender studies, and then you get blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And so what happened is that because we took scientists to be the high priests of our new world, science itself has gotten corrupted. And the social sciences, and you can tell they're fake sciences because the word science tacked on at the end have come in and hijacked the universities and become the new think tanks. And so, essentially, what you see going on today in the universities is a war between the social sciences and the physical sciences. And the crossover point is biology, right? Where you can see like the whole gender is a social construct movement is attacking biology and evolutionary biology. Just like in the social sphere, they're coming after the comedians, right? But you can see the struggle going on in the universities. And I would say the physical sciences are essentially losing that war.

Joe Rogan:
What can be done? Or is it just something that has to play out? Is it — Do we have to realize the consequences of the foolishness?

Naval Ravikant:
Well, the good news is, the physical sciences have a reality on their side, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, but it's not even — in many ways, it's not respected.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. But at the end of the day, your aircraft still has to fly, you know, your microprocessor still has to compute. So, there's only so far they can take it. But I do see, for example in biology, a lot of biologists are facing this difficult thing where they have to say things that they know are not true to keep their job.

Joe Rogan:
Like what?

Naval Ravikant:
Well, you had Brett Weinstein on here.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Right? So, that's a clear example.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
So there's just, the crossover line of what is acceptable and what's not is entering into biology. And biology will probably suffer the most. Synthetic biology for example, will — you know, a lot of this will end up in China, because it won't be — you won't be able to map facts and reality and actions together, you won't be able to get grants, you won't be able to get the adulation of your peers. I don't know enough here's, so now I'm in shaky territory, but it's just my sense that that crossover battleground right now is an evolutionary biology. Economic's lost.

Joe Rogan:
Well, it's certainly in terms of gender and that sort of — that seems to be one of the major battlegrounds.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. And it's also gonna happen, for example, Blank Slate theory. You know, are we nature, are we nurture.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
It's kind of socially unacceptable to say that, you know, a lot of it is nature and not nurture or vice versa, depending on which side you're on.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Those kinds of discussions get corrupted.

Joe Rogan:
They do get corrupt. And it's really unfortunate because that's an unbelievably important thing to understand. Like, what makes a person a sociopath? What makes a person a super successful person, a winner?

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
What makes a person a drug addict? What are these factors?

Naval Ravikant:
You can't have a reasonable conversation about climate science anymore.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
It's not a science, it's all politicized.

Joe Rogan:
You can't even bring it up.

Naval Ravikant:
Everyone's got their minds made up already.

Joe Rogan:
Well, it's uncomfortable to me as people have their minds made up and they don't even have the data.

Naval Ravikant:
On most of these topics, people are talking past each other anyway.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
They're talking about different things. Like, when you get into, you know, when you get into gun control for example. Right? One side is talking about the right to bear arms in case a tyrannical ruler or King drastic over the country. The other side is talking about school shootings and, you know, protecting people in their homes, right? From crime. So they're just talking about two different things.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
And it's just not politically acceptable to even talk about the same thing. Or when it gets to immigration, the right is talking about — you know. The left is like bundling together illegal immigration and legal immigration into one thing.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Right? Whereas on the right, sometimes you've got racists hiding in there. So it doesn't help their cause, right? They're talking about two different things.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
If they were talking about the same thing, which is how many immigrants should we let into the country and, you know, what are the criteria for that. That would be a very different conversation than no immigrants or everybody comes in. And then also on the left, you know, you had this benefit that everybody who's currently coming in illegally is gonna vote for the left because of where they're coming from and their socioeconomic circumstances. To me, the test of any good system is, you build a system, hand it over to your enemies to run for the next decade. So for example, if you want a censorship on Twitter or Facebook, you should build that system, and then hand it over to the other side to run. So if you're a left winger who's promoting censorship, let somebody else running. Same with immigration. If you want immigration system, build the system, then hand it over to the other side to running. That's how you know it's a good system.

Joe Rogan:
There's no room for nuance when you're dealing with these political battlegrounds. When you're dealing with right versus left and one side has clearly established stance that you're supposed to take, like gun control is a great example of that, right? There's no room for, what about mental health? What about the fact that so many of these people are on psych medication?

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
Why is that not being asked?

Naval Ravikant:
We're running one of the greatest mental health experiments in history.

Joe Rogan:
The greatest, right?

Naval Ravikant:
When we're doping everybody up and SSRIs.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. And, you know, maybe if you give 30 million people SSRIs, maybe like 29.9 million are a lot happier. And then you have a fraction that commit suicide or detonate.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Right? You're basically trading the mean for the variance.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You have blowup risk. Yeah, there's no room for nuance, which is why I stay out of politics, largely.

Joe Rogan:
Do they drag you in though sometimes?

Naval Ravikant:
They always try.

Joe Rogan:
Well, even this conversation forces —

Naval Ravikant:
Even this conversation.

Joe Rogan:
— you get — to get dragged in.

Naval Ravikant:
Sure. But —

Joe Rogan:
I'm sure there's gonna be some people —

Naval Ravikant:
Here's the thing about politics. Because there — we have a first pass the post system. What that means is that whoever wins 51 percent of the vote in this country gets a lot of the power, right? It's not like proportional representation where the Greens have 10% and, you know, libertarians of 3% or whatever it is. Just like you're all Democrat in power, now all Republican. Because of that, to win, you have to pick one of these two sides. Right? You have to choose. You can't just basically say, "I'm gonna be, you know nuanced about it." You can't vote for a third party that's throwing away your vote, right? I have a friend who's trying to fix that, he's starting this thing called a good party, where like you kickstart your vote. So you combine all your votes, you hold them in reserve, and then when you have enough to win, then you vote that person in power. Right? So you don't throw your vote. But outside of those hacks, we're never gonna be a third party elected. So because of that, all of your beliefs have to neatly fit into the Democrat bundle or the Republican bundle. And so, when you get into that tribe, if you signal out of that bundle, you get attacked.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
So it's literally — it's making you into an unclear thinker. It's making you into a model thinker. If all of your beliefs line up into one political party, you're not a clear thinker. If all your beliefs are the same as your neighbors and your friends, you're not a clear thinker. You're literally just — your beliefs are socialized. They're taken from other people. So if you want to be a clear thinker, you cannot pay attention to politics. It will destroy your ability to think.

Joe Rogan:
Ugh. That would dread.

Naval Ravikant:
Most of modern life, all our diseases are diseases of abundance, not diseases of scarcity. Like old times, I may have starved. You know, old times if I got sugar, that was a wonderful thing. I should have eaten all the sugar to get my hands on. If I'd gotten a piece of news or gossip, that was interesting data that would have helped my life and move me forward. If I'd gotten some brief amount of entertainment, whether through video games or magazines or whatever that would've been good. Now, it's all disease of abundance. We are overexposed to everything. So, the way to survive in modern society is to be an ascetic. It is to retreat from society. There's too much society everywhere you go; society in your phone, society in your pocket, society in your ears. You're being socialized right now by listening to this podcast.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
We're socializing you. We're programming you. Everyone's trying to program everybody. The only solution is turn it off.

Joe Rogan:
The only solution is to turn it off and concentrate on your breathing.

Naval Ravikant:
Meditation. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Yes. I mean, that's huge.

Naval Ravikant:
It works. It's been a lifesaver for me.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, I do it. And I do it whenever I get like spare time. I was at the doctor's office this morning and I knew I was gonna be 20 minutes, so I just sat there with my eyes closed for 20 minutes and I melted.

Naval Ravikant:
You know, when I was growing up, there was this statement, I think it was Pascal, he said, you know, "All of man's problems arise because he cannot sit by himself in a room for 30 minutes alone." And it's very true. I always needed to be stimulated. And when the iPhone came along, bored and was dead.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
I would never this bored again. If I'm standing in line, I'm on my iPhone, and I thought it was great. And when I was a kid I used to try and overclock my brain like, "How many thoughts can I think at once?" The answer is only one, but I would try to like think multiple thoughts at once.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And I was proud of that. I was proud that my brain was always running, this engine was always moving. And it's a disease. It's actually the road to misery. And now that I'm older, I realize that you actually want to, again, rest your mind, you want to learn how to settle into your mind. Now, I look forward to solitary confinement. You'll leave me alone for a day. It'll be like the happiest day I've had in a while. And that is a superpower that I think everybody can attain.

Joe Rogan:
The superpower of learning to be alone and enjoying it.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. Well, I think it's critical. And I do think that these times where you just think about things, just be alone and think about things are so rare these days. And I think during those rare times is when you really get to understand what you actually believe or don't believe.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, it's funny. When I first started meditating, it was really hard, right? Because everybody — I think a lot of people who listen to this broadcast have heard of meditation that has a good reps. Everybody tries it, they struggle, they kind of give it up. It's one of those things that everybody says they do, but nobody actually does. Right? It's like not eating sugar, right? Everyone talks about how, "Yeah, I don't eat sugar."

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Then the dessert tray rolls around and everyone's going for the cookies.

Joe Rogan:
Yep.

Naval Ravikant:
Right?

Joe Rogan:
Yep.

Naval Ravikant:
So, it's become one of those things. And in fact it's now even become a signaling thing where it's like, "Oh, how much did you meditate?".

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
"I meditate this much."

Joe Rogan:
Yep.

Naval Ravikant:
You know, there are people now wearing headbands saying — with Tweety Bird that chirping there when they're in deep meditation. I don't know how they make it work, but they'd be like, "I've got a lot of chirps today. How many chirps did you get?" Right?

Joe Rogan:
Oh, God.

Naval Ravikant:
"Oh, your meditation technique is wrong, mine is right." But really, all it is is the art of doing nothing. Okay? And it's important because I think when we grow up, right? All this stuff happening to you in your life. And some of it you're processing, some of it you're absorbing, and some of it you should probably think a little bit more about and work through, but you don't, you don't have time. So it gets buried in you. It's all these preferences and judgments and unresolved situations and issues. And it's like your e-mail inbox. It's just piling up, e-mail after e-mail after e-mail that's not answered, going back 10, 20, 30, 40 years. And then when you sit down to meditate, those e-mails start coming back at you. "Hey, what about this issue? What about that issue? Have you solved this? Do you think about that? You have regrets there? You have issues there?" And that gets scary. People don't want to do that. Like, "It's not working. I can't clear my mind. I better get up and not do this." But really what's happening is it's self therapy. It's just that, instead of paying a therapist to sit there and listen to you, you're listening to yourself. And you just have to sit there as those e-mails go through one by one, you work through each of them until you get to the magical inbox zero. And there comes a day when you sit down, you realize the only things you're thinking about are the things that happened yesterday, because you've processed everything else. Not necessarily even resolved it, but at least listen to yourself, and that's when meditation starts. And I think it's a very powerful thing that everybody should experience and that's when you arrive upon the art of doing nothing.

Joe Rogan:
Well, I think it's even a problem that most people are getting their meditation from an app.

Naval Ravikant:
I will not use an app.

Joe Rogan:
It's sneaky. I mean, Sam Harris is a very good meditation, I'll [inaudible 1:21:22] to that. But you should be able to just do it. And many people can't.

Naval Ravikant:
It is literally the art of doing nothing.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
So, all you need to do for meditation is just sit down, close your eyes, comfortable position, whatever happens happens. If you think, you think; if you don't think, you don't think. Don't put effort into it, don't put effort against it, it's all you need.

Joe Rogan:
Do you concentrate on your breath?

Naval Ravikant:
Nothing.

Joe Rogan:
Or do you have a specific technique?

Naval Ravikant:
Nothing.

Joe Rogan:
Nothing?

Naval Ravikant:
Nothing. No. You just —

Joe Rogan:
You just sit.

Naval Ravikant:
You just sit.

Joe Rogan:
I think about my breath. That's all I do, I just —

Naval Ravikant:
You can do that.

Joe Rogan:
I try to only concentrate on breathing.

Naval Ravikant:
I used to do that, but at some level, all the concentration — Every meditation technique is leading you to the same thing which is just witnessing.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
And concentration is a technique to steal your mind enough that you can then drop the object of concentration. So you could also just try going straight to the end game. The problem with what I'm talking about, which is not focusing on your breath is you will have to listen to your mind for a long time. It's not gonna work unless you do at least an hour a day, and preferably at least 60 days before you've kind of worked through a lot of issues. So it'll be hell for a while, but when you come out the other side, it's great.

Joe Rogan:
You get rid of the chatter.

Naval Ravikant:
Or when the chatter comes, it's in the background, it's dimmer, it's smaller, you've heard it before, you see the patterns. It's more recent. It's something you need to resolve anyway. And you will get moments of actual silence.

Joe Rogan:
What is your — what's your ultimate state when you meditate? Like, is there a state where you've achieved, rarely, if ever, where you just — you're in bliss or you're in harmony or you're in enlightenment? Like, what —

Naval Ravikant:
It's kind of indescribable, because when you're really meditating, you're not there. When there's no thoughts, there's no experience through, there's nothing.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
There's just nothing. So it's it's hard to describe. But I would say that it's like a — you could definitely — every psychedelic state that people encounter using so-called plant medicines can be arrived at just through pure meditation. And I've definitely hit some of those states.

Joe Rogan:
You've hit some transcendent psychedelic states where you're —

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, I've had —

Joe Rogan:
— halucinating, the whole deal?

Naval Ravikant:
I've had trippy visuals, I've had the kind of lights and colors, I've had the so-called downloads, I've had the realizations, I've had the bliss I've had the light, I've had the colors, but —

Joe Rogan:
But not every time?

Naval Ravikant:
No, it's rarely. And in fact, I would say that's also like an experience that you can start craving which will then actually take you out of meditation, where you really — and I'm not enlightened or anything close to it, so not even in the ballpark. But my own experience and this is this personal experience, is the place where I end up the most, that is really the one that I want to be at, is peace. It's just peace.

Joe Rogan:
Peace. Happy.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, peace — To me, peace is happiness at rest, and happiness is kind of peace in motion. You can convert peace to happiness anytime you want, but peace is what you want most of the time.

Joe Rogan:
That's interesting. You can convert peace to happiness anytime you want.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. If you're a peaceful person, anything you do will be a happy activity. And by the way, being on social media, engaging in politics, will not bring your peace.

Joe Rogan:
There is nothing less peaceful.

Naval Ravikant:
Right. And the w-

Joe Rogan:
In today's day and age?

Naval Ravikant:
The way we think you get peace is by resolving all your external problems. But there is unlimited external problems. So the only way to actually get pieces on the inside by giving up this idea of problems.

Joe Rogan:
Who thinks you can get peace by resolving external problems other than politicians?

Naval Ravikant:
Everybody.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah?

Naval Ravikant:
That's what everybody struggling to do, right? Why are you trying to make money? To solve all your money problems. Why try to win at politics? Because then you'll be at peace because your people will have won..

Joe Rogan:
It's a daunting task to get your shit together.

Naval Ravikant:
It's easier to change yourself than to change the world.

Joe Rogan:
That's true.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And the best way to change the world is to change yourself.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly. It's — all these people who are shouting on social media, the best way is just to actually live the life that you want other people to live. Like, I went to New Zealand, and there's this guy that I met with, and — you know everyone's on social media shouting about environmentalism and conserve and sustain. And I go to this guy's house, and he was doing a very quietly, very gently, he was doing a two week long zero waste experiment, where he was throwing out nothing. So every package that he opened he would keep and he would like clean it up, so he would keep his Amazon boxes, he keep the little contain- even tea bag. If he opened the tea bag, he has to figure out how to compost the tea inside, how to make the tea itself useful, how to make the tea bag like a little storage item. So there was no trash. He was literally living with zero trash waste, and he was doing it. And it was really inspirational. Meeting people like him made me far more environmentally conscious than, you know, any amount of people yelling at me on social media ever will.

Joe Rogan:
How long did he do that for?

Naval Ravikant:
I think it was two weeks. It was hard.

Joe Rogan:
What the fuck are you gonna do with tea bags?

Naval Ravikant:
He had quite the collection.

Joe Rogan:
The tea bags.

Naval Ravikant:
He wasn't filling them with little things.

Joe Rogan:
It sounds like you're a crazy hoarder.

Naval Ravikant:
Yes.

Joe Rogan:
Like a hoarder person with stacks of tea bags in his house.

Naval Ravikant:
Very impressive guy.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah, that's a strange way to go about things. I appreciate it. I mean, look, it is entirely possible to somehow or another engineer all of our cups and all of our things and all about to be biodegradable.

Naval Ravikant:
You know, the struggle with the modern environmental movement is that they identify the correct problem which is finite earth spaceship. Earth is all we got, don't ruin it. But they don't have the solution. So what they say is no growth, no growth, no growth. The problem is you got 3 billion Indian and Chinese who aren't going to stay in poverty.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
They're gonna roll whether you like it or not. So you can yell at them, you can scream at them, you can yell at us and scream at us, but that's not gonna happen. So the only way out, unfortunately is, again, through technology, which is you have to build green technology. And I give Musk a lot of credit, you know, for being one of the few people who's out there trying to do that. So you build things that are biodegradable and good for you and healthier. And everybody wants to be healthier; Chinese want to be healthier, Indians want to be healthier. They want to be cleaner. If you say, "I can clean up your rivers, I can clean up your forests, I can have your children not get sick with cholera and diphtheria and typhoid, I can cure your diseases, I can help make your immune system stronger, I can give you clean drinking water." Like, that is what causes people to become environmentalists. Not shouting and screaming at them that they shouldn't grow and they should stop pumping things into the sky. You know, they have no concept of that. They're just trying to get out of poverty. So, I think the modern environmental movement identifies the correct problem, but then doesn't come up with the right set of solutions that are appealing to people. People are not going to give up economic growth. They're gonna have to get rich first.

Joe Rogan:
That's — Yeah, that's a very good point. But how do do you do both?

Naval Ravikant:
You lower the price of clean technologies massively. So you basically make clean technologies cost competitive —

Joe Rogan:
Through subsidy? Through —

Naval Ravikant:
— [inaudible 1:28:22] technologies. Innovation, ideally, you can subsidize in the short to medium term until the innovation curve is crossed. I mean, like, Tesla doesn't have any patents, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Or they freely give away their patents. That's the example of how you can do it. So, you know, someone — if you wanna get rid of plastics such straws, yeah, you can do it here and there, you can get San Francisco to ban plastic straws. But China's not gonna ban plastic straws. Not until you build a paper straw that is, you know, same cost, good durability. And then you educate the Chinese like, "Hey, this is petroleum. You know this plastic that you're doing is petroleum. This is bad for you. Here is the chemical composition. Here's the things that are going into the bloodstream." And they want healthy, happy kids also. So they're gonna have their kids use paper straws. Maybe straws aren't the best example, but you can — you know, this is true with fossil fuels for example. That's probably the best one. Or replacing a lot of plastics with glass and paper and so on.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah there's a new technology that was just — Rhonda Patrick [inaudible 1:29:29] in her Twitter today about, they're able to convert plastic waste into fuel. And that there's companies that are actively trying to do that now.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
So then, in that way, plastic waste will become valuable.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
It will become a commodity and it becomes something that people are resource.

Naval Ravikant:
Now, there are certain problems this doesn't solve; this doesn't solve carbon, this doesn't solve —

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
— deforestation, you know. So there, you kind of have to step in with other means. So for example, look at the Amazon, right? Everyone's complaining about the Amazon being deforested. Well, you're not the poor Brazilian farmer.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So you're sitting here in your comfortable chair, like social media hammering away at, you know, the evil Brazilians with deforesting the Amazon. But the Amazon has incredible resources. If we really care about it, we should turn it into an incredible tourist park and put your money where your mouth is, start doing eco-tourism in the Amazon, start paying for it. And then maybe take the future rights for all the pharmaceuticals that come out of all the incredible plants there and start selling those off, so that people — so that maybe give the pharmaceutical companies an incentive to preserve the biodiversity the Amazon, say, "Hey, if you buy this patch of the Amazon, you conservative, and you conserve it." Whatever plant medicines that come out of there that you can then license, you get the patent for 20 years or 30 years or whatever. So I think there are solutions where we as the first world, those who have money, can put our money where our mouth is and go and rescue these kinds of properties.

Joe Rogan:
That's a very interesting solution. But I could see immediate pushback from people that don't think the pharmaceutical companies should have the rights to this natural plant.

Naval Ravikant:
Okay. Or the government does it. And then the government gets the patents and the government will auction off the patents later or —

Joe Rogan:
That's even worse.

Naval Ravikant:
— or they'll license them —

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
— or whatever it is. Right?

Joe Rogan:
Well, that's — the often — like, just this. The often the problem is there is no really good solution. There's a bunch of solutions that also have drawbacks.

Naval Ravikant:
That's life.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Right?

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
That's the tradeoff, so.

Joe Rogan:
As being a human.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
It's very messy.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. It's a constrained environment. So obviously I skew more towards a private property capitalist type solutions, because even though they're not perfect, they have been proven to actually work. Right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Once something is your property, you take care of it.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
You're not going to crap all over your own house. But it should probably be temporary property, not permanent property. You see a lot of countries around the world now doing this no foreign ownership of land thing, for example, where Mexico has no private ownership of beaches. Right? So you can draw the line at certain points.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. Do you enjoy doing this kind of thing. We break things down and give your perspective on things and try to illuminate certain complex subjects?

Naval Ravikant:
I'm not trying to illuminate so much as — you know, talking to you, I learn as much as I say. And I learn it from myself because I'm being forced to articulate it, right? I can sit around and think my thoughts all day long, but a lot of it's gonna be nonsense. It's not — I'm gonna — 'cause there are gaps in thinking where you make leaps, because you're kind to yourself that you don't realize you're making. But when you're forced to write it down, and this is why I tweet, or when you have to talk to somebody, you have to complete those gaps and make it a proper logical chain. And the mistake that I made when I was young was, you know, I always wanted to seem like the smartest kid in the room, you know, like, just like you probably want to seem like the funniest kid in the room or the toughest kid in the room, right? We're all losers starting out. We want to be winners. So we pick the thing we're good at and we double down on it. So I was one of the smartest kid in the room. So what did I do? I read a lot of books. I memorize a lot of things. And then whatever I hadn't memorized — this is pre-Google — I made it up [inaudible 1:32:41]. Okay? Pre-Google. After Google, fact checking started.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
And I had to get better, right? So Google improved me that way.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. A lot of people.

Naval Ravikant:
Exactly. So, now what I realized is that the biggest mistake was memorization. Right? Because when you're actually trying to live your life in congruence with reality, you want to have a deep understanding what you do and why you do it. And so it's much more important to know the basics really well there is to know the advanced. Knowing calculus wouldn't help you today, doesn't help you in business, doesn't help you in most things. But knowing arithmetic really well will help you, really, whether it's at the corner grocery store counting change, to figuring out the value of your podcast business, to figuring out how to do the probability math on, you know, some action that you want to take. So understanding basic mathematics cold is way more important than memorizing calculus concepts. And the problem is — and this is true of, I think, all reasoning, it's much better to know the basics from the ground up solid foundation of understanding, a steel frame of understanding, than it is to just have a scaffolding, we're just memorizing advanced concepts. This is why that a lot of people I'm sure that you listen to who are really smart, they use a lot of jargon and you can't quite follow their reasoning. You don't know how they're putting things together and you — this deep down suspicion, "They don't even really understand." Right? So if you look at the most powerful thinkers especially the ones where money or life is on the line, they have to understand the basics really, really well. Richard Feynman, the famous physicist was able to — he had this piece in one of his lectures where he takes you from counting numbers on your hand, all the way to calculus in four pages of text aurally but written down to four pages of text. And it's a complete unbroken logical chain that takes you through geometry, trigonometry, pre-calculus, analytic geometry, graphs, everything, all the way to calculus. He understood numbers at a core level. He didn't have to memorize anything. When you're memorizing, it's an indication that you don't understand. You should be able to re-derive anything on the spot. And if you can't, you don't know it.

Joe Rogan:
So do you apply that to things other than mathematics? You applied it to —

Naval Ravikant:
Everything.

Joe Rogan:
Everything.

Naval Ravikant:
Everything. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
You don't even make attempt to memorize things. Just make attempt to understand them.

Naval Ravikant:
You can't help but memorize things.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
But if you can't — And this is where Twitter is great for me, is I try to understand something. And then I try to write it down in such a way that I can remember it, just the basic hook that will point towards the deeper understanding. And I'm forced to explain it to people. And that's how I know I understand something. So this is what I meant originally we talked about reading, a good book I'll read one page in a night, and then I'll spend the rest of night thinking about it, or I'm chasing down references in Wikipedia or weird blog posts trying to understand it. You know. So for example, there was a — I was dealing with — this is a few months back, I was dealing with a question of — stupid topic but — the meaning of life, right? What's the meaning —

Joe Rogan:
How could that be stupid though?

Naval Ravikant:
Well, it's trite. It's trite. You're not supposed to think about it. It's something you ask your parents when you're young.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
They tell you, "Don't worry about it," or they say it's —

Joe Rogan:
"Go get the job, hippie."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, exactly. "Get a job, you friggin' hippie," or "Here is God. God is the meaning of life," right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And so I was just trying to resolve for myself, like, "What could the answer be?" Right? Not, "What is the answer?" But, "What could the answer be?" And so, at a core level, I was forced to kind of hunting down all these weird little things and really understand for myself. And it's got to be personal, right? But I've established, for myself, what it could and could not be. And that gave me some level of peace. So now I have to keep asking that question.

Joe Rogan:
What is the meaning of life?

Naval Ravikant:
I mean, you — I think the question is more interesting than the answer. Everyone should explore this on their own. But let me just explore a few parts with you, right?

Joe Rogan:
Okay.

Naval Ravikant:
So first is, if I gave you an answer, if I said, "The meaning of life is to please God." "Well, which God?" "Okay. Judeo-Christian God." "Well, okay. Why that one? Why this thing?" The problem is it's a why question. You can keep asking why forever, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Any answer I give you, you will just ask why again, why again. Why again.

Joe Rogan:
Right. We're little kids.

Naval Ravikant:
That's right. And you end up in a place called [inaudible 1:36:42]. Okay? This is a philosophical exercise. But I kind of thought it through, then googled around it and there's a thing called [inaudible 1:36:48]. And [inaudible 1:36:50] says that any questioning like this, why, will always end in one of three places. Okay? First is infinite regress. Right? "Why?" "Because of this." "Why that? Why this. And it just keep playing forever. The second is circular reasoning. "Well, A." "Why A?" "Because of B." "Well, why B?" "Because of A." You're trapped in that. Or the third is an axiom. And the most popular axiom is God. But it could be anything; because of math, because of science, because the big bang, because of simulation. Right? These are all axioms. These are all just stopping points. Saying simulation — We're in a simulation or saying it's the big bang is just another way of saying God. God's a dirty word, so we don't use it as much anymore, but same thing. So you end up in one of these three dead ends, essentially. Right? So there is no answer. The real answer is because. Right.

Joe Rogan:
What is the meaning of life?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. You get to make up your own answer is the beauty. If there was a single answer, we would not be free. We would be trapped. Because then we would all have to live to that answer. Then we'd be Borg like robots. Each one competing with each other to fulfill that single meaning more than the others. Back to signaling, like I'm better at it than you are. But luckily there is no answer, so you just do whatever you want.

Joe Rogan:
The meaning of life. It's funny that that was the basis of all existential angst, that you don't —

Naval Ravikant:
You don't know why you're here.

Joe Rogan:
And you have this feeling that it could be meaning less. It is — I mean, if you — when you start pondering the multiverse, the universe, the galaxies, the solar system, the planet, the organism, the cells inside the organism, the bacteria, the parasites, the symbiotic relationship we have to our environment, and you start going, "Jesus Christ, what — am I just a little piece of this thing?" It's like —

Naval Ravikant:
Well, the answers to all the great questions are paradoxes.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
So for example, you're asking like, "Do I matter?" That's like really the question you asked, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, "How do I matter in this infinite universe?" Well, you know, on the one hand, you're separate. No two points are the same, every point is — every two points are infinitely different. You're completely separated. No one will have your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings, your experience, so your life as a single player game. You're trapped inside your head and you're just aware of a bunch of things going on and that's it. On the other hand, I cannot say the word Joe Rogan without invoking the entire universe. Joe Rog- alien comes along says, "What's that?" "Joe Rogan." "What's Joe Rogan?" "That's a human." "What's a human?" "Bipedal ape." "What's an ape?" "On the earth." "What's the earth?" "Planet." "What's a planet?" "Solar system." "Where was the carbon made?" "Inside stars." Right? It's like, I have to create the entire universe to just say the words Joe Rogan. So in that sense, you're connected to everything. It's inseparable. So the answer to that question of, "Do I matter?" Is, "I am nothing and I am everything." And you'll find this with all the great questions. The answers are all paradoxes, which is why at some level, it's sort of pointless to pursue them, to find a trite answer like I'm giving. But the act of pursuing them is actually really useful because then it gives you certain intrinsic understanding in your life that brings a level of peace.

Joe Rogan:
I feel like there's — with many people, this stress of this question is also accentuated by unhappy lives. It's accentuated by unhappy choices, by being trapped. There's a big difference between not knowing what the meaning of life is and, "God, I've got gotta get the fuck out of this job. I have to. I can't live my life this way. What's the meaning of lifei if this is my life?".

Naval Ravikant:
Which is why I always start with, "Let's get you rich first." That's why I'm very practical about it. Because, look. You know, Buddha was a prince. Okay? He started out really rich, and then he got to go off in the woods. And in the old days, what happened was, if you wanted to be peaceful inside, you would become a monk. You would renounce everything. You'd become an ascetic. You would give everything up.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
You'd renounce women, men. You'd renounce children. You'd renounce money. You'd renounce politics, science, technology, everything. And you would go out in the woods by yourself. You had to give everything up to be free inside. Well, today, we have this wonderful invention called money where you can just store stuff up in a bank account. Okay? And you can basically save — You can work really hard. You can do great things for society and society will give you money for giving it things that it wants and it doesn't know how to get. And then you can save that up. And you can live well below what your means and you can find a certain freedom in that, and that will give you the time and the energy to pursue your own internal peace and happiness. So I believe the solution to making everybody happy is to give them what they want. Let's get them all rich. Well, let's get them all fit and healthy, and then let's get them all happy.

Joe Rogan:
Is — Are those things even possible? Can ev-

Naval Ravikant:
Absolutely.

Joe Rogan:
Everyone can be rich?

Naval Ravikant:
Everyone can be rich.

Joe Rogan:
Everyone.

Naval Ravikant:
Here's my thought exercise for you.

Joe Rogan:
Now it seems like we're in an infomercial. "Everyone can be rich."

Naval Ravikant:
I'm not selling any —

Joe Rogan:
"Look at my home. This is my Rolls Royce."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. So, that's a good point.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So everything that I've ever created on this topic of how to make money, I will never charge a dollar for. Because that would ruin it. That would show that I'm just another huckster —

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
— who's ready to get rich off of you. There are no get rich quick. That's just somebody else trying to get rich off of you, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So it's — So to me, it's more of a philosophical contribution where — for it to have meaning, and to be legit. I can't charge you anything for it. But yes, everybody can be rich. And let me give you a thought exercise. Okay? Imagine if tomorrow, we could wave a wand and everybody was trained as a scientist or an engineer. Everybody. Even if you weren't very good, you had enough understanding computers, you could write some code, you could build some hardware. And don't tell me people can't do it, because they can. That's just the [inaudible 1:42:39] of soft expectations. That's just you looking down on somebody else. They can do it. They just have to be educated. Now if they're educated, all this hardware, software, engineers, scientists, biologists, technicians — hard sciences, not the social sciences. We would all be done within five years. Robots would be doing everything, from cleaning toilets to cooking food to flying airplanes and driving Ubers. And what would we be doing? We would be doing all creative jobs to entertain each other and researching science and technology. We would have wonderful lives. So it is really just a question of education. Nothing else.

Joe Rogan:
Is this a scale issue though? I mean, you're talking about it as if this would work with 300 million people.

Naval Ravikant:
It'll work with 10 billion people. It'll work —

Joe Rogan:
Really?

Naval Ravikant:
— with space-faring race with 100 trillion people, just [inaudible 1:43:11].

Joe Rogan:
We have the resources. We have the ability.

Naval Ravikant:
The universe has infinite resources. You build it. You know, have you heard of a Dyson sphere?

Joe Rogan:
Mm-hmm.

Naval Ravikant:
You know, you pull the Dyson sphere on a star and you gather all its energy, like that. There's so much energy out there. One asteroid's got all the minerals that we need. One sun, one solar system has got all the power we would need for a long, long time. You know, we can extract it of nuclear fusion, you know. We're not that far from those kinds of technologies working. It's just a question of guts and, you know, and interests. Like, we should be building Nuclear Fusion test plants on the moon. The moon should be littered with [inaudible 1:43:45], it's no downside.

Joe Rogan:
Right. Yeah. How would that work?

Naval Ravikant:
Well, it —

Joe Rogan:
Does it send a bunch of people up there to work?

Naval Ravikant:
The problem — Robots.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
The problem with fission — nuclear fission is that, you know, nature creates energy through nuclear energy. Right? Like, the sun creates energy. Nuclear energy. Now for transmission, we use photons because photons don't interact. And so photons are great for information transmission, but they're actually not great for energy transmission. For energy creation, you want nuclear to work. And the problem is, because nuclear energy, you know, we built it with a bomb, we have dirty nukes, all those kinds of problems at Fukushima. Three Mile Island Chernobyl. We don't innovate anymore on nukes. Imagine if when the first steam engine blew up we said, "Oh, no more steam engines for a while."

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Very carefully regulated. Billion dollars of regulation. You can't innovate that way. When the first airplane crashed, we said, "No more innovation in airplanes." Right? So we need a way to iterate on nuclear fission, and eventually fusion, and get them working, safely, cleanly, passive failure, et cetera. If we're gonna find our way out of the energy trap. And the best place to do that is someplace like on the moon or Mars.

Joe Rogan:
Do you think that it's actually a possibility that they could get nuclear power to the point where it's not a detriment? Because what everyone's worried about is a meltdown, right?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
And we do have these old plants that are running on this.

Naval Ravikant:
This is 50 year old technology.

Joe Rogan:
It's crazy.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
Because there's no ability to shut them off.

Naval Ravikant:
Right. And very old technology. They do now have Gen IV nuclear reactors that are passive failsafe. So in other words, when they fail, they fail into a s- we need to pull the plug on them. They fell into a state where there's no leakage. There's no problem.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Their default is a positive outcome as opposed to the current ones, the old ones, where if you unplug them, like, everything melt down.

Joe Rogan:
And these — even these Gen IV are just Gen IV. They're not Gen V, Gen VI —

Naval Ravikant:
They're not Gen 80.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Gen 100.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
We are microprocessors, right?

Joe Rogan:
And that should be something that people are working towards.

Naval Ravikant:
I hope so. I mean, in an ideal world, we would — The problem is, if you have nuclear energy on the moon, how do you get it home. Right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So what you actually got to do is you've got a rabbit on the moon, and you're using it there maybe to launch more satellites, more rockets, further out into the solar system. And that's the initial use case. But then eventually, the technology gets so good you can bring it home.

Joe Rogan:
Now I want to go back to this idea of getting people rich, that somehow or another, that's gonna make people happy. How do you stop the natural progression that people have of, you know, "Oh, you know, I have got a nice Chevrolet."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
"But I really want a BMW. I've got a nice BMW, but now I want a Mercedes. I have Merce- I want a Ferrari."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
How do you stop that material —

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
— possession trap because —

Naval Ravikant:
You can't at some level. But I think most smart people over time realize that possession is don't make them happy. Right? It's just, you have to go through that. You have to buy your stupid car to realize that it doesn't attract girls, it actually attracts other dudes who are like, "Hey. I like that car, man."

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Like, you have some expensive cars out there, some fancy cars. Tell me how, you know, how much that attracts women versus men.

Joe Rogan:
Well, I'm married. Those are for me. I just enjoy machines.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
So for me they're toys.

Naval Ravikant:
That's a particular thing we enjoy machines. But I think very — as you get older, you just realize that there is no happiness in material possessions. Now, lack of material possessions can make you very unhappy.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
So being poor can make you unhappy, but being rich is not gonna make you happy. And what happens, unfortunately, a lot of people struggle through their whole lives to make money. They make some. They're exhausted. And then they're like, "Well, now, why am I not happy? I guess I'm just not a happy person and smart people aren't happy." That's like got a great little way — People feel better about it, they say, "Well, if you're smart, you're not happy." Right?

Joe Rogan:
That's right.

Naval Ravikant:
Whereas I positive the other way. If you're smart, you should be able to figure out how to be happy, otherwise you're not that smart.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah that is an offensive statement, that if you're smart, you're not happy. I've heard that before and I just do not understand the logic of that other than self-justifying.

Naval Ravikant:
I understand where it comes from.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It comes from, if you're smart, it's usually because you thought things through and you have very busy mind.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And so, busy mind can often rob you of peace of mind.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Because when the peace that we seek is not peace of mind, it's peace from mind. Right? And so if you look at all the crazy activities you do to be happy. All right? Whether it's like trying to get laid and have an orgasm or, you know, extreme sports or looking at something beautiful or taking a psychedelic, you're trying to get out of your own mind. You're trying to get your monkey mind to stop chattering at you for a moment. You're trying to get peace from the mind. And there are other better ways to do that. Most of the ways we try to get peace from mind are indirect, whereas if you understand things if you see things properly you will naturally slowly develop peace from mind. Sorry if I went on a tangent there.

Joe Rogan:
No, it's a good tangent. It's a good tangent because I think that oftentimes the pursuit is what's thrilling to people and the possibility that one day they'll be able to rest and that they'll have reached this goal.

Naval Ravikant:
That's the fundamental delusion, that there is something out there that will make me happy and —

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
— [inaudible 1:48:56] forever.

Joe Rogan:
The golden years.

Naval Ravikant:
There is, it's called death.

Joe Rogan:
Oh.

Naval Ravikant:
That'll take care of everything. That's the great leveler.

Joe Rogan:
But when people look at, particularly social media — let's bring it back to that. When you see someone who — you know, you see them posed in front of their mansion, with their beautiful car, and they're leaning against it with their designer clothes on, their expensive watch. I want that.

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
That's what I want.

Naval Ravikant:
What you really want is freedom. You want freedom from your money problems.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
And I think that's okay. So people — once someone can solve their money problems, either by lowering their lifestyle or by making enough money, and, you know essentially, what you want to get everybody to the retirement. But not retirement in the, "I'm 65 years old sitting, in a nursing home, collecting a check," retirement. Different definition. Retirement is when you stop sacrificing today for some imaginary tomorrow. Okay?

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
When today is complete in and of itself, you're retired.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And so, how do you get there? Well, one is, you can have so much money saved up that just your passive income off of that without you having to lift a finger. Coverage your burn rate. Keep your burn rate low. Right? A second is, you just drive your burn rate down to zero. You become a monk. A third is, you're doing something you love. You enjoy it so much it's not about the money.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
So there are multiple ways to that path, but the most common is people just say, "I need to make more money." And the kind of wealth creation that I talk about is about creating timeless principles and adapting yourself that making money won't be an issue, and you can do it by doing what you love. Right? Like we get into this model of, "I must work for other people, working my way up the ladder. I must, like, do what that person is doing to make money. But really today in society, you get rewarded for creative work, for creating something brand new that society didn't even know yet that it wanted. That doesn't know how to get other than through you. So the most powerful moneymakers are actually individual brands, people like yourself or Elon or Kanye or Oprah or Trump, right? These are individual brands. Eponymous name brands who themselves are leverage. Like you are leveraged. You have podcast media going out to everybody, that's leveraged. The podcast work for you when you sleep. They have knowledge that nobody else has, which is your knowledge is the knowledge of being Joe Rogan. I mean, who else is a UFC fighter and a commentator at a podcast and a comedian and, you know, interesting all these things and knows all these people, can't replace you. So we have to pay you what you're worth, and —

Joe Rogan:
I never fought in the FCU.

Naval Ravikant:
Oh, you didn't? Okay. Sorry. Or you know, whatever. You're involved in that whole scene. You just have a unique set of skill-sets. So because of this unique what I call specific knowledge, because of the accountability that you have with your name, because the leverage that you have through your media, you're a money making machine. I'm sure at this point, I can make you start over tomorrow, wipe out your bank account. You'd be rich again in no time. Because you have all the skill-sets. So once people have those skill-sets, and the beauty is the way you've done it, is you don't have any competition. There's no substitution. If Joe Rogan were to disappear off the air tomorrow, it's not like random podcast number twelve would step in and fill that thing. No. It's just gone. So the way to get out of that competition trap is actually to be authentic. The way to retire is actually to find the thing that you know how to do better than anybody. And you know how to do that better because you love to do it. No one can compete with you if you love to do it. Be authentic and then figure out how to map that to what society actually wants. Apply some leverage, put your name on it, so you take the risks, but you gain the rewards. Have ownership and equity in what you do and then just crank it up.

Joe Rogan:
I think people have to be very careful to not get trapped along the way with things that you can afford with your current lifestyle, the way you're living and the way you're earning, but they're also imprisoning you and the fact that you are now going to have to work this 40 hour week job in order to get this thing that you can afford. But now you're saddled down to this job. You're not saving. You're not putting things in a good pla- and you're working for these things. Working for things as rewards —

Naval Ravikant:
Right.

Joe Rogan:
— is a real trap that a lot of people fall into.

Naval Ravikant:
It's the biggest one. Nassim Taleb also says that under two great addictions; heroin and a monthly salary. And that's why you can't get rich [inaudible 1:53:15] your time.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Because, you know, when you start charging more and more for your time it's a slow upgrade loop, and then you upgrade your house, at the same time your car, at the same time you move in the neighborhood. You really also have to get used to ignoring your peers or upgrading or changing the definition of your peers.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
A lot of people here who are poor here, but they would be rich if they were living in Thailand and Bali. And if they had the luxury of a remotely doable job, they may want to be living there and saving up money.

Joe Rogan:
But the ignoring the peers is an issue, because the Keeping Up with the Joneses is a real phenomenon. Yeah envy makes the world go around. And then there's this other thing that people have to avoid even allowing their mind to think when they're hearing what you're saying. And all those logical fantastic advice there's these six dirty words, "That's easy for you to say.".

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
That is a terrible trap.

Naval Ravikant:
And look, I grew up as a first generation immigrant in Jamaica Queens with zero money. Single mom, two kids, working day and night, go to school. You know. I wash dishes. I was working catering jobs. I was mowing lawns. I was working since the age of eleven on and off here and there. Then have two cents to rub together. You know. I had to borrow $400 to go to college, like, I was short $400.

Joe Rogan:
400.

Naval Ravikant:
I had to find $400.

Joe Rogan:
Wow.

Naval Ravikant:
I didn't have it. You know, got rejected from a job at Dunkin Donuts. So like, okay, it's not to say that it's easy.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
It's not easy.

Joe Rogan:
It's not easy.

Naval Ravikant:
It actually really frickin hard.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
It is the hardest thing you will do. But it's also the rewarding thing. You know, look at the kids who are born rich, no meaning to their lives.

Joe Rogan:
It's desirable place.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Your real resumé is just a catalogue of all your suffering. If I were to ask you to describe your real life to yourself, when you look back on your deathbed, you're gonna go back and say what are the interesting things I've done and it's all going to be around the sacrifices that you've made and the hard things that you did.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Anything you were given doesn't matter. You know, you have your four limbs, you have your brain, you have your head, you have your skin. That's all for granted. So you have to do hard things anyway to create your own meaning in life. Making money is a fine one. Yes, struggle. It is hard. I'm not gonna say it's easy. It's really hard. But the tools are all available. It's all there.

Joe Rogan:
There's also there's these traps that people sort of establish in their own mind of giving themselves excuses or giving themselves insurmountable obstacles, insurmountable paths, victory.

Naval Ravikant:
Victim mentality.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, it's somebody else's fault. That's my skin-color's fault. That's the system's fault. Yeah. Those people are sinking. I feel bad for them. I want to shake them out of it and say, "Actually, you can get out of it. You just have to stop thinking it's everybody else's fault."

Joe Rogan:
You have to alter the perspective.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
But it's so difficult for people to do. It's one of the most difficult things for people to do is to change the way they approach reality itself.

Naval Ravikant:
At the end of the day, I do think, even despite what I said earlier, life is really a single player game. It's all going on in your head. You know, whatever you think you believe will very much shape your reality, both from what risks you take and what actions you perform, but also just everyday experience of reality. If you're walking down the street and you're judging everyone, you're like, "I don't like that person because their skin color, I don't like that — Oh, she's not attractive. That guy is fat. This person is a loser. Oh, who put this in my way." You know, the more you judge, the more you gonna separate yourself. And you'll feel good for an instant because you'll feel good about yourself. "I'm better than that." But then you gonna feel lonely. And then you're just going to see negativity everywhere. The world just reflects your own feelings back at you. Reality is neutral. Reality has no judgments. To a tree, there's no concept of right or wrong or good or bad, right? You're born, you have a whole set of sensory experiences in stimulations and lights and colors and sounds, and then you die.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And how you choose to interpret, that is up to you. You do have that choice. So this is what I meant, that happiness is a choice. If you believe it's a choice, then you can start working on it. And I can't tell you how to find it, because it's your own conditioning that are making you unhappy. So you have to unconditioned yourself. It's just like, I can't fix your eating habits for you. I can give you some general guidelines. but you got to go through the hard habit forming of how to eat right. But you have to believe it's possible and it is absolutely possible. I was miserable. I'm happy as a clam. And it's not just the money, I got there before the money.

Joe Rogan:
You got happy before the money?

Naval Ravikant:
Mostly, yeah.

Joe Rogan:
How did you get happy before the money.

Naval Ravikant:
I started getting older, you know. I just realized, like, life is short, I'm gonna die.

Joe Rogan:
Again. Try it, right?

Naval Ravikant:
Try it. Try it.

Joe Rogan:
Anyways.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Well, Confucius had a great saying that, you know, "Every man has two lives. And the second starts when he realizes he has just one."

Joe Rogan:
Wow.

Naval Ravikant:
And I read that. It was one of those book dropping lines. You know, it's like mic drop. Confucius had a lot of mic drops.

Joe Rogan:
Confucius is a bad motherfucker.

Naval Ravikant:
He was.

Joe Rogan:
That's a crazy one.

Naval Ravikant:
That was a great one. Or another one is, "Next time you get sick –" You know, because everybody may get sick every now and then. It's like, "A happy person wants ten thousand things, a sick person just wants one thing." Right? So it's your unlimited desires that are clouding your peace, your happiness, have desires. You're a biological creature, stands up and says, "I can do something. I move. I resist. I live." But just be very careful about your desires. This is the oldest most trite wisdom, desire is suffering. That's what it means, right? Every desire you have is an access where you will suffer. So just don't focus on more than one desire at a time. The universe is rigged in such a way that if you just want one thing and you focus on that, you'll get it. But everything else, you got to let go.

Joe Rogan:
Did you make a gradual shift to happiness or was it a radical change?

Naval Ravikant:
It's ongoing. It's gradual. Everyday gets better.

Joe Rogan:
So you were happier today than you were a month ago.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Allegedly.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Yeah, I'm very happy these days. Deliriously so. It's actually hard for me to hang out with normal people.

Joe Rogan:
Really?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
So you've made a significant shift over the period of like, how many years?

Naval Ravikant:
Probably about eight years.

Joe Rogan:
Eight years.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Wow. And is this something that you've pursued through certain books or is it just like you've made an understanding or gained an understanding in your own mind, and then started pursuing it based on an understanding?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, it's very, very personal. It's basically, you have to decide it's a priority. And then I tried every hack I possibly could. I used — to you know, I tried all the — I tried meditation, I tried witnessing, you know, I even tried [inaudible 1:59:46], just to see what it feel like.

Joe Rogan:
How did it feel?

Naval Ravikant:
It was it turned me from a pessimist to an optimist, but I didn't like the physical side effects nor did I want to be in a drug for sustained basis. So I dropped it, and I felt —

Joe Rogan:
So, it did turn you into an optimist?

Naval Ravikant:
Yes.

Joe Rogan:
Interesting.

Naval Ravikant:
At the time, I used to be a pessimist. Yeah. I started doing things like I would start looking at the — you know, in every moment and everything that happens, you can look on the bright side of something, right? And so I used to do that forcibly and then I trained it until it became second nature. So for example, like a friend of my wife's was over, and she — when we were dating, and she took all these photos, she took like hundreds of photos, and then she sends them all to us. And my immediate reaction was like, "Why are you dumping hundreds of photos on my phone? I don't need hundreds of photos." Have some judgment.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
That was my immediate reaction. And then I could say, "Actually, how nice of her. She sent me hundreds of photos. I could pick the one that I'd like." Right? There are two ways of seeing almost everything.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
There are few things that are like high suffering so you can't do that, other than just saying, "Well, this is a teacher." Right? But I slowly work through every negative judgment that I had until I saw the positive. and that second nature to me. I also realized that like what you want is you want to clear minds, you want to let go of thoughts. Happy thoughts disappear out ahead automatically, very easy to let go of them. Negative thoughts linger. So if you interpret the negative, the positive and everything very quickly, you let it go. Right? You let it go much faster. Simple hacks get more sunlight, right? Learn to smile more. Learn to hug more these things actually released serotonin in reverse. They aren't just outward signals of being happy. They're actually feedback loops to being happy. Spend more time in nature. You know, these are obvious. Watch your mind. Watch your mind all day long. Watch what it does, not judge it, not try to control it, but you can meditate 24/7. Meditation is not a sit down, close your eyes activity. Meditation is just basically watching your own thoughts like you would watch anything else in the outside world, and say, "Why am I having that thought? Does that serve me anymore? Is that conditioning from when I was 10 years old? Like, for example, getting ready for this podcast.

Joe Rogan:
You got ready?

Naval Ravikant:
I didn't.

Joe Rogan:
Oh good.

Naval Ravikant:
But I did. But I did. But I did.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, you did.

Naval Ravikant:
I couldn't help it. And what happened was the few days leading up to this, my mind was just running. And normally my mind is pretty calm, and it was just running and running and running. And every thought I would have, I would imagine me saying it to you. My brain couldn't help but rehearse what it's doing. It's just rehearsing all the time to talk to you. And then I was even rehearsing — rehearse telling you about the rehearsal. Right? So it was all playing all these meta-games. And I was like, "Shut up. Stop it. What is going on?" And it took me a while to figure out. "Oh yeah." You know what it is. When I was a kid in Queens and I had no money and I had nothing, and I needed to save myself, the way I got out was by sounding smart. Not being smart, sounding smart. That was the skill I perfected. So I am hardwired to always rehearse things so I will sound smart. It's a disease that keeps me from being happy. But when you see that, when you realize that, when you understand something, then it naturally calms you down. So after that, I stop rehearsing as much.

Joe Rogan:
Wow.

Naval Ravikant:
But is still a trained habit.

Joe Rogan:
That is a really interesting point that you want to sound smart. Many people do that and especially young people. When you see someone who is smart or someone who appears smart, they say smart things. You kind of want to sound smart. I want people to think about me the same way I think about that person.

Naval Ravikant:
That is my disease. That is my feeling. It is what clutters my mind. The thing I have to ask myself now is, if I can — Would I still be interested in learning this thing if I couldn't ever tell anybody about it? That's how I know it's real. That's how I know something I actually want.

Joe Rogan:
That's a common thing though. I know I suffered from that when I was young, the desire to sound smart. It's very common.

Naval Ravikant:
Well, all of us start out — you know, everything you're a winner now in your life, it's because you were a loser at some point.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
If you had gotten all the girls, if you had all the money, if you had everything you want, you're a good looking and in junior/higher high school, you wouldn't have done anything with your life. And you would have peaked early. It's like the Bruce Springsteen Glory Days song, right?

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
You were to marry your high school sweetheart. You'd be living in your hometown. You know, you'd be a manager at the local McDonald's, whatever that first dream job you had. Thank God, we didn't all get what we wanted when we were young.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
Or we would be trapped in that. So you have to be able to break out of where you came from. I don't know where I was going.

Joe Rogan:
That is interesting too about people who peaked too early.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah.

Joe Rogan:
Or maybe those people that peaked too early can do the Elon Musk thing, and just abandon it and start something new, and then learn that the joys of sucking at something.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. And actually, in our profession especially, when your high visibility. The problem with peaking is that you then get drowned in death of a thousand cuts. People have expectations of you. "Hey, Joe, can you come to my event? Hey, Joe, can you look at my business plan? Hey, Joe, can give me advice in this? Can you, you know, talk to my friend? Can you come in this podcast." You're just being assaulted all the time with inbound opportunities. So you have no time to start over with anything. So you have to ruthlessly, ruthlessly disappoint everybody.

Joe Rogan:
Yes.

Naval Ravikant:
Eliminate and clear your schedule. Drop all the meetings, not even respond to the e-mails, is the only way you can be able to start over with anything.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah. We talked about this and I'd love your approach to meetings.

Naval Ravikant:
I hate meetings.

Joe Rogan:
If not life or death — I'm the same way. I avoided a good one recently and this was someone that was just tracking me down as a high profile person in a big organization and I'm like, "Can we just talk in the phone?" Then we talked on the phone. There was nothing to say. It was just — they wanted to get me in the office and come down.

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. And meetings should really be phone calls, phone calls should be e-mails.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
And e-mails should just be text. Right?

Joe Rogan:
Many of them, right?

Naval Ravikant:
With meetings — I mean, I despise meetings. I used to own the domain. I don't do coffee dot com. I eventually let it go, but I used to respond from default, I don't do coffee, you know.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, that's hilarious.

Naval Ravikant:
It is a little bit of a jerk move, but really where it comes from is when I was young, one of my principles was, I knew I had to make money. It was my overwhelming desire. And one of the things I did was I said, "Okay, I'm never gonna be worth more than what I think I'm worth." No one's gonna pay me more than what I think I'm worth. So what am I worth? So I picked an hourly rate for myself that I was worth. And I said I'm never gonna squander my time for less than this. Original is 500 bucks an hour, then I upgrade to 5,000 bucks an hour. You know, it's ludicrous. But pick an aspirational hourly rate. Aspirational. It has to be a little ludicrous. And then what I would do is if I have to return something, I'm standing in line to return something and it's below my hourly rate, I'll throw it away. If I have to — or give it away.

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
If I have to do some task and I can hire somebody to do it for less than my hourly rate I would hire them. And so I just became extremely jealous of my time. Which doesn't mean you can't have fun, rest, leisure, spending time with your friends and family. That's all great. Don't count that. But if you're doing anything you don't want to do — which is the definition of work. It's a set of things that you have to do that you don't want to do. If you're working, it better be for your hourly rate. Otherwise don't do the work. And so once it came out of that, then it just raise the cost of meetings. The cost of meetings is so high, especially given all the people who are in there, right? One person is talking, seven people listening, you're literally just dying an hour at a time. So you have to just drop non-urgent meetings or figure out how to be more efficient with them if you gonna do anything great. The extreme example is business travel. Getting on a plane to fly halfway around the world for one meeting, which never amounts to anything. And then like wasting your whole little life there and then flying back. So about five years ago I resolved, I am never gonna travel for business.

Joe Rogan:
Wow.

Naval Ravikant:
And I haven't traveled for business since. I only travel if the travel experience will be so entertaining and joyous because I have friends or to place I want to see or whatever, that it will be complete in and of itself. Because I know that whatever the business meeting I came from, it's never worth it.

Joe Rogan:
Wow.

Naval Ravikant:
And actually that principle applies larger than just travel. It applies to life in general. This — One of the secrets to happiness is to really embrace what you're doing in that moment. That's trite. But where that where that comes from is saying, "I only want to do actions that are complete in and of themselves," right? If I'm looking for some ulterior motive down the line, it's not gonna materialize. And if you think it is, maybe — even if it does, it'll be pretty short lived. Anything you want in your life, whether the car or whether it's a girl or there's plenty, when you got it, a year later, you're back to zero. Your brain had hedonically adapted to it, and you were looking for the next thing.

Joe Rogan:
That's a great statement, hedonically adapted. That is what happens to people. You get accustomed to whatever it is. I realize that when I first got a new apartment, it was a nice apartment. After a while I got used to it. I was like, "Oh, okay. This is just an apartment it's just where I live. I'm used to it. It's nice but I'm used to it."

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah, we all go through this learning. It's, you know, it's riding the Ferris Wheel of Life. It's like you get out the bottom like I want to get the top. That's so exciting. You ride it up, you get a little dopamine rush and get little serotonin. Then you ride it back down as that wears off and you need another high. Then you ride it back up and ride it back down. In fact the more highs you get, the harder it gets to go around the wheel, the more bored you get of it, the harder it goes to go back up.

Joe Rogan:
So what lights your fire now? Like, what gets you motivated to do things into act?

Naval Ravikant:
Art.

Joe Rogan:
Art?

Naval Ravikant:
This is art.

Joe Rogan:
Oh, okay.

Naval Ravikant:
Art is this creativity. It's just, anything that's done for its own sake. So what are the things that are done for their own sake? There's nothing beyond. Loving somebody, creating something, playing, art — to me, creating business is a play. I create businesses early stage because it's fun, because I'm into the product. Even when I invest, it's because I like the people, I like hanging out with them, I learn from them and I think the product is really cool. So these days, I will pass on all kinds of great investments because I'm like I just — the product's not interesting, it's boring. I'm not gonna learn anything.

Joe Rogan:
That's a beautiful luxury.

Naval Ravikant:
It is a luxury. Art and learning, yeah. It is a luxury — these are not 100% or 0 things, right?

Joe Rogan:
Right.

Naval Ravikant:
You can in your life start moving more and more towards that.

Joe Rogan:
Right. But it's a goal.

Naval Ravikant:
It's a goal. When I was younger, I used to be so desperate to make money that I would done anything. If you'd shown up and said, "Hey, I got a sewage trucking business and you're going to go into that," I said, "Great, let's do it. I want to make money." Thank God no one gave me that opportunity. I'm glad that it went down the road of technology and science which I genuinely enjoy. And so I got to combine my vocation and my avocation. I mean, what are you doing? You're playing. You're having fun.

Joe Rogan:
Yeah.

Naval Ravikant:
You're doing art. You're not working.

Joe Rogan:
No. That's what I would say when people say I work hard. I'm like, "Sorta, not really."

Naval Ravikant:
I'm always "working" but it looks like work to them but it feels like play to me. And that's how I know no one can compete with me on it, because I'm just playing 16 hours a day. And if they want to compete with me, and they're gonna work, they're gonna lose, because they're not gonna do it 16 hours a day, seven days a week.

Joe Rogan:
Listen, man. There are some gems of wisdom in this conversation and I hope people pull things out of this and apply them to their own life. And I'm certainly going to listen to you again and try to apply some of this to my own life, stuff that I'm not already applying. But I really appreciate your time and I really appreciate you coming in here.

Naval Ravikant:
Thanks for having me.

Joe Rogan:
And please tell people your small little podcast, it's just The Naval Podcast, right?

Naval Ravikant:
Yeah. Best way to find me is on Twitter, actually.

Joe Rogan:
Okay.

Naval Ravikant:
I'm just @naval. Then I have a website; @nav.al. I have a youtube channel; Naval. And I have a podcast; Naval. that's it.

Joe Rogan:
Well, thank you very much. Thank you.

Naval Ravikant:
Thank you, brother.

Joe Rogan:
I really appreciate it. Thank you. Bye, everybody.

Naval Ravikant:
Bye-bye.

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Lindzanity – Episode 1 – Farbood Nivi | Convert video-to-text with Sonix

Announcer:
Howard Lindzon is the Founder and General Partner at Social Leverage. All opinions expressed by Howard and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Social Leverage or StockTwits. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for decisions. Guests may maintain positions and securities discussed in this podcast.

Welcome to the first edpisode of Lindzanity

Howard Lindzon:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to my first episode of Lindzanity. And I'm excited as the first guest to have Farbood, a friend of mine. And I'm not going to give his last name. It's like Madonna. And he's the Madonna of crypto. And so, Farbood is going to talk about Coinmine, and we're going to talk about crypto in the future.

Howard Lindzon:
Dude, welcome to Lindzanity.

Farbood Nivi:
Thanks for having me.

Howard Lindzon:
Guest number one.

Farbood Nivi:
Guest number one.

Howard Lindzon:
So, there's a little pressure that goes with that.

Farbood Nivi:
Am I the guest, or is this the guest?

Howard Lindzon:
Both.

Farbood Nivi:
Thanks.

Howard Lindzon:
This is Coinmine, everybody, but we're going to get to that. So, meet Farbood. Farbood is Canadian?

Farbood Nivi:
Canadian, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Born in Canada.

Farbood Nivi:
I wasn't born in Canada, but I grew up there since I was a little kid, so you know.

Howard Lindzon:
So, we have that in common.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
I'm from Toronto. But we met through a friend, Brian Norgard. And so, I wanted him in my first show when I started Wall Street back in 2006. And that was a daily show. So, that was like it my whole business, was going to be the show. I'm not an actor. I'm not anything. I'm not a media person at the time. I just had an idea to do a show. And it was going to be a show about, like, trends. And at the time, I was so bullish on Apple, and the retail stores, and that was our first show.

Farbood Nivi:
How long ago was this?

Howard Lindzon:
It's 2006.

Farbood Nivi:
Okay.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, flash forward to 2018, obviously, there's a low budget, Lindzanity. And the idea is talk about trends, money, millennials, culture, fashion, technology, investing, and everything about that-

Farbood Nivi:
All my favorite things.

Howard Lindzon:
… is crypto.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And I know maybe if the world has all this knowledge, I know this little bit-.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
… about crypto enough to be dangerous. And you know a lot more, but I can't put it in context how much you know.

Farbood Nivi:
Everyone in crypto knows very little about crypto. It's part of the nature of something that's that big, and moving that quickly, and that new.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, when Apple, in 2006, wasn't new, and the stores were like laughed at, and had 60 or 70 stores, and it's like, "You can't do retail," but in my mind, I knew it had kind of a jumped. Like retail was the thing. That was going to be their moat.

Farbood Nivi:
Right.

Bitcoin and crypto and why Farbood Nivi is a perfect guest

Howard Lindzon:
And so, Wall Street was about trends, and since the show is going to be about basically trends too, just a podcast, no better topic than polarizing, exciting, scary, out-there topic then Bitcoin and crypto. And then, compound that with how to make crypto or how to mine crypto. So, you're the perfect guest.

Farbood Nivi:
Thanks.

Howard Lindzon:
No pressure.

Farbood Nivi:
Thanks.

Howard Lindzon:
And we'll either look really smart in 10 years and go, "Wow, Howard had Coinmine on as his first guest."

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
Or you'll be a hunted man.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. I mean-

Howard Lindzon:
So, you have to live with it.

Farbood Nivi:
That's fine. I'm okay with all that. I mean, bullish on Apple in 2006, that's about-

Howard Lindzon:
It feels the same.

Farbood Nivi:
… one-quarter of the market cap than it is today. So, that sounded like a pretty good call. So, if we go the same way with Bitcoin, I mean, I think we may go more. And, you know, the past couple of weeks, we've been seeing things move. But quite frankly, even when it doesn't move, I think it's actually important and interesting when, you know, especially bitcoin's price stays consistent for, you know, half a year. That says a lot about it as much as when it's highly volatile.

Howard Lindzon:
So, when did you get the bug?

Farbood Nivi:
Probably-

Howard Lindzon:
Do you remember?

Farbood Nivi:
What is it? 2019? So-

Howard Lindzon:
It's April 2018.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And Bitcoin today-

Farbood Nivi:
'19.

Howard Lindzon:
Oh, 2019.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And we are crypto right around 49.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, a bit about that.

Howard Lindzon:
Bitcoin's about 5K. What's the market cap, give or take?

Farbood Nivi:
You got me. It's above a hundred.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. Let's say it's 100 billion.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It's been as high as 200-300 billion.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Almost 400 billion. So, bear market, crypto winner, whatever we want to call it. And it's been — you know, luckily, for me, it doesn't change my life, but I'm over the hump of believing. Now, my belief comes from I hate the banks, I don't trust the financial system. I mean, I use it, I respect it, I pay my bills, I don't get nervous when I send a wire, but I hate my bank for whatever reason, and there's a million reasons to hate it. And if I'm middle America, or I'm poor, and I overdraft my account, it's $20. And as we were talking on the way over, someone just did a Bitcoin transact-

Farbood Nivi:
$63 million, yes.

Howard Lindzon:
$63 million transaction for $4.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
So, you have something over. My son-

Farbood Nivi:
Probably sent over in like 10 minutes.

Howard Lindzon:
My son sent a Venmo that he couldn't clear himself. He didn't have money in his account. It cost him $7.50.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
Someone just cleared $63 million on Bitcoin for $4.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
That's why I'm bullish. It's little anecdotes like that.

Farbood Nivi:
And, sometimes, wiring from one side of the planet to the other is a week. You know, you get an investor, they send their wire, and they're like, "Yeah, you should receive it in your bank sometime next week." People complain that a Bitcoin transaction can take 10 minutes or if it gets really busy, it might take a day or two. But it takes a week to wire, and it costs you hundreds of dollars.

Howard Lindzon:
The difference is you have some faith that you can go and yell at somebody if the transaction doesn't happen. Bitcoin's just that next leap of faith. So, there's where we've got to get over the hump. But the point is — so, when did you get the bug? And we'll get into all the rest.

Farbood Nivi:
2015.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, who got you into it?

Farbood Nivi:
Just, you know, living in San Francisco, it's tough to not know about it. You know, I think, probably in 2015, most people outside of San Francisco's barely had even heard of it, but people had been talking about it in San Francisco for five years. And I think it started in 2009.

Howard Lindzon:
So, it didn't resonate with you until then?

Farbood Nivi:
It didn't really resonate with me until then, but, I think, it was probably mostly because I was just busy with startups, and so didn't really take the time to sit down, and look at it, and think through it. But I think when you do, it's tough to not kind of be bit by the bug when you actually, like, take a little bit of time.

Howard Lindzon:
And where were you working at the time?

Farbood Nivi:
I was working on a previous startup, I think, Learnist.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. And your brother's famous.

Farbood Nivi:
Right, right.

Howard Lindzon:
Is he your one sibling?

Farbood Nivi:
Just one sibling. Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Your brother is the co-founder of AngelList.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. He started AngelList with Naval.

Howard Lindzon:
And what's he doing now?

Farbood Nivi:
Still doing some AngelList stuff and-.

Howard Lindzon:
He's living in LA like you?

Farbood Nivi:
A lot of advising, you know.

Howard Lindzon:
But he's a legend.

Farbood Nivi:
Citizen-

Howard Lindzon:
I didn't know you and didn't even connect the name. Many people are, but when I met you, I didn't connect that it was-

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
… you know, Nivi's brother.

Farbood Nivi:
He's slowly coming back out of the woodworks. You know, he's always been advising entrepreneurs like myself.

Howard Lindzon:
Is he older?

Farbood Nivi:
He's a couple of years older than I am.

Howard Lindzon:
Is he a Bitcoin believer or is he skeptical?

Farbood Nivi:
I'd say he's a believer, but he's not like a techno geek like I am. He's not a techno file like I am. You know, he likes to — the main thing he likes it do help entrepreneurs, to be honest.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
That's [crosstalk].

Howard Lindzon:
So, he's helping you. He's not part of the religion of it. How do you separate the religion from just building a business? And we'll get to Coinmine in a bit. How do you separate it? And what made you take the leap from like hearing about it, to believing about it, to starting Coinmine?

Farbood Nivi:
I don't think you can separate them. There's a lot of belief required in getting into anything that's new, that's trying to be big. You can't really separate the belief from it. The piece that, sort of, made me feel like we had to build Coinmine really comes out of the philosophy behind crypto, the philosophy behind Bitcoin. I think of it in terms of the printing press a lot. I talk about how, you know, the Gutenberg — the printing press existed for a long time, but only the people in power could use them. They were expensive, you couldn't print much, and it allowed people to control information and knowledge.

Farbood Nivi:
Gutenberg's innovations made it easy for anyone to do the printing press. It's sort of the situation, you know, where a genie gets out of the bottle and can't be put back in. And in certain places at certain times, it was illegal to have a printing press, and you might be put to death for having a printing press.

Howard Lindzon:
Well, you still may.

Farbood Nivi:
You still may.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
But the genie couldn't be put back in the bottle.

Howard Lindzon:
Got it.

Where crypto all started – Satoshi and Bitcoin mining

Farbood Nivi:
And so, with crypto, you know, you get these. You know, it started out with Bitcoin mining. And part of the beauty of crypto is this insane idea that Satoshi came up with where it balances all these different parties together and creates an incentive structure for people to share their computing power. They get rewarded in this thing where, you know, if you were mining Bitcoin in 2010, and Bitcoin is essentially worth pennies, you're kind of like a crazy person. Why would you give up a perfectly good laptop to mine Bitcoin that's worthless?

Howard Lindzon:
On an A6-

Farbood Nivi:
No, no. This is like literally on laptops people were mining it back in the day.

Howard Lindzon:
But how? Like the processes were-

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, it's fine because there wasn't that much hash power. So, a normal processor could mine Bitcoin.

Howard Lindzon:
And what's hash power?

Farbood Nivi:
That's just the amount of computing power that's sort of backing the network.

Howard Lindzon:
And back then, it didn't take that much?

Farbood Nivi:
Back then, at the beginning, it was just done on laptops.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
Right? So, you're a crazy person if you're wasting your laptop, and your electricity-

Howard Lindzon:
And your time.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, because you had to download all the software. You'd not have to know how to do all that stuff. So, very few people-

Howard Lindzon:
But you had to believe it would be worth more.

Farbood Nivi:
You had to believe in the mission.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
If you believed it was going to be worth more, you were probably still kind of crazy. You just bought into the mission, right, thinking-

Howard Lindzon:
Got it. You need [crosstalk] five cents.

Farbood Nivi:
… thinking that Bitcoin was going to be $20,000 when it was 10 cents.

Howard Lindzon:
You didn't even think it was — you didn't think it would-

Farbood Nivi:
Nobody was running with that in their head. There was nobody who's running the math in their head of doing that.

Howard Lindzon:
Right, right.

Farbood Nivi:
That's why most those people became accidental billionaires, you know. Not like, "Oh, yeah, I knew Bitcoin was going to be $20,000 when I was mining it in 2010." You didn't, but you believed in the mission. You were just on the, — you know, getting into the total global economic collapse.

Howard Lindzon:
It's only [crosstalk].

Farbood Nivi:
Right, just after 2008. You know, the Times article about banks getting bailed out is in the original Bitcoin block, the genesis block. We printed on the cover of our coin mines-

Howard Lindzon:
Let me see. Let me see. Oh, the Times. That's a great idea.

Farbood Nivi:
And all this is the data from the first block. So, a large part of why Satoshi did that was as, sort of, a bit of a — you know, don't want a middle finger to the system, but like an alternative.

Howard Lindzon:
It was like you created it.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, right. So, you bought into that mission. And, you know, then, we got into a situation where people figured out that they could make specific circuits called A6 that only did Bitcoin calculations, basically, making it so that instead of like tons of people having it on their laptops, it now collapsed to very few people basically controlling all these hash power.

Howard Lindzon:
That was dangerous though.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, that can be dangerous.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
And so, it became — you know, theoretically you could go buy a little antminer that's an ASIC machine and, sort of, decentralize this again, but it's difficult. And so, I kind of, you know, lovingly kind of refer to what we built as the Gutenberg version of the miner.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, I call it the easy bake oven.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, the easy bake over.

Howard Lindzon:
I'm from a very different generation. So, we had these ovens that cost — the parents to pay for this hunk of steel that you'll plug in the wall-

Farbood Nivi:
They're probably $40, which is maybe a lot.

Howard Lindzon:
… and your sister would make two cakes in it, and then get bored of it. And I would melt GI Joe dolls in it. I'm 10 years old. And that was the easy bake oven.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
This is an easy bake oven. But when you plug it in a wall, instead of making a cake, it makes money.

Farbood Nivi:
It makes money. It makes you Bitcoin.

Howard Lindzon:
And what's funny is when — and I'm hopping ahead here. The biggest laugh is when people go, "What's the ROI why on this?" And I'm like, "What was the ROI on an easy bake oven that your parents spent $300.?"

Farbood Nivi:
Well, what was the ROI on mining Bitcoin on your laptop in 2010? You were just made fun of.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. And what's your ROI on learning how to invest and trade, when you're buying penny stocks, and you're getting tips from your friends, and you're blowing thousands of dollars of your money, which most people still do.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So I look at this as I'm trying to get educated. So, what made you think, okay, of all the crypto business I can get into, why mining?

Farbood Nivi:
So, to me, you know, there was a ton of people doing exchanges. There were a ton of people ICO'ing protocols all over the place. None of that really appealed to me. I like the core of the mission more than anything else, this decentralizing information and knowledge. Money is one of the most important types of information that we have.

Howard Lindzon:
So, Gutenburg.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. So, supporting that seemed to me like the most interesting place to spend my time.

When Coinmine was started and why?

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. So, when did you start Coinmine?

Farbood Nivi:
We started Coinmine just about 12 months ago.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. So, it was luck what happened, I just met Brian.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And the first thing he came out is, "You got to meet Farbood."

Farbood Nivi:
It was in New York actually.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, it was in New York. Brian Norgard, who's like almost a co-founder, I guess.

Farbood Nivi:
Basically, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And built the app for Coinmine. He says, "You got to," you know. And I'm like, "I was into crypto, but not — I was into it because of the exchange." I had an investment in eToro, and Robin Hood, and obviously running StockTwits. So, I just knew about it from a price, and trading, and, you know, hype, you know, because a lot of the CEOs we're talking about it.

Farbood Nivi:
Totally.

Howard Lindzon:
I don't really understand it. I still can't say I fully understand, I'm starting. You know, you're teaching me, and I'm understanding it more or more. But where are we at in the curve of guys like me kind of believe but like do want to put all our money into it? We still believe as bad as the government is that there's going to be a parallel, a best of parallel universe where governments are going to continue to print money and do stupid things, and mining and crypto should be interesting, but will never be currency per se. So-

Farbood Nivi:
Oh, I think it will. But one of the most important things I think Bitcoin and crypto can do is actually just get the existing players to change their behavior and get them to improve their behavior.

Howard Lindzon:
And have you seen that happen?

Farbood Nivi:
That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, you're seeing banks getting into crypto, depending on how they want to get into it. If they want to get into it in the way that inspires the same confidence and a mission-driven purpose that Bitcoin has, yes, they'll have to change their behaviors. Like if you can send $63 million to someone for $4.50 as a fee in ten minutes, now, the bank has to compete with that.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
Right?

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
So, maybe they can't charge you this much.

Howard Lindzon:
Plus it's different, like you don't know who the players are. I mean, it's even better than somebody-

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, in the-

Howard Lindzon:
It's not about just the money, it's about security and it's about-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
… and know who the other party is.

Farbood Nivi:
Every country is different. Some countries are more scandalous and more corrupt than others. Some countries, the people in charge completely destroy the economy on a regular basis. The average fiat currency I think lives about 25 or 35 years before it's gone. The oldest one ever is the British Pound. The US Dollar has lost 90% of its value in the past hundred years. We printed four times more money than we had in 2008 because of the financial crisis. Most of these people admit they don't even know what they're doing, and they're trying to — and we're trusting our entire while civilization.

Howard Lindzon:
Well, and we said it. Jamie Dimon, even if he really believed, he can't really make a bet because he'll be dead or out of power anyways.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, that's right.

Howard Lindzon:
So, he'll get-

Farbood Nivi:
He's been sentenced.

Howard Lindzon:
He has a risk of getting fired if he goes all in on crypto.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
And if the stock went to 70 from a hundred, people would start questioning, "What are you thinking?" even if it was the right thing-

Farbood Nivi:
I mean, the disruption never comes from the top down. It comes either from the bottom up or from the side.

Howard Lindzon:
So, that's why people — I think, that was my point is like if people are looking to Warren Buffett, they have no — even if they wanted to believe, like who cares if they believe or not because even if they wanted to believe and spend every last minute of their lives working on it, they're not going to see the benefits of it.

Farbood Nivi:
Marc Andreessen did a great interview pretty recently. And I guess there's this New York Times reporter that he swears the New York Times essentially hired just to trash the internet when the internet was coming out. And you look at these articles that they were writing about the internet being a fad, no one's going to use it, no business will be done on the internet was what the New York Times-

Howard Lindzon:
The Times.

Farbood Nivi:
… was proclaiming to everybody. So, if you were looking to the New York Times to, you know, predict the future of business, information, communication, it wasn't going to be the internet. Yeah. I think we're going to look back at crypto and Bitcoin in 10 years, 20 years, and it's going to be the same thing. You're going to read these articles about people calling it all a joke, and the whole world will be running on this system.

Howard Lindzon:
No one will care, they'll move on to the next thing. So, you go from an idea to building this beautiful product.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. Thanks.

Howard Lindzon:
So, we end up being, you know, disclosure, Social Leverage, our fund, is an investor, but, more importantly, that you're educating me on this. And I come out up from an old person who just wants to experiment. I've blown my brains out trading and doing stupid things. So, this, to me, isn't about the end unit cost to me. If I'm going to truly understand this, no different than trading a stock, I got to have a brokerage. I got to understand this. So, you decided you want to make a machine, and what happened next?

Farbood Nivi:
So, I started working on the hardware and, sort of, hacking together the software part of it. My Co-founder, Justin, who's a-

Howard Lindzon:
You can't play games on this, and you can't get online on this?

Farbood Nivi:
Not yet.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. But the point is, so, you had to go build a special machine.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. So, we built it. Built the-

Howard Lindzon:
So, you got your founder friend. You founder, your co-founder.

Farbood Nivi:
He's the designer-

Howard Lindzon:
Of Pebble?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, that's right. He designed Pebble Watch 2.

Howard Lindzon:
So, he almost got to go. Like at one point, Pebble was $750 million valuation.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, he's seen the other side, and then had it come crashing down on him.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, you dragged him.

Farbood Nivi:
He sort of dragged me. He's the one who came up with this.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
We were roommates in San Francisco, and I've been building computers since I was a kid. My first startup was in high school selling computers that I'd made. So-

Howard Lindzon:
You just go get the parts and make it?

Mining Ethereum

Farbood Nivi:
I decided to make a miner myself, horrible decision, didn't leave the house for five days, turned into a crazy person. Finally, I got the thing up and running. And it was just like-

Howard Lindzon:
You were mining a Ethereum or Bitcoin?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, I was mining a Ethereum.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
And it was this ugly gnarly thing that you wouldn't even know where to put it because it was disgusting.

Howard Lindzon:
Right.

Farbood Nivi:
And then he decided to come up with the idea of doing what he called the Apple of crypto devices. He's like, "What if Apple did something like this? What would it look like?" And my first response was, "I don't know if it's possible."

Howard Lindzon:
God bless him for his big vision.

Farbood Nivi:
For sure.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
And my response was, "I don't think it's possible," but I couldn't get it out of my head.

Howard Lindzon:
But you have this huge machine, and this is still, theoretically, a big machine.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
I couldn't get it out my head. And when it clicked for me was when I realized that we could control the device with an app. And, now, if you have an app-

Howard Lindzon:
That's what got me excited.

Farbood Nivi:
That's what gets me excited too because, now, when the whole experience is through an app, you can start doing really interesting things, you know. So, now, Coinmine is a combination of hardware, software, and services. So, you plug this into your wall, you connect it to your WiFi, you're pretty much done with it.

Howard Lindzon:
And it disappears.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
Like I have it in my house, and just-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
… other than noise, in the closet, it disappeared.

Farbood Nivi:
The rest of your experiences is in an app.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, the rest of my experience-

Farbood Nivi:
You open it up and you see your crypto go up a little bit.

Howard Lindzon:
And they'll interspersed the app into a small show.

Howard Lindzon:
Cool, yeah. And you'll see it scroll up. You'll have a little more crypto. So, that's going on. But then, soon you'll be able to open the app, and we'll have services available to you. So, if you've been making some a Ethereum, maybe you'll be able to work with compound finance that earns you interest on your Ethereum.

Howard Lindzon:
Yes. Instead of it just sitting in your account.

Farbood Nivi:
Instead of just sitting there. Same thing with Bitcoin, Blockify is doing, I think, 5%-6% EPR on your Bitcoin through them. Coinbase custody is offering staking as a service, where you can stake your Ethereum and, sort of, get a little bit of fees that you earn for staking your Ethereum. So, now, you're doing all of this through our app. You're turning your electricity — literally dollar cost averaging your electricity into crypto of your choice.

Howard Lindzon:
Yes. That's the big, what people don't understand. You're turning electricity into money.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And, obviously, that's-

Farbood Nivi:
And you can plug it in at the office, or the dorm, or your parents' place, you're not even covering the electricity cost.

Howard Lindzon:
Eventually, this becomes money, you're just carrying it with you, and just taking other people's electricity.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
And, eventually, we may just release the operating system, so that you can turn-

Howard Lindzon:
And you call that Mine?

Farbood Nivi:
We call it MineOS.

Howard Lindzon:
So, that's the big idea too. But that, we'll get into that. But, eventually, you see the hardware disappearing?

Hardware is commoditized

Farbood Nivi:
I mean, the hardware is — hardware is, ultimately, commoditized everywhere. So, the way you can do hardware is you have to go to the edge of the commoditization, right? And so, we've been lucky to do that in the sense that our hardware person, our founding hardware person is a native Chinese.

Howard Lindzon:
So, there's three of you.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. I mean, there's four of us. There's a software, sort of, lead as well. But our hardware guy has been building, you know, hardware in Shenzhen for years. And that's the only way you can really do hardware is to go to that edge of commoditization where someone really can't out-commoditize you.

Howard Lindzon:
And you did that. So, I remember your trips to Shenzhen.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, was that the first? He took you, didn't he?

Farbood Nivi:
I went, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's there most of the time. I went a little bit crazy when I went there. It was like a pretty eye-opening experience.

Howard Lindzon:
That was just last year.

Farbood Nivi:
It was just last year. And it was my first trip to China. And Shenzhen is, obviously, a super-modern city. And you walk around at night.

Howard Lindzon:
10 million people.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. And it feels like you're in the middle of New York. Everybody dresses like you'd do in New York, and they're hanging out, and all the young people are out. The city is beautiful. I actually wrote a whole twit storm on my flight back-

Howard Lindzon:
I remember, yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
… that sort of went off a little bit. And some people got angry with me because I think they thought I was excusing the Chinese government for everything its ever done of its entire history. But the point that I was making is we went into a bookstore. I think it was 10:00 p.m.. There's blockchain books everywhere, There's kids sitting on the ground just consuming these books in the bookstore. That's where they go to find dates and stuff. And I was just really sort of enamored and blown away by it all.

Howard Lindzon:
Eventually, we can argue forever. Some things move forward whether we like it or not.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
So, you go to Shenzhen, you scope out the machine, that's where these are made. They're designed in Los Angeles basically, and engineered in Los Angeles-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
… and put together in Los Angeles, but you still are partnered with China?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, to make all the casing.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, I have one, what are these going to cost?

Farbood Nivi:
So, right now, they retail for $799.

Howard Lindzon:
And you can go at coinmine.com.

Farbood Nivi:
coinmine.com.

The future of crypto

Howard Lindzon:
And tell me about the future. Like, let's talk about crypto in the future. The future, as I see it, is people are arguing over price. Where do you think, in terms of, you know, what's happening, interesting, do you care what the price is? You, as a founder, in this industry, where does it matter to you?

Farbood Nivi:
I think usage is more important than price in the end because what we're trying to do is not make a little — we're not trying to get 1% of the human population to make a bunch of money. We're trying to get 100% of human population using a whole new system.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
Right?

Howard Lindzon:
And so, this powers a whole new system. Let's get people to understand that. Why is it — we're maybe 1% global. What do you think?

Farbood Nivi:
My guess is it's under 5%. It's a few percent probably. In some places like Korea, it's enormous.

Howard Lindzon:
What's enormous?

Farbood Nivi:
In South Korea, I think 80% of millennials own some crypto.

Howard Lindzon:
Wow.

Farbood Nivi:
And in the United states-

Howard Lindzon:
And what did they use as a wallet, per se, or do you know?

Farbood Nivi:
Probably one of the many different exchanges there, but they're very techno-savvy, and they get it. It's easy for them.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. They don't have enough money that they care, per se.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, they got a couple hundred bucks on the blockchain-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
… or on crypto, they don't care.

8% of US own some crypto

Farbood Nivi:
But even in the United States, I think some 8% of the US own some crypto. And if you look at like bitcoin's price, for example, bitcoin's price dropped, you know, 80% from its all-time high.

Howard Lindzon:
And most all dropped 90% to 95%.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
The computing power that's backing them did not drop that much.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, that's the important thing.

Farbood Nivi:
That's a really important thing to keep in mind because those people are putting literal skin in the game, right, especially if they're technically underwater at the moment in terms of their electricity, your CapEx and OpEx, for what they're able to pull out. They didn't all closed shop. You'll see people with-

Howard Lindzon:
I have friends that closed shop.

Farbood Nivi:
… closed pictures of A6 thrown into the street. There's some of that.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. The same thing with bikes and scooters.

Farbood Nivi:
Seriously.

Howard Lindzon:
There's no different.

Farbood Nivi:
You'll see it in San Francisco there.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
They're just literally throwing it in the streets.

Howard Lindzon:
People, they're those like, "Wait. You're talking about mining when we're doing this shit with bikes, and scooters, and all these other things, just throw in the river.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right. So, we didn't see the computing power drop 80%.

Howard Lindzon:
Exactly.

Farbood Nivi:
It's basically what it was when it was at its all-time high. So, people are still bullish on — they're using it, right? They're making it happen. I think it would've been a real big problem if we've seen bitcoin's hash power drop 80% because that's where you're like, "Okay, this whole thing could just disappear overnight if that's if this is what's happening, if people are literally just shutting the whole thing down," but they didn't. And that's what's important. That's what says a lot more than price.

Howard Lindzon:
I mean, people didn't mind losing a little bit if they're mining on the edge on their own. They didn't care if they were losing a little bit. Like us, like we're not going to do the ROI even though the ROI should work. We're not thinking about that.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
We're just thinking about what could be.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. And we call it — We, also, you know, if you're talking in financial terms, you can kind of look at this as plug-and-play speculation.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
Right? Grin is a really popular cryptocurrency that's out.

Howard Lindzon:
In terms of new-

Farbood Nivi:
It's new. It just came out in January.

Howard Lindzon:
I mean, a new — is it software? It's a staked software.

Farbood Nivi:
No, it's like Bitcoin.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
It's proof of work.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
And, in fact, even Bitcoin maximalists don't talk too much trash about Grin because it's pretty solid. It's sort of pseudo anonymous like Bitcoin. We don't really know who the original founder was. It's proof of work. So, it's not this, sort of, just — it actually needs computing power to do it. And currently, it's worth $2.50 for a Grin.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
Now, if you're grin-bullish, you're not going to mine it and sell it at the end of the week for $2.50. You're going to mine it and hold it for two or three years because you think Grin's going to hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars. If it does, and you do, then this device will make you tens of thousands of dollars, but you have to believe that, and that has to happen.

Howard Lindzon:
And you have to do your own work.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It's no different than stocks, except you are the market.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
So, I was mining Grin at the beginning at like $5-$6.

Farbood Nivi:
Good. It didn't have a couple of issues. It's still young, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Then, I switched to Ethereum because I just got sick of seeing, you know. And I don't know what I'm doing other than, you know, open up the app.

Farbood Nivi:
Technically, Ethereum makes you-

Howard Lindzon:
And, literally, what's beautiful about the app is I can go Ethereum, Monero, Zcash, and Grin. I don't even know if you do Grin right now.

Farbood Nivi:
Right now, Grin's having some issues. So, we just pulled it down a little. It'll be back the next month or so.

Howard Lindzon:
For people who have Grin, it's still there.

Farbood Nivi:
It is still there, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, I switched to Ethereum, but, you know, that's why the app is so important. People need to see, and interact, and interface with their money. You can't just have a piece of hardware, and you go, "I'm going to forget the password." So, how do you take all that out of it? What's the other things that you're think about? Forgetting the hardware. So, now, I'm mining Ethereum.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
I mean even simpler.

Howard Lindzon:
So-

Launching Bitcoin mode

Farbood Nivi:
We're going to launch here in the very near future is what we call Bitcoin mode. And so, what the device will do is algorithmically-

Howard Lindzon:
Because, right now, you can't make Bitcoin on this?

Farbood Nivi:
Right now, it does not make you Bitcoin. So, when we launch Bitcoin mode, it will-

Howard Lindzon:
Let's move this off to the side.

Farbood Nivi:
When we launch Bitcoin mode, it will algorithmically mine whatever converts to Bitcoin the best.

Howard Lindzon:
So, that sweeps your convert.

Farbood Nivi:
And we just convert it.

Howard Lindzon:
So, it just sweeps your account.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right. And because everything in crypto is, sort of, you know, digital native, right, I can just have a software engineer do all of this. We don't need to do deals with banks, and we don't need to do business partnerships. It's all just done by one person sitting at a computer. So, you don't know what it will be powering. It could be powering Ethereum, Monero, Zcash, some other thing. It will algorithmically power whatever converts to Bitcoin. It will convert it to Bitcoin for you, keep it in your Bitcoin wallet. And then, again, for working with folks like Blockify, you'll be able to earn interest on that Bitcoin.

Farbood Nivi:
Or it also shifts with what's called a Bitcoin Lightning node, which is sort of these peer-to-peer payment systems. And if you fund your Lightning node with a little bit of Bitcoin, and other people send their payments through your channel, they call it, you'll earn a little bit of a fee. So, it'll earn you Bitcoin, and then earn new fees on your Bitcoin. And, again, if you're bullish on Bitcoin, you think it's going to $100,000 in five years, you're going to do great. If you think Bitcoin is going into the ground, then I recommend you have nothing to do with crypto at all. So, that's the real choice to make. It's not that complex. It's like decide if you think it's going to the moon in a few years, make your decision based on that.

Howard Lindzon:
And what makes eventually the price go up in the end?

Farbood Nivi:
Usage.

Howard Lindzon:
It's usage?

Farbood Nivi:
Usage.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, with usage, how does that make the price go up? So, explain that.

Farbood Nivi:
I mean, the bottom line is there's 21 million theoretical Bitcoins will ever be made, but don't even get close to that because millions of Bitcoin have already been lost forever.

Howard Lindzon:
So maybe there'll be 16 million.

Farbood Nivi:
16 to 17 million ever. Now, the cool thing about Bitcoin is each Bitcoin is divided into 100 million Satoshis.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. I think people don't understand this, you can buy fractions of them.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, and people, we kind of think that Satoshis will be the dollar of the future.

Howard Lindzon:
Bad marketing. What the fuck is Satoshi?

Farbood Nivi:
That's fair, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
You know, maybe dollar sounded dumb at the beginning and pennies but-

Farbood Nivi:
That's fine. Call them dollars. It doesn't-

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. I think that's part of the marketing and branding of others. Beyond Bitcoin, the branding has been terrible.

Farbood Nivi:
The branding has been terrible. Bitcoin is a great brand.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. But in each Bitcoin, there are hundreds of millions of smaller pieces of it.

Howard Lindzon:
Right.

Farbood Nivi:
So, it doesn't matter if a single Bitcoin is worth a billion dollars because each Satoshi, I could just send you a Satoshi, and that's going to be $10 or $1. So, it's fun, you know. So, it's really just a supply and demand thing. If you imagine like some chunk of the global economy running on Bitcoin, that's going to sort of determine the price of a Bitcoin, and it doesn't matter. You don't need to buy one Bitcoin. If one Bitcoin is $100,000, it doesn't matter, you can buy 10 Satoshis.

Howard Lindzon:
Yes. And so, usage drives it. And then, let's talk about transaction costs because there's just talk — you know, I really like Lightning Network.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Because that makes sense for me. You know, the one objection is, listen, in the United States, my kids use Venmo, my wife uses USA, I have Wells Fargo. I hate them, but like what's the point? Like I just leave a minimum amount of money in there, they do my monthly work and try not to give them any money in fees. And Visa and MasterCard. So, in the United States it's like, "What? I've got to learn something new?" So, how do you get over that hump?

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. Here's where I get a little vague, a little animated because this stuff gets me fired up. I mean, I think of the — so, in the US alone, there's, I think, $200 billion dollars a year or something stupid spent on, basically, credit card transaction fees. You're running a little coffee shop in San Francisco. So, that makes your cup of coffee, like, you know, $7 or something like that. You're paying 25 cents per transaction, plus another 3% on top of it.

Farbood Nivi:
So, to sell a $5 cup of coffee, you have to spend 50 cents in transaction fees. And if you're like a little coffee shop, all you're doing is selling $5 cups of coffees.

Howard Lindzon:
That's your margin, yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
That's 10% of your revenue is going to someone to process an electronic payment. Do you think it-

Howard Lindzon:
And it's a small transaction. It's a micro transaction.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
You trust everybody. Like, I mean-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right. They're going to lose $5, it'll be fine.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
So, to me, it's — like this is one of those, you know, the emperors running around naked, and none of us are noticing. We've all grown accustomed to a world where like 3.5% of your revenue just goes to someone for processing your payment. That's a business. That's a margin, but it's a literal business. People have businesses with smaller margins than that.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
So, this is just because we're stuck into this mode of thinking that this is like some law of nature that like to send a $5 transaction from one person to another, 10% of it has to go to a bank. That's just not the case. On the Lightning Network, you'll be able to do that $5 transaction, and it might cost you less than a penny.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. I mean, to me, no one's talking about it. I mean, the geeks are talking about it. So, I'm going to geek. I want to know what Lightning network-

Farbood Nivi:
They're starting though those squares. Going into its squares.

Howard Lindzon:
Oh, I understand.

Farbood Nivi:
Filing patents on Lightning Network hardware and things like that.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
You know, Jack just said he'll pay open source developers on Bitcoin out of their own Square's pocket just to have them there.

Howard Lindzon:
So, to me, it's like a highway system. You got to clog Bitcoin highway that's expensive.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It's crowded all the time.

Farbood Nivi:
It can be, yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Expensive, blah, blah, blah. And Lightning Network is just this on-ramp for smaller transactions.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, let's off some of the steam. The smaller transactions can happen on Lightning when it gets-

Howard Lindzon:
Because the guy who is running the coffee shop doesn't need to worry, and he's dealing in Satoshis in $3 and $5 transaction.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
He gets — I mean, he-

Farbood Nivi:
He can't wait 10 minutes for a transaction to clear for the person who's buying a cup of coffee.

Howard Lindzon:
Well, he's still on the hook if someone screws him with the debit card.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
So, he's going to be on the hook anyways. And if all the transactions are small, there's a certain amount of crime and, you know, fraud.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
But he can take it on himself if he's not paying or she the 3.5% or more that they're doing on every transaction.

Farbood Nivi:
And it'll be fine if it was 3.5%. When it's $5 and the transaction cost 25 cents plus 3.5%.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
You know, just the 25 cents are almost at 5% revenue.

Howard Lindzon:
So, what happens if Lightning Network doesn't take off?

Farbood Nivi:
There's-

Howard Lindzon:
That's risk? There's risk there?

Farbood Nivi:
There's risk there. There's other technologies that will come up.

How did Lightning start

Howard Lindzon:
But how did Lightning start?

Farbood Nivi:
That's a good question. I'm not 100% sure. So, Lightning is not necessarily limited to just Bitcoin.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
It's sort of a — it's a concept of running a, sort of, side chain that resolves back to some main chain and has certain attributes of its own. So, theoretically, you can do other blockchains using a Lightning methodology.

Howard Lindzon:
Yes. But, eventually, this would come with a Lightning note or you'll ship one to the people-

Farbood Nivi:
Every one of these ships this entire blockchain on. That's why it's kind of heavy. No, just kidding.

Howard Lindzon:
So, you turn that on. Automatically, you can start sweeping in this machine into Bitcoin?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Wow, okay. And so, MineOS, the big, big idea that you guys have it. And explain quickly that before we-

Farbood Nivi:
Sure. So, you know, the real brains behind this is the operating system. Like I said, hardware is ultimately commoditized. You can do well at hardware if you go to the edge of the commoditization, but you can do better with hardware and software. So, MineOS is something that we're planning on releasing in the future, basically, as a standalone device. We'll sell little thumb drives. We, sort of, liken it to the, you know, original square card readers, you know. You could buy those.

Howard Lindzon:
Or what Iomega was back in the day with storage.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It was just like a way to store and take it with you.

Farbood Nivi:
That's right, that's right.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
So, you can imagine our operating system being on a little thumb drive. And any old computer you have or a new computer, you just plug this thing in, and it turns your device into a coin mine. And, again, you're running it all through our app. So, you could have a-

Howard Lindzon:
10 machines, all that-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right. They don't need screens. They don't need keyboards. They don't need mice.

Howard Lindzon:
They just need a USB and power.

Farbood Nivi:
They just need a USB, and power, and some internet, and you're controlling it from your phone.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
So, now, you have your old desktops, your old laptops, maybe one day, your Playstation, you know, all just — it already works on these, like, sort of, at-home mining rigs that people make. They get seven or eight GPUs. We're already in beta testing, MineOS, on those. It's quite-

Howard Lindzon:
You're saying it's cool.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, yeah, it's really cool.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, if that works, the price comes down infinitely.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, that's right. I mean, the way we look at market size for us is it's purely a function of these sort of specs of the device, which is what it does, how much it costs, what it generates for you. So, as, you know, just stealing from Bezos better, faster, cheaper, right, as each Coinmine product becomes better, faster, and cheaper, more and more people will come on.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
And all we want to do is climb up that curve.

Howard Lindzon:
And so, people are going to be aware of these. You've only raised with seed round. So, you've gone a long way with a little bit of money. What's that like? What's it been like selling? Because I'm an easy sell.

Farbood Nivi:
It's the coolest thing ever. It was-

Howard Lindzon:
How? It's been different, or easy, or harder, or what?

Farbood Nivi:
It's way harder, way cooler. Again, it comes down to people. Our guy, Stephen, in Shenzhen, we wouldn't be able to do with him. Obviously, couldn't do without my co-founder, couldn't do without the software team.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah.

Farbood Nivi:
You know, we're a very small team, and every single-

Howard Lindzon:
10 people? 12 people?

Farbood Nivi:
Not even. We're eight people.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay, eight people.

Farbood Nivi:
The company wouldn't be here weren't any of those people being-

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, and you can see the experience. I mean, from the packaging to the care. I mean, there's so many things that can go wrong when you're making.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It's one thing to ship software and, you know, be like StockwTits where as long as the site's running, people are doing their thing.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
But to go to China, build this machine, raise the money, squeeze everything then, deal with customer experience because I'm like your-

Farbood Nivi:
They can deal with hard-

Howard Lindzon:
I'm your nightmare customer, right? You ship me one earlier, and I'm like everything breaks.

Farbood Nivi:
Like all the traveling-

Howard Lindzon:
Like for me, I break everything.

Farbood Nivi:
… investor problem that would cost in trying to get it resolved.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, I break everything. So, I've had one now for a few months, and it works great a worry. But, you know, if there's a bug, I'm going to find it because I don't know how to use anything. So, how do you deal with that on hte — how are you thinking through that?

Farbood Nivi:
That part's the easiest because you can just use software to troubleshoot with people, you know. And since, you know, our operating system is essentially a distributed network. So, to the extent that, you know, we can essentially go into your device and address any issue, it'll update itself overnight constantly, different platforms or, sorry, different protocols change – Monero, for example – forks every six months to kick the A6 off of it. You don't have to do anything. Your device will just automatically update.

Howard Lindzon:
But people have to trust you.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, the big leap of faith, they have to trust Coinmine as an entity.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Howard Lindzon:
And you and the team. And so-

Farbood Nivi:
But if you don't move your crypto out of our wall that we make for you and-

Howard Lindzon:
That's the cool part.

Farbood Nivi:
… put it on your own cold storage, and swallow it, and-

Howard Lindzon:
I think that's what people are missing. At some point, you're going to let people just move wherever they want.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
You know, you don't want to-

Farbood Nivi:
And when you're starting, there's not a lot. It's not yet — day one is not a million dollars' worth of crypto.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah, you have a couple of pennies the first day.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. So, you decide how much you want to trust us, and where you want to, you know, hold your crypto.

One wallet to rule them all?

Howard Lindzon:
And how do you see it happening? Well, is it going to be one wallet to rule them all, or people just going to — where do you see it in the-

Farbood Nivi:
I see it would be a lot of different wallets, just like people have a lot of different wallets, and a lot of different bank accounts, with a lot of different places. You might have small amounts in this one, larger amounts in a different one. You may have, you know, Coinbase Custody controlling, you know, your $20 million of crypto, but you have like a smaller entity that has, you know, $10,000 of your crypto in there that you're using on a regular basis because the money that you have with Coinbase, you know, is being put to use, and earning you fees, and earning you interests or something like that.

Howard Lindzon:
Is there anything that I'm missing about Coinmine? Because I know we've been talking for a while. Is there anything like on the-

Farbood Nivi:
We even revealed a few things that we haven't told others yet.

Howard Lindzon:
Yeah. So, if people really want to speculate, is there something out there that — so, we're talked about Lightning, we talked about Grin, we talked about staking staking as a service just right. Talk about software staking, what that means versus mining.

Farbood Nivi:
That's a — It's really early on that.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. So-

Farbood Nivi:
It's not happening much. There's a few protocols where it's working. that were words working. Tezos, for examples. It's out there, and it's working. It's another, sort of, forum of crypto economics, basically. With staking, you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to put up this amount of, you know, Tezos or Ethereum. And if I do something nefarious on the computing side, right, it's going to be taken away."

Farbood Nivi:
So, it, basically, gets people to behave correctly by saying, "If you try to mess with the system, then you'll lose what you staked," you know. And if you don't-

Howard Lindzon:
That's cool.

Farbood Nivi:
… you'll earn a little bit of a fee for what you're staking because people are going to use your computer, so you deserve to be paid for it.

Howard Lindzon:
It's a rent

Farbood Nivi:
So, you sort of put up this collateral. Yeah, exactly. Someone's using your computing power, and they pay you a little bit of that same type of-

Howard Lindzon:
How could that not work? I mean, in theory, that's going to be the way. So, pretty exciting. Now, we call this — I call it easy bake oven. You call it a plug-and-play speculation. Say, people want to put a hundred, what's today for an American? They got $5000 they want to speculate, what's the easiest way to get onboarded? If they don't want to buy a machine and do this themselves, they want to just put $1000 into Bitcoin, what's the easiest way today?

Farbood Nivi:
Coinbase.

Howard Lindzon:
Coinbase, huh?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, they become synonymous with just opening an account.

Farbood Nivi:
I think so. They've got a pretty good slick UI. It's pretty easy. I personally would trust them with that amount of money. I do trust them with more money.

Howard Lindzon:
And with passwords, any tricks because, you know, sequences? What should human beings do? Should be a phrase in their mind?

Farbood Nivi:
There is a-

Howard Lindzon:
Should be-

Farbood Nivi:
This is good. There's a couple of things. One, never use a phone number to secure accounts. You know, you can-

Howard Lindzon:
How do get off of Horizon screwing you or AT&T?

Farbood Nivi:
It's impossible.

Howard Lindzon:
It's impossible.

Farbood Nivi:
It's always going to be a vector of, you know, vulnerability, people porting numbers-

Howard Lindzon:
Bastards.

Farbood Nivi:
… and things like that.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
But that's why it's very important to use either, you know, an app like Ofi or Google Auth. Don't use your phone number to secure as your-

Howard Lindzon:
Right, I use Google Auth.

Farbood Nivi:
… two-factor authentication because people can port your number. So, that's one very important one.

Howard Lindzon:
But in terms of Coinbase, I'm going to ask you set up a password, a phrase-

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah, with a phrase.

Howard Lindzon:
And you're going to die, and you're going to forget, you know, that you used your mother's maiden name, or her birth date, or somebody whose birthday. Was there any tricks to like phrases like-

Farbood Nivi:
There's no real tricks-

Howard Lindzon:
Should it be a name, should it be a word, or should it be numbers?

Farbood Nivi:
Well, they're going to-.

Howard Lindzon:
Like if you think in terms of what the average person do, do you use numbers or word?

Farbood Nivi:
Well, any time you're making passwords, you want to think in terms of phrases, right, because you can remember a phrase, and it's essentially impossible for someone to hack a phrase. If your phrase is, you know, "I love chocolate ice cream forever," no computer is ever going to hack that.

Howard Lindzon:
Right, it's in your head.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And you're not going to forget.

Farbood Nivi:
And you're not going to forget it.

Howard Lindzon:
Well, I could. I'm at the age where I forget-

Farbood Nivi:
It's impossible.

Howard Lindzon:
So, I really have-

Farbood Nivi:
But, also, you should use a password manager.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. And what's the best password manager?

Farbood Nivi:
I mean, there's a bunch of them. I like 1Password. They're pretty good.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay. These are important things.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
So, to get started, Coinbase, $1000. If you want to speculate, the easiest way I've ever seen is what you guys are building.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
It's phenomenal.

Farbood Nivi:
Plug it in.

Howard Lindzon:
And just the apps, joy. And we'll show some demos of the app. The 1Password, if you're going to do any computing, 1Password, okay, and just do that. And then, for your money, I think a phrase matters, you know.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Obviously-

Farbood Nivi:
And no phone numbers

Howard Lindzon:
No phone number or birthdays. I love chocolate ice cream. To who do you have to share that with? Your wife?

Farbood Nivi:
Nobody.

Howard Lindzon:
Meaning it dies with you and that's it?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. You may want to trust your wife or, you know, if you have a custody solution out there, if it's a lot of money.

Howard Lindzon:
But first tender day, do you give out your favorite-

Farbood Nivi:
No, probably not.

Howard Lindzon:
Okay.

Farbood Nivi:
There's also-

Howard Lindzon:
Because I've done that.

Farbood Nivi:
There's also what they call multi-sig solutions where it's, essentially you could set something up where five people have different pieces of a password, essentially.

Howard Lindzon:
Oh my God. That's how the machines do it?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
And to-

Farbood Nivi:
That's how critical it works-

Howard Lindzon:
But to clear it, then you can set the rules up that any three of them can cause something to happen. So-

Howard Lindzon:
So, I think for the average person, a phrase-

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
… that means something. It could be a movie phrase. It could be from a TV show. It could be-

Farbood Nivi:
Don't use the same password over and over. Use phrases. Use 1Password or a similar solution.

Howard Lindzon:
But don't let that be the reason you don't do this. Is that stupid?

Farbood Nivi:
No, no. I mean-

Howard Lindzon:
Like people are telling you it's going to get hacked or stolen.

Farbood Nivi:
Start with-

Howard Lindzon:
Only you are in control of that.

Farbood Nivi:
Only start with what you're willing to lose.

Howard Lindzon:
Yes. So, I think, you know, great advice. Thanks, man.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Howard Lindzon:
Hopefully, everybody learned a little bit from this first episode of Lindzanity, and they can check back in 10 years with Bitcoin at 5000 today.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah. And see how we did.

Howard Lindzon:
See how we did.

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
I'm pretty happy about Apple. I mean, the first week of Wall Street, we did Apple. I just knew in my mind. I know in my mind today that, yeah, Bitcoin could drop to 1000 or 500. But, you know, risk reward, when I think about the big — that it should be dead already. If Bitcoin is going to be zero, why isn't it zero yet?

Farbood Nivi:
Yeah.

Howard Lindzon:
Because it should be. Everybody's given up on-

Bitcoin has more computing power behind it than any other computing system in human history

Farbood Nivi:
It a lot of computing power keeping it alive. It has more computing power behind it than any other computing system in human history.

Howard Lindzon:
Well, and I look at it as the brand of Bitcoin. You can go to any corner of the earth and say Bitcoin-

Farbood Nivi:
That's right.

Howard Lindzon:
… and people are like — it's not the first time they've heard of the word. They may not only even understand what it means-

Farbood Nivi:
Both of the TSA employees that were checking out my Coinmine-

Howard Lindzon:
Oh, that's a good start.

Farbood Nivi:
… you know, they were like, "Oh, is that a miner?" I'm like, "Yeah." And as I was walking away, the lady said, "Good luck."

Howard Lindzon:
So, people still think it's a bit — that's the opportunity is people still think there's luck involved, et cetera, but it's really a little bit of-

Farbood Nivi:
When you really get to understand Bitcoin, you'll see that it's the most sound money that's ever existed, even on gold.

Howard Lindzon:
All right. We'll end it on that. Thanks. man.

Farbood Nivi:
Thanks.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT: Tiger Woods Winning Interview – Masters 2019 | Convert video-to-text with the best AI technology by Sonix.ai

Moderator:
Tiger, welcome back. Or should I say more appropriately, welcome home?

Tiger Woods:
Yeah. Just unreal. To be honest with you, just the whole tournament has meant so much to me over the years. Coming here in '95 for the first time and to play as an amateur, winning in '97, and then come full circle, 22 years later, we will do it again.

Tiger Woods:
And this is the way it all transpired today. There were so many different scenarios that could have transpired on that back nine. There are so many guys who had a chance to win. Leaderboard was absolutely packed, and everyone was playing well. So, you could have had more drama than what we all had out there. And, now, I know why I'm balding. This stuff is hard.

Tiger Woods:
Yeah. Just to come back here, and then to play as well as I did, and did all the things, all little things well this week, and to do it here. This has meant so much to me and my family, this tournament, and to have everyone here, It's something I'll never, ever forget.

Moderator:
This is clearly one of those monumental days in all of sport when people all around the world will say, "Where were you when Tiger won his fifth green jacket in 2019?"

Tiger Woods:
I know where I was. Yeah, I had a little one-foot tap-in. So, it hasn't sunk in at all. I mean, this is one of those things, It's going to take a little bit of time, and I'm just fresh off of just winning this tournament, and I just can't wait to see how it all unfolded from the TV perspective. I know I was grinding hard trying to chase Francesco today. And then, all of a sudden, the leaderboard flipped, and there were a bunch of guys up there who had a chance to win, and I hit some of the best shots on that back nine today. You know, I felt like I just flushed it coming home, which was — well, it's a nice feeling.

Moderator:
Questions, Jim?

Jim:
Tiger, congratulations. When you walked off the green, and you saw your mom and your children, did you flash back to your dad in the initial win?

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, absolutely. My dad shouldn't have come in '97. I mean, he had heart complications and wasn't supposed to fly, but he flew, and came, and gave me putting lesson on Wednesday night, and the rest is history. My dad's no longer here, but my mom's here, 22 years later, and I happen win the tournament. And then, to have both Sam and Charlie here.

Tiger Woods:
They were there at the British Open last year when I had the lead on that back nine, and I made a few mistakes, and cost myself a chance to win the Open Title. I wasn't going to let that happen to them twice. And so, for them to see what it's like to have their dad win a major championship, I hope that's something they'll never forget.

Moderator:
Ted?

Ted:
Tiger, congratulations. And comeback is going to be the word we're always going to think about here. So, how would you describe that for yourself? And also the doubts, since some of us who saw you at Torrey 11 years ago, it's a long time now, and the doubts that you could ever do this again.

Tiger Woods:
Well, I had serious doubts after what transpired a couple years ago. I could barely walk. I couldn't sit, I couldn't lay down, I really couldn't do much of anything. Luckily, I had the procedure on my back, which gave me a chance at having a normal life. But then, all of a sudden, I realized I could actually swing a golf club again. And so, if I could somehow piece this together and that I still had the hands to do it. The body is not the same as it was, you know, a long time ago, but I still have good hands.

Tiger Woods:
And so, that certainly has helped, and I've pieced it together, and next thing, you know, if you look at it, my first 14 wins in majors were always — I had the lead in every one of them or tied for the lead. To have the opportunity to come back like this, it is probably one of the biggest wins I've ever had for sure because of it.

Moderator:
Gary?

Gary:
Tiger, I don't know if you know, but you broke the streak. I had mentioned to you about winners who were in the top 10 the last 13 years. You were tied for 11th after the first day. So, you broke the streak, that you were the last one to do so.

Tiger Woods:
Congratulations to me.

Gary:
Yes. But you mentioned about this shot you hit coming in. After the tee shot on 11, was there anything that you relied on? Tee shot on 12, drive on 13, 14, 15, tee shot on 16, tee shot on 17 and 18. Was there anything specific that you leaned on?

Tiger Woods:
No, nothing specific because I felt like that was probably the strongest part of my game all week was driving the golf ball. I've been working on trying to shape the golf ball both ways coming into this event. And, you know, I was able to do that.

Tiger Woods:
And, yeah, the tee shot at 11 was awful. You know, I leaned on it, trying to hit it, trying to flight it a little bit ,and it got stuck underneath there. I had a shot. And I just kept saying, if I just sneak out of here with the par, we got a lot of golf left. And we have two par 5s, gettable pin at 14, another one at 17, and anything could happen up at 18.

Tiger Woods:
And so, I just said, just keep plodding along. And then, next you know, I see Brooksy make a mistake at 12. Francesco made a mistake at 12. Patrick was making a run up ahead. DJ was making a run. I mean, Xander was making a run. There were so many different scenarios that evolved. And I was looking at the board come off of 13 green. And then, there's six, seven guys with a chance to win this tournament.

Tiger Woods:
But I just kept telling myself, I have — well, along with Francesco, we have the most holes to play. So, whatever they do, I'll just birdie the same holes. Then, it's a moot point. And as you know, I birdied 13, I birdied 15 with two good shots in there, and almost whooped it at 16.

Tiger Woods:
So, that gave me the cush. And I kept telling myself on 17, on that tee shot, I said, "I've been in this position before." I had a two shot-lay with DiMarco and bogey, bogey. Let's go ahead and pipe this ball right down the middle. Let's hit the little flat squeezer out there, and I did, I just smoked it. I made par there.

Tiger Woods:
And then, 18, I said, "Hey, it's not over yet." Arnold lost the tournament, lost the hole with a double. So, let's just keep the hammer down. Brooksy could still make birdie up 18, and I can make bogey with. And the next thing, we're in a playoffs. So, it gets this ball in play. And I did. And I saw him tap out for par, and that gave me the cush knowing that I could make bogey.

Tiger Woods:
And I had a little bit of mud on my golf ball playing that shot, and I said, "Just make sure I overcut this thing. Don't undercut it. Overcut it to the right." And I did. I whiffed it, and hit it over to the right, and I was able to put that ball on the green and two-putt.

Moderator:
Kara.

Kara:
Tiger, you hadn't had the lead here on a Sunday since you won in 2005. When you had it today, was it like getting back on a bike? It was like you had never gotten off, or what was that like? What was your comfort level?

Tiger Woods:
It didn't feel unfamiliar because I had the lead at the Open Championship. So, that was just two majors ago. So, now, that would be something different if I didn't have the lead from '05 to now, but, you know, it was just last year in July that I had the lead.

Tiger Woods:
And so, I just kept saying, "I've been here. It wasn't that long ago. Just go ahead, and just keep playing the game, keep plodding along, and keep doing all the little things correctly. You can't miss the ball in the correct spots. Be committed to it, even if the winds puffing up and down. Be committed to the shot, and the shot shape," and I was.

Moderator:
Jeff.

Jeff:
Tiger, you appeared to exude extreme calm. Is that something you are sensing and aware of? And. also, is that something attributable to the gum, and why gum?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I'm chomping on this gum because I usually get so hungry, I keep eating so much. And it curbs my appetite a little bit, which is nice. Most of time, most of the issues I have at tournaments, I lose so much weight as you all know. And so, I'm aware if that's what it is. But what was there the question?

Jeff:
Calmness

Tiger Woods:
Calmness?

Jeff:
More than normal. did you just feel it?.

Tiger Woods:
Well, I just felt so prepared coming into this event. This year, my finishes probably don't really reflect it, but I was starting to shape the golf ball the way that I know I can, which I needed for this week. And prep for the Masters starts six months ago. And so, just trying to make sure that I get ready to peak for this one week, and I did, and everything came together this week, which is great. And I kept all the little things correctly. I missed it up on the correct spots time, and time, and time again. And if I was out of position, so be it. Take my bogey and move on. And no doubles this week. And just kept — as I said, I just kept plodding along.

Moderator:
Aman.

Aman:
Since your kids are growing up now, do they have a deeper appreciation of the work that you do? And second is, Joey and you had a conversation after five, Just some insight into that.

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, I think the kids are starting to understand how much this game means to me and some of the things I've done in the game prior to this comeback. They only knew that golf caused me a lot of pain. If I tried to swing a club, I would end up on the ground. And I struggled for years. And that's basically all all they remember. Luckily that I've had the procedure where that's no longer the case, and I can do this again. And so, you know, we're creating new memories for them, and it's just very special.

Tiger Woods:
The talk that Joey and I had off the five, I think he just listened. I was saying some things I can't really repeat here. And then, I went into the restroom and proceeded to say the same things over and over to myself. And then, I came out and I felt a lot better.

Moderator:
Robert.

Robert:
Tiger, congratulations. 1 through 14, I know that all majors are special to you, but one you usually have your focus on because of what it meant to you with your dad, and 14, obviously, had significance too with Torrey Pines. Where do you put this one?

Tiger Woods:
I mean, it's got to be right up there, right, with all the things that I've battled through and just was able to be lucky enough and fortunate enough to be able to do this again. It's ironic that I'm given a chance to play golf again. And lo and behold, I won a tournament coming from behind, which I had not done for the first 14. So, it's just amazing.

Moderator:
Jessie.

Jessie:
Tiger, my generation, we kids who grew up in the late '70s, the '80s, the '90s had to hear from our fathers about how great the 1986 Masters was with Jack Nicklaus in the crowds. Given what you remember from that tournament, that final round, maybe watching it on TV as a kid, and now being in this arena, does this Masters enter into that conversation as a possible rivalry as to the best Masters final round?

Tiger Woods:
I don't know if it is or not, but I can tell you that '86 meant a lot to me because that was the first memory that I have of the Masters. Seeing Jack celebrate a 4-iron in the green on 15, when he did that. I mean, I had never seen anyone celebrate an iron shot into green before. And so, that's the moment that stuck with me.

Tiger Woods:
And then, I remember seeing him hug Jackie there at 18, how special that was. And then, I remember, obviously, Seve made a mistake at 15, and Greg made a mistake at 18. So, the '86, and he was 46 years old. I'm 43. We had little spells in between. I mean, he had, what, six years or so, I think, where he didn't win a major championship. And for me, it was 11 years. So, in either case, and I think that's what everyone else is — that's for them to decide.

Tiger Woods:
It's special to me. It's special to my friends and family. And I think that everyone out here who is here got a chance to witness something that was amazing and just the competitive environment. I mean, everyone was playing well at the same time. And it could have gone so many different ways. I just happened to hang in there and persevere.

Moderator:
John.

John:
Tiger, for those of us watching, 12 seemed to be the seminal moment. When Francesco's ball went in the water, did it change anything you were thinking? Was it always going to be over the bunker, center of the green?

Tiger Woods:
That's all I was concentrating on. I had 47 over the first tongue in the bunker there. And so, my number was hitting at 50 and just be committed to hitting at 50. There's a reason why. I saw Brooksy, he ended up short. Poults ended up short as well. And so, when I was up on there on that tee box, and it was about my turn to go, I could feel that wind puff up a little bit, and it had been something. I mean, Brooksy is stronger than I am, and he fights it better than I do. And so, I'm sure he hit 9-iron, and didn't make it. And so, I knew my 9-iron couldn't cover the flag. So, I had to play left. And I said, "Just be committed. Hit it over that tongue in that bunker. Let's get out of here, and let's go handle the par 5s," and I did. Yeah, the mistake that Francesco made there led a lot of guys back into the tournament, myself included.

Moderator:
Kirk.

Kirk:
Tiger, do you think Jack should be worried now as far as the 18 majors?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I don't know if he's worried or not. I'm sure he's home in West Palm just chilling and watching.

Kirk:
Could you describe the impact you think you've had on your sport?

Tiger Woods:
I think that I've driven a lot more youths to the game. A lot of the guys that are especially on the tour now are training. They're getting bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic. They are recovering better. They are hitting the ball prodigious distances. And a little bit of that is probably a tribute to what I did. When I first turned pro, I was the only one in the gym, except for Vijay. And so, it was just basically he and I for years. And, now, everyone trains. Everyone works on their bodies, besides their game. And even Phil's working out. So, things have come a long way.

Moderator:
Joy.

Joy:
Tiger, I think I have my own personal inspiring story in sports today, but I just wanted to know what is yours? What is your most inspiring story in sport?

Tiger Woods:
Mine? I don't know. That's a great question. There's so many. I don't have one that really truly stands out, to be honest with you. Sorry.

Moderator:
Francisco.

Francisco:
Hi, Tiger. Of all the things that you've been through during the last years was struggling with your body issues. Is there any specific moment that has come to your mind during the last few hours?

Tiger Woods:
The last couple hours?

Francisco:
Yeah. Since you tapped the putt on 18. Is there any moment that has come to your mind?

Tiger Woods:
Not really one moment, no. I can tell you one thing, I'm pretty sore right know. I've definitely let it all go today, and I ramped up the speed. And I'm starting to have a little bit of pop on the bat out there, which was good to see. I can promise you one thing. I'm not going to hit a golf ball tomorrow.

Moderator:
Ian.

Ian:
Yeah, Tiger, the last time you won here, you said afterward that it meant a lot to you because of your father's health at the time. Were there moments today where you thought of him, his memory? Were you inspired by him? Was there a shot out there that you stood over the ball, and thought of him, and some of the lessons he laid down?

Tiger Woods:
The only thing I thought about was on a couple of the putts, like at 12, 13, coming down the hill, and especially the one on 9 was just putt to the picture. That's it. Just putt to the picture. That's what he always taught me to do, and that's what I just kept telling myself out there, just putt to the picture.

Moderator:
Brian.

Brian:
Tiger, was there — over here.

Tiger Woods:
Yeah.

Brian:
Was there a moment, even maybe early in the week before the tournament where you felt particularly good about your — sort of comfortable or so forth about your chances or maybe a shot early in the tournament that felt that way?

Tiger Woods:
As I said, the shots that I was playing throughout this year, or some of the shots that I was going to need for this week, and they were starting to come around. And at the Match Play, I hit a couple really nice draws out there off the tee. And I was starting to feel comfortable turning it from right to left. And I just felt that I'm getting comfortable with it. And pretty soon, I was starting to let it go. I'll start to let the speed go, and start to let it increase, and I did this week. And I started to put it out there. And every now and again, I dropped the tee down and just hit a little squeeze or cut out there.

Tiger Woods:
But even those, I didn't spin it too much, even those would go a little bit further. My swing was getting a little bit better. And more so than any other golf course that we play, you have to miss the golf on the correct spots. And so, I just kept doing that, time and time again. And if I didn't have a good look at a putt, I was going to lag it up there and move on. And I missed a few shorties out there for birdie this week, but I said, "Hey, you know what, that's fine. Everyone else is going to do it as well. Just keep missing the golf in the correct spots." And I did.

Moderator:
Luis.

Luis:
Tiger, you told us on Tuesday that you didn't need to win, but you really wanted to. And you also said that the win at East Lake confirmed that you could still win. What does this win confirm for you?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I can win majors now. The win at East Lake was a big confidence-booster for me because I had come close last year a couple times, but I still need to cross the finish line. And I just didn't quite do it. I didn't do it at Tampa. I didn't do it at The Open Championship. I was little better at the PGA, but, still, I didn't win.

Tiger Woods:
And so, East Lake was a big step for me confirming that I could still win out here and against the best players because East Lake, obviously, it's the hottest 30 guys for the year. And to be able to do that against Rory and Rosey there, it gave me a lot of confidence going into this year. And I said, I want to just keep building on it, and let's try to get the mind and body peaking towards Augusta.

Tiger Woods:
So, my last three major championships have been pretty good. And so, that in itself gives me a lot of confidence going down the road.

Moderator:
Chris.

Chris:
Tiger, I just wondered after you hit the first putt on 18, I don't want to call a quiet moment, but you're standing off to the side while Francesco and Tony putted out. What's going through your mind at that moment?

Tiger Woods:
It's a new green. That damn thing should have broke. I mean, I hit a pure putt, you know. I remember that putt breaking, and it just didn't break. No, but I was saying, "It's not over yet, I still got to make this putt. Come on. Just keep it together. Keep focused. Go ahead and make sure that I commit to, even if it's a one-and-half-foot putt. Commit." And I did, and knocked it in. And God knows what I did after that.

Moderator:
Ann.

Ann:
Congratulations, Tiger.

Tiger Woods:
Thank you.

Ann:
You have such a huge impact on so many people. Do you have any messaging after this comeback and persevering?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I was very fortunate to be given another chance to do something that I love to do. But more importantly, I've been able to participate in my kids' lives in a way that I couldn't do for a number of years. And so, they are a lot more active than I am, and I'm a little competitive myself. And so, I try and keep up. And I tried to do that for a number of years, and I just couldn't do it.

Tiger Woods:
But now, I'm starting to do it and starting to build. I play with them and then do things in their sports. And it's something that I had always missed because I always felt I could do pretty much anything physically. But then, for a while there I just couldn't even walk. So, now, I'm able to play golf again and do it at an elite level again, which is something that I'm just very blessed to be able to have that opportunity again.

Moderator:
Steve.

Steve:
Tiger, congratulations. I want to know, sort of, a follow up to Ann's question, people have different struggles in their lives. They have personal struggles, physical struggles, and you've overcome these things. What message might you say to people who are struggling? What encouragement would you give them not to give up, to say that you can possibly overcome these issues?

Tiger Woods:
Well, you never give up. That's a given. You always fight. I mean, just giving up is never in the equation. Granted, pushing and being competitive has got me into this position, but it's also what got me out of it. And so, I've always had a pretty good work ethic throughout my career and throughout my life. And I just had to change the work ethic a bit and work on some different things. And so, I focused on that and just keep fighting. That's just part of the deal. We wake up every morning, and there's always challenges in front of us, and keep fighting, and keep getting through.

Moderator:
Scott.

Scott:
Tiger, I'm curious what did Sam and Charlie say to you after it was over? And what have they maybe said to you over the past couple of years that perhaps motivated you?

Tiger Woods:
I don't think we heard — I definitely didn't hear them, because I was screaming. And I think everyone else was too. So, I think that — I think — I hope. I hope they're proud of me. Hope they're proud of their dad. And so, I've been very blessed to have two great kids, and just to have them here to see this, and witness this. I tried and described — they've never been to Augusta National. So, try and describe the slopes, and things, and everything. And I said, "This is a pretty unique event. This is very special. And I really hope you guys are able to come." And so, it all worked out and here they are.

Moderator:
Justin.

Justin:
Congratulations, Tiger.

Tiger Woods:
Thank you.

Justin:
I know you've touched on it a little bit, but it seems like your smile got bigger as the week went on. Can you just talk about how happy you were to be out there, and competing, and then obviously to be able to win?

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, I mean, I had a pretty good feeling going into this week that I was going to be able to contend in this event. I really felt that I was starting to shape the golf ball and my putting was starting to come around. My short game's been there. I know that I made a few mistakes last couple tournaments, but I just felt like it was there. My hands were good.

Tiger Woods:
And I just — as I kept alluding to you earlier is that I just kept telling myself to miss the ball in the correct spots. And I did time and time again. I was very disciplined in what I was doing out there. Even when yesterday, guys were shooting 64 left and right, I was just going around, just handle your business, work going up the board. We still got a lot of golf, a lot of holes to play, and just make sure that I'm there in the end.

Tiger Woods:
So, I can shoot myself out of the tournament, but just make sure that I keep myself in the event. There's so many different things that can happen on the back nine on Sunday. We all know that, and it played itself out again. There are so many different scenarios that could have happened after 12th. It could have gone so many different ways, and I just keep saying, "Just keep hanging in there until the last couple holes, and we'll see where we are. Just keep hanging in there, and birdieing 15 and 16." It gave me a nice little cush with the last two holes to play, but, still, there's different scenarios that could have happened there as well.

Moderator:
Ignacio.

Ignacio:
Tiger, does this victory change your playing schedule for the year?

Tiger Woods:
Nope. Want me to elaborate? As I said, I'm not going to play as much as I did last year. I played a little bit too much last year because I kept trying to qualify for a World Golf Championships and events in the Playoffs. And so, the playing schedule doesn't change. I'm going to play a bit less than I did last year. And again, just play in the tournaments I do play in. I'll be fully invested and committed to playing and trying to win.

Moderator:
Jeff.

Jeff:
You looked at some of the shots you played today, like the putt from the back of nine or the smart shot to hit it well left of the pin at 12. Do you feel your biggest asset on the grounds here is experience? Or if not, what is?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I think that if — and it helps being around here and playing this golf course so many different times. And, unfortunately, I've hit the ball in some weird spots like nine being one of them. I've been up there before, and I hadn't been that centered to that flag, center of the green. I've been more on the right side of the green, so I had a little better angle. But I've had a very similar putt to that speed-wise. So, I make sure I if I make a mistake on that putt, make the mistake a little bit short upon the middle ridge. Don't make the mistake of hitting too hard and have the gold in front of the green.

Tiger Woods:
I can walk away with the three-putt and still be in the tournament. Who knows, I can make one down from the middle shelf, who knows, but just don't make the mistake long and and make six. I know I have a putt, and I'm putting for birdie, but just don't make six here. And I think it's just the little things of discipline like that is what it takes to win on this golf course.

Tiger Woods:
I mean, you look at Bernie, he's 61, made the cut, and it was on the par. I mean, it goes to show you, if you understand how to play this golf course, you can be pretty much anyone because it's about how to play.

Moderator:
Gentleman in the back, sitting right at the back. Yes, sir, you.

Male:
Tiger, At the players you made the point that Jack's record of 18 majors wasn't one of those bullet points on the poster that you were chasing all your life. Now that you're one closer at 15, is that more of a focus? Is that a bigger goal now?

Tiger Woods:
I really haven't thought about that yet. I'm sure that I'll probably think of it going down the road. Maybe, maybe not. But right now, it's a little soon, and I'm just enjoying 15.

Moderator:
Brian.

Brian:
Tiger, you're talking about shaping shots and everything coming together. You used to rate your game, A, B, B+. Can you rate where your game is right now?

Tiger Woods:
I'm not going to do that, but I will tell you this, that it's the best I've felt with the driver in years. I was able to hit the golf ball both ways this week. And some of the shots I hit down 13, turn it around the corner. A couple of drives down two. Some of the bombs I hit down 3. And then, just hit little squeezers out there down the 7. You saw it today on on 15 and 17, and even on 18, just little trap-squeezers out there as well. So, I was able to hit both ends of the spectrum, low cuts and high draws. And that's not easy to do. So, I just really felt that I had that much control in my long game, and it paid off.

Moderator:
Mike, do you have a question? Next, Jim.

Mike:
Tiger, to be able to do this in front of your kids, I know a lot of people didn't think that you would obviously be here in this spot here on Sunday afternoon. But now to be able to give your children this memory what does that mean to you?

Tiger Woods:
It means the world to me. Their love and their support is — I just can't say enough how much that meant to me and throughout my struggles there when I really had a hard time just moving around. And just their infectiousness of happiness, that's — I was going through a tough time physically, I mean, there was a lot of times when I really could move. And so, that in itself is difficult, but just to have them there. And then, now, to have them see their Pops win, just like my Pops saw me win here. it's pretty special.

Moderator:
Jim.

Jim:
Tiger, how much more of a joyous experience is this? And, also, what does age mean anymore for a professional athlete. We've had a 41-year-old Super Bowl winner, and now you. Does age, has it been expanded and extended, or is it less relevant?

Tiger Woods:
Well, I think it's training and nutrition. Exercise programs have changed. They have progressed. The treatment protocols have changed. And the guys are able to take care of their bodies for longer period time. We know how important it is to eat perfectly and to train and also the recovery tactics that you have to employ, especially as you get older. As we get older, it sucks hopping in those ice baths, but it's just part of the deal.

Tiger Woods:
But I just think that athletes, because of the understanding of the general science of sports performance has allowed athletes to push their primes into much later stages. And then, also, you also have to be lucky too. You just can't have those big major injuries in some of sport, especially contact sports. My sport is different. I can play at a much longer period of time. I don't have to hit the ball 340 yards. I can still plod my way on the golf course.

Tiger Woods:
And so, we saw it here with Jack in '98. He had a chance to win. We saw Tom Watson at '59 had on his putter. So, in this sport, we're able to play a much longer period of time, and you're just seeing guys that are taking care of their bodies a lot better and able to play longer.

Moderator:
Fernando.

Fernando:
Tiger, congratulations-

Tiger Woods:
Thank you.

Fernando:
… on the win. This week was a very special week too for Latin American golf. It was the first time that Latin American Amateur Championship made the cut. So just a few thoughts about the amateur players that were here this week?

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, I just think the game is growing. I mean, before that, I think you had Joaquin playing well. The game of golf is growing. It's, now, a global sport. We're getting players from all over the world. And they're younger, they're better, and they're hungry to play. It's just a matter of them working their way up with opportunities. And so, we're starting to see the game has expanded. It's not just your general golf countries historically, whether it's United States, or the UK, or Australia, or South Africa, or even Japan. Now, it's truly a global sport, and you're seeing kids that are better younger at a much earlier age than you've ever seen before.

Moderator:
Joe. We're done in a bit, Tiger.

Joe:
First, congrats, Tiger. You've had such an influence on the younger golfers. And talking to Brooks outside, not too long ago, he said, "Tiger's back." Do you feel like you're back physically, mentally, and everything that it takes to win at this level?

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, I do, because I just did it. I was able to play some of my best golf over the last, basically, I think the last three days. And the first day was a little bit here and there, but the last three days, I really played well.

Tiger Woods:
I'm going to keep saying this, but there are so many different scenarios that could have happened on that back nine. And I've been in that spot before. I've been in a position where I've won, and I've been in a position where I've lost. But I just kept telling myself that at least I'm in that position. Let's go ahead, and we have a lot of holes to play. And I was able to handle the heat down the stretch and pull off some of my best shots.

Moderator:
Two more questions. Maximo.

Maximo:
This congratulation came from Italy, Tiger. And we are waiting for you if it's okay. We're waiting for you in Italy for three years to go to the Ryder Cup, the historic Ryder Cup in Rome. So, with this kind of shape you are showing, you're planning to come as a player and fight again maybe Francesco Molinari, or as a captain or vice captain? Last time you were in Italy someone, a cameraman, broke your teeth, I think.

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, my tooth, yeah. I had a great smile after that one.

Maximo:
Waiting to see you playing.

Tiger Woods:
Well. I'm a captain this year. So, I'm hoping to make my own team. We'll see what happens when the tournament and the selection process goes to Italy. That's a long way to go. I mean, the points don't even start for a little bit. So, we'll see what happens from now and then.

Moderator:
Final question. Bob.

Bob:
Tiger, you got to play in the final round with one of your teammates from the Ryder Cup, Tony Finau. Tell us a little bit about what you think about his game?

Tiger Woods:
I mean, God, he hits it long. I mean, he makes a little half-swing, and still hits the ball out there 310, 320 in the air. It's just remarkable. And it helps that your ankles is not dislocated either. So, he able to walk around there and hit good shot. But Tony, he's made some amazing leaps in the last couple of years. He's really starting to piece together a game that's going to contend week-in and week-out. I mean, he shows it every now and again but it's getting more consistent. And he's learning what to do and what not to do strategically. And you can see that the mind working out there.

Tiger Woods:
So, it wasn't like he was when he was younger, just go ahead and pound it out there. He's trying to figure out shots and shapes and starting to understand how to play, and it's only going to get better. With that length, it's such an asset, especially in today's game, that he'll win multiple tournaments, and I'm sure the major championships is definitely in his future.

Moderator:
Tiger, could you indulge us and just tell us what the clubs you hit into which green, today, for the record please.

Tiger Woods:
Okay. In each green?

Moderator:
Each one if you could.

Tiger Woods:
I hit 8-iron into 1. I hit a 4-iron into 2. I hit a sand wedge into 3. I hit a 4-iron short of the green on 4. I hit 5-iron to the — sorry, a 4-iron to the right on 5. I had an 8-iron into 6. I hit an 8-iron into 7. I hit a 5-wood over the back at 8, chipped back. Nine, I hit an 8-iron there. 10, I pitched out, and then hit an 8-iron in there, and made bogey. 11, I hit a 7-iron. 12, I hit 9. 13, I hit 8. 14, I hit 9. 15, I had a 5-iron. 16, I hit an 8-iron. 17, I hit an 8-iron. And 18 I hit an 8-iron. How many 8-irons is that?

Moderator:
Tiger, thanks. Your victory today is going to inspire not only children but a lot of adults all around the world. Magnificent achievement. Congratulations. You are a very, very worthy champion, and we're proud that you're wearing that jacket for the fifth time today.

Tiger Woods:
Yeah, I'm excited about show-and-tell at school.

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