Vollständiges Transkript: Im Dunkeln - S2 E2 Die Route

Im Dunkeln: S2 E2 Die Route

: If you haven’t listened to the first episode of In the Dark, stop, go back and listen to it first and this will make a lot more sense. One other note, this episode contains a word that’s offensive.

: Das letzte Mal bei In the Dark.

: Erinnern Sie sich daran, wie Sie erfuhren, dass Curtis wegen der Morde verhaftet worden war?

: Im Radio. Ich dachte, es sei verrückt.

: Curtis Giovanni Flowers murdered those four people. There’s no doubt in my mind.

: Curtis Flowers wurde wegen vierfachen Mordes zum Tode verurteilt. Diese Verurteilung war bereits das sechste Mal, dass Flowers der Prozess gemacht wurde und der Fall.

: It’s too long, way too long and Curtis Flowers is still in prison and they’re still dragging it on.

: I know Curtis didn’t do it. I will go to my grave believing Curtis didn’t do it.

: Wenn man einen Mann sechsmal wegen desselben Verbrechens vor Gericht stellt, dann stimmt etwas mit dem gesamten System nicht.

: On the west side of Winona in the middle of a neighborhood with lots of houses close together, there’s what looks like an abandoned parking lot. It’s nearly a block long, it’s overgrown, the grass isn’t mowed. It’s the kind of place you might drive by and never give a second thought.

: But if you slowed down and looked more closely, you’d notice a row of bricks poking out of the grass along the edge of the lot and a set of concrete steps that lead nowhere. If you got out of your car and walked onto the lot and headed all the way to the back, you’d find an old desk overturned in the grass. You’d see that someone had taken a silver marker and written the words ‘Merry Christmas’. This abandoned lot used to be a school.

: In den 1960er Jahren war es eine rein schwarze Schule, und sie lag in einem schwarzen Viertel. Aber 1970 wies die Bundesregierung die Stadt Winona an, ihre Schulen zu integrieren, und weiße und schwarze Schüler begannen, hier gemeinsam zur Schule zu gehen.

: But then four years later, on the night before Valentine’s Day, after all the students and teachers had left, a fire broke out. The flames lit up the sky and people could smell the smoke for miles. Within hours, the entire block-long brick building had burned to the ground. Nearly everyone I talked to about the fire Black and White, told me they think it was arson and that it was related to integration.

: Right next to the field where the school used to be, there’s a small, white house with a porch on the side. This is the house where Curtis Flowers’ parents live.

: Hallo.

: Lola and Archie Flowers have been married for 54 years. Everything in their house is just so. The dining room table is set perfectly with cloth napkins. In the living room, there’s a curved, tan velvet couch with fringe on the bottom and a matching ottoman.

: Lola and Archi are both retired and although they have five other children and many grandchildren, they have devoted most of their time in the past 21 years to their son, Curtis. Curtis’ parents talk on the phone with him almost every day. They regularly make the 80-minute drive each way to Parchman Prison.

: Alle zwei Wochen gehen wir hin.

: Ja.

: We see him the first and third Tuesday of each month. We don’t miss a beat.

: Können Sie ihm etwas mitbringen?

: Wenn du es satt hast, jedes Mal durchsucht zu werden, kannst du auch gleich deine Kleidung ausziehen und rübergehen.

: Nun, dort werden Sie wirklich gesucht.

: Ja, ja. Dich scannen und so.

: From the beginning, Lola and Archie Flowers have believed their son is innocent and they spent a lot of money on Curtis’ case.

: Was glauben Sie, wie viel Sie ausgegeben haben?

: Scheiße, als ob ich das nicht zusammenzählen könnte. Es waren etwa hundert und ein paar tausend Dollar.

: Oh, mein Gott.

: I’m telling you.

: Wie können Sie sich das leisten?

: I used to work three jobs a day. He was working double [inaudible]. And then after that, we went and borrowed some from the bank and everything to pay for the next lawyers and stuff. We had some money then, but we don’t have it now.

: In den vergangenen 21 Jahren und sechs Prozessen hat Curtis Flowers alle Arten von Anwälten kennengelernt: das Vater-Sohn-Anwaltsteam, den hochkarätigen schwarzen Nationalisten, den engagierten Pflichtverteidiger.

: When I met his parents, Lola and Archie, last summer, Curtis’ case had been taken on for free by a new team of lawyers from the Innocence Project in a high-powered East Coast law firm. Lola was feeling optimistic for the first time in a while. She was thinking ahead to the next family reunion.

: So we having the next one on Labor Day weekend, so I hope Curtis is out by then. Maybe it is a Supreme Court will say something. That’s what we’re waiting on now, to see what they’ve got to say.

: Erlauben Sie sich, an diesen Moment zu denken? Denkst du zum Beispiel daran, wie es wäre, wenn er...?

: Oh, yeah. I think about that all the time, you know, what a good time we’re going to have and everything. A lot of family say, “When they let him out, we’re all going to be there.” I say, “Yeah, we’re going to have a good time.”

: Curtis’ father, Archie, didn’t say much the first time I met him. He sat next to his wife and when she talked, he would just sigh or shake his head. I asked the Flowers if they had any photos of Curtis. They told me they only had one because in 1999, just before Curtis’ second trial their house burned down. Lola and Archie were out of town in Memphis when it happened. Their daughter was sleeping over at their house with some of their grandkids.

: Meine Tochter war zu Hause und sagte, es habe sich angehört, als wäre etwas in die Luft geflogen oder so. Es gab ein lautes Geräusch und als sie nachsah, brannte alles. Es hat einfach überall gebrannt.

: As for the cause of the fire, according to the report from the fire department, which I got a copy of, there was no final determination as to what caused it. But Lola told me that after the fire, someone told her that they’d heard something from a White person in town.

: But somebody said they heard say, “If they let that nigger go, another house is going to burn.

: Und was halten Sie davon?

: Was denken Sie, was ich davon halte? Das hat wahrscheinlich jemand angezündet.

: Many years ago, around the time of the first trial, Curtis’ friends and family tried to organize people in town to help Curtis. I went with our producer, Samara, to talk to some of the people who were involved in it. Pastor Jimmy Forrest and his wife, Rosie.

: Hi. Sind Sie Reverend Forrest?

: Ja, das bin ich.

: Pastor Forrest hatte im Jahr zuvor einen Schlaganfall erlitten. Also übernahm Rosie die meiste Zeit das Reden.

: Aber wir haben versucht, familienweit herauszufinden, ob wir Geld auftreiben, Anwälte einschalten, einen Anwalt für ihn finden müssen. Müssen wir... Wir wollten nur darüber reden und herausfinden, was wir tun können, um Curtis zu helfen.

: [unhörbar]

: Ja, ja. Sei einfach für ihn da.

: Rosie said her husband, Jimmy, took the lead back then on organizing a community meeting. Rosie told me that it felt like there was some momentum there, like they could really get something going. But then one day, before the meeting it happened, a woman came into the salon where Rosie worked, a Black woman whom Rosie refused to name. And this woman told Rosie that she’d been asked to deliver a message to her husband,, Jimmy from the White side of town. The message was brief.

: Er muss sich entspannen. Er muss sich entspannen, abkühlen.

: Von wem stammte die Nachricht?

: We don’t know exactly, but we didn’t want our house burned or anything to happen to our family.

: Und, hatten Sie dieses Treffen trotzdem?

: Haben wir es getan? Nein.

: No, we didn’t. Everybody just disappeared. We had planned to get together and talk about it. Nobody said… But so, we just didn’t do anything else. We backed off.

: Because it sounded like it’s a threat, right, that you received.

: It was. It was. It was. It was a threat. If you had been here… Matter of fact, if I had, if I knew enough about the law system, or lawyers or whatever, I would have investigated that incident. I would have tried to follow that up, but I didn’t know enough. We don’t have… The bad part about it, you can’t prove none of this stuff.

: Haben Sie schon einmal von solchen Vorfällen in Winona gehört?

: I have. And so, that’s what put the fear.

: This is season 2 In the Dark, an investigative podcast from APM Reports. I’m Madeleine Baran.

: This season is about the case of Curtis Flowers, a Black man from a small town in Mississippi, who’s spent the past 21 years fighting for his life and a White prosecutor, who spent that same time trying just as hard to execute him.

: Ich war in Mississippi, um herauszufinden, was im Fall Curtis Flowers vor sich ging, um herauszufinden, warum der Staatsanwalt, Doug Evans, den Fall sechsmal verhandelt hatte. Ich beschloss, meine Berichterstattung damit zu beginnen, dass ich mir die Beweise ansehe, die Doug Evans den Geschworenen in diesen sechs Prozessen vorlegte.

: Meiner Meinung nach bestand der Fall gegen Curtis Flowers im Wesentlichen aus drei Dingen: die Strecke, die Curtis am Morgen der Morde zurückgelegt haben soll, die Waffe, mit der Curtis die vier Menschen im Laden ermordet haben soll, und die Geständnisse, die Curtis gegenüber seinen Zellengenossen abgelegt hat. Die Route, die Waffe, die Geständnisse. Ich beschloss, mit der Route zu beginnen.

: Ich bin mit unserer Produzentin Natalie hingefahren, um mir das selbst anzusehen.

: Okay, so we are standing in front of Curtis Flowers’ house where he was living in 1996 and what we’re about to do is walk the route that the State says Curtis walked that day.

: And it’s like 7 o’clock in the morning.

: Yeah. So, it’s about that time that he would have started out, according to the State.

: Ja.

: So, let’s start walking.

: Im Grunde nach rechts.

: According to Doug Evans, Curtis had walked everywhere that morning. He got up early on the morning of July 16th, left his house on the west side of town and started walking east. In the neighborhood where Curtis lived, the houses are small and close together. It’s hilly, the yards are short and some houses are practically up on the street.

: People are out in their yards, hanging out, waving to people as they drive by. According to Doug Evans, Curtis walked out of his neighborhood and he went east. He crossed over one of the town’s biggest streets, Highway 51, and kept going. Curtis turned down a street that led to a small sewing factory.

: We’re coming up to Angellica Drive.

: Er ging auf den Parkplatz direkt vor der Fabrik und stahl eine Pistole aus dem Handschuhfach eines Autos.

: Then he’s going to walk home.

: Dann ging er den ganzen Weg nach Hause, zurück zum Westteil der Stadt, zu seinem Nachbarn.

: We’re crossing 51. Now we’re back on Curtis’ side of town.

: Curtis war ein paar Minuten lang in seinem Haus. Dann verließ er das Haus erneut, diesmal, um zu Tardy Furniture zu gehen. Tardy Furniture lag ganz am anderen Ende der Stadt, auf der Seite, auf der Curtis gerade war. Also fuhr er zurück in den Osten, um in den Laden zu gehen.

: We’re crossing another busy street.

: Er ging an einem Häuserblock nach dem anderen vorbei, und als er sich Tardy Furniture näherte, kam er an Geschäften vorbei: einer Autowerkstatt, einer Reinigung. Als er bei Tardy Furniture ankam, ging er hinein und tötete alle vier Personen dort. Dann ging er durch die Vordertür hinaus und machte sich auf den Weg nach Westen, um nach Hause zu gehen.

: Unterwegs hielt er an einem Supermarkt am Highway 51, um Chips und ein Sixpack Bier zu kaufen.

: Das ist ein sehr langer Weg.

: Das ist es wirklich.

: By the time Natalie and I were done, we’d walked for an hour and 36 minutes. The route the prosecutor, Doug Evans, said Curtis Flowers took was long. It was nearly four miles. And it’s brazen. It would have taken Curtis all over the town of Winona that morning.

: When Curtis Flowers talked to investigators on the day of the murders and later when he testified in court, Curtis said he never walked that route. In fact, he said he was never on the east side of town at all that morning. He’d spent the whole morning in his own neighborhood on the west side.

: But the problem for Curtis Flowers was that the prosecutor, Doug Evans, had found witnesses, who placed Curtis at almost every point on that route. These route witnesses were one of the strongest parts of the State’s case. Each of them raised their right hand and swore an oath and testified to seeing Curtis that day as he walked by.

: Although none of the witnesses testified that they saw Curtis carrying a gun or saw any blood on him, their testimony was powerful. Most of these route witnesses knew Curtis. A lot of them had known Curtis their entire lives. Most of them were Black and had grown up in the same neighborhood as Curtis. When Doug Evans put them on the stand and asked them to describe who they saw that morning, these witnesses could not have been more clear. They would point to Curtis and be like. “It was Curtis. There he is. I’ve known him for years.”

: It was hard for Curtis’ lawyers to break the spell of the route they tried cross examining each of the witnesses. But it didn’t seem to do much. If anything, as the trials went on, the witnesses seemed to get even more certain and even more angry at the defense attorneys for doubting them. It was easy to see how a jury would be convinced by these route witnesses.

: Auf die Geschworenen wirkten diese Zeugen glaubwürdig, als Menschen, die das Richtige tun. Doug Evans sagte ihnen, dass alles, was die Zeugen sagten, alle ihre individuellen Geschichten, zusammenpassten. Es machte Sinn als eine Geschichte, eine Route, eine klare, überzeugende Geschichte über einen Mann, der einen Mord begehen wollte.

: But there was something I found odd about this route and about these witnesses. I managed to track down the original statements that the route witnesses gave to law enforcement. There were at least 12 witnesses, who’d given statements about seeing Curtis Flowers walking on the day of the murders. Most of them testified at trial.

: The statements are pretty basic. “Did you see Curtis Flowers. Do you remember what he was wearing?” that kind of thing. But it’s when the statements were given that stood out to me. The first statement from a route witness naming Curtis didn’t come until a month after the murders.

: Some statements weren’t given until four, five or even nine months later. This seems strange to me because what the witnesses were describing seemed totally unremarkable. They were describing a man they knew, who lived in their neighborhood walking past them, a man who wasn’t doing anything strange. He was just walking. That was it.

: I couldn’t see any reason why on the morning of the murders, anyone would have connected that to an execution-style quadruple murder in a different part of town. And if you didn’t make that connection in your mind that day, how in the world would you be able to make it weeks or months later? And even if you did remember it, why would you wait so long to tell the cops? That’s what I wanted to find out when I set out with our producer, Natalie, to find these witnesses last summer.

: I wasn’t sure what to expect. A lot of people in Winona told me that these witnesses, they don’t talk about their testimony. They don’t talk at all about the case. I couldn’t find a record of any of the witnesses ever giving an actual interview to a reporter. And when we found one of our first witnesses and asked him about his testimony, we didn’t exactly get off to a promising start.

: Das ist vertraulich.

: This guy’s name is James Edward Kennedy, but everyone just calls him Bojack.

: Es ist vertraulich. Wir dürfen nicht darüber sprechen.

: Ach so. Wie kommt das?

: We’re not supposed to talk about it because other people have gotten the wrong impression about talking to people like you all. So, me, myself, I don’t talk about it.

: You don’t?

: Mm-mm. I’m not going to talk about that, period, becuase it’s confidential and it caused confusion on both sides.

: Bojack had talked to the district attorney’s investigator, John Johnson, in September of 1996, two months after the murders. He said that he’d seen Curtis Flowers walking by his house, smoking a cigarette on the morning of July 16th 1996, near the factory where Curtis had supposedly stolen the gun.

: Bojack had testified in five of Curtis Flowers’ trials and over all of those trials, Bojack never wavered. He was absolutely certain he had seen Curtis that day. I ended up talking to Bojack for nearly four hours over two days. And eventually, he did tell me a story of what he’d seen on the day of the murders. It was more or less the same one he told in court five times about seeing Curtis that day. Bojack told me he was out on his porch at the time when he saw him.

: Zu Fuß dorthin.

: Zurückgehen?

: Ja, ja.

: Und haben Sie etwas zu ihm gesagt?

: Oh, yeah. “Hey, man. What are you doing down here this early in the morning?” and he mumbled something and he never stopped.

: Aber es wurde schnell klar, dass Bojack ein Typ ist, der viel erzählt, ein Typ, der einfach gerne Geschichten erzählt.

: There’s a lot that I know.

: Bojack hat mir zum Beispiel erzählt, dass ISIS in Winona war.

: ISIS. ISIS war hier.

: Wie hier in Winona?

: Hier, in Winona.

: Und das eine Mal, als der Fluss in Winona plötzlich die Richtung wechselte und rückwärts zu fließen begann.

: And then the rivers backwards. They didn’t put that in the paper.

: Außerdem sagte er mir, er mache sich Sorgen, dass mein Mikrofon Nachrichten an die Russen übermitteln könnte.

: If Russia can hack into the election don’t you think they’re going to hack into what you say?

: Bojack wasn’t saying any of these things with any real seriousness. It didn’t seem at all as though he really thought my microphone was in communication with Vladimir Putin. He was just messing with me. Bojack was happy to tell me about all kinds of things, but the only thing he wouldn’t talk about was how he had ended up giving a statement to law enforcement two months after the murders.

: Es steht mir nicht frei, das zu sagen.

: Ich denke schon.

: That is all i want to tell you, that I’m not at liberty to say.

: I didn’t think it would be like a big question, actually,.

: That’s it. I’m not going to say anything more. I mean, I’m looking at, in the back of my mind, it’s telling me not to talk no more. It’s telling me not to talk no more.

: As the summer went on, Natalie and I kept talking to witnesses and slowly, we started to piece together just how these route witnesses came to be giving statements to investigators. It turned out it wasn’t like they just picked up the phone and called the cops to report what they’d seen. In the Curtis Flowers case, it worked the other way.

: Hallo, wie geht es Ihnen?

: All right. I’m Mary. Do you all want me?

: Oh, ja.

: I talked to a route witness, named Mary Jeanette Fleming, who told me that how she got involved in this 21-year-long death penalty case isn’t entirely clear to her. She said that one day, about seven months after the murders, she was working her shift at McDonald’s when in walked the Police Chief of Winona.

: He came up to McDonald’s and told me to come to the police station and I asked why we’re going to do that, that it was something that happened to one of my kids and he never did tell me something anyway.

: Sie haben sich Sorgen gemacht, dass mit Ihren Kindern etwas nicht stimmt, nicht wahr?

: Er sagte nur, dass er mich an diesem Tag auf dem Revier sprechen wolle, wissen Sie.

: Mary Jeanette asked her boss if she could leave work right then in the middle of her shift, and he said Okay. And then she drove herself down to the Winona Police Station. She said she still didn’t know what it was about. And then, she ended up in a room with an investigator.

: Als ich dort ankam, erzählte er mir von dem Fall Flower.

: Und haben sie dich gefragt, ob du Curtis am Tag der Morde gesehen hast oder...?

: Yes, ma’am. That’s what he asked me.

: Mary Jeanette sagte, sie habe dem Ermittler gesagt, dass sie sich daran erinnere, Curtis am Morgen der Morde, also sieben Monate zuvor, auf dem Bürgersteig an ihr vorbeigegangen zu sein.

: So, I just, you know, told him I had seen him that morning. I didn’t want no police over there anyway.

: Mary Jeanette Fleming musste 21 Jahre lang bei jedem Prozess von Curtis Flowers aussagen. Sie sagte, dass all dies ihre Familie gegen sie aufgebracht hat. Sie sagte, ihre Familie glaube, dass Curtis unschuldig sei und dass sie glaube, sie sei mit einer erfundenen Geschichte zur Polizei gegangen, um die $30.000 Belohnung zu bekommen, die in dem Fall ausgesetzt worden war.

: My own folk was against me, telling me I was lying to get more of that stuff like that. I didn’t want no damn pay.

: Why do you think they didn’t want him to tell that story?

: Because they were friends to him. [inaudible] tell me he was a church man. Well, oh so what? Me too. You know, so, he didn’t win the deal. No, he couldn’t have killed that many people that one time. I didn’t say he did do it. I said I’d seen him that morning headed in that direction. I told them I don’t know what he went to.

: Ihre eigene Familie hat Sie also beschuldigt, ein Lügner zu sein.

: Yeah. My own. Definitely, I got so sick, I’ve still got that [star].

: Wir fanden einen weiteren Zeugen, Danny Joe Lot, auf einer Bank vor einem Dollar General Store liegend, die Arme über den Augen verschränkt, um die Nachmittagssonne abzuschirmen.

: Sind Sie Danny Joe Lot?

: Ja, sicher.

: Großartig.

: Back in 1997, Danny Joe had given a detailed statement to the DA’s investigator, John Johnson. It was about 10 months after the murders when he gave it. When I found Danny Joe, he’d clearly been drinking and by his own account, Danny Joe’s memory was terrible. He told me that back in 1996, he would get drunk almost every day. He told me he was actually drinking a beer the morning some officers pulled up in May 1997, 10 months after the murders and told him to go with them down to the police station.

: Sie haben mich erwischt.

: Wer hat dich erwischt?

: I don’t know. Them White men, one of them the police. I dont know.

: Und sie haben dir gesagt, du sollst ins Auto steigen.

: Ja, ja.

: Were you scared? Like they just come by. You don’t know where they are.

: Hell, yeah, I was scare. I didn’t know who they were. I just got in. I

: Danny Joe Lot had been picked up a lot by the police over the years, but this time was different. This time he said they didn’t put handcuffs on him and they let him ride in the front seat.

: They said, “We ain’t going to… We ain’t putting no handcuffs on you.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “Get in the front seat.” I got in the front. He said, “You ain’t dead and now we’ve got to ask you a question about Curtis.”

: Danny Joe told me that once he got to the police station, he was put into a room with the same investigator who talked to many of the other witnesses, John Johnson, the investigator for the District Attorney’s office. That’s when he gave a statement about seeing Curtis.

: Ich sprach weiter mit Zeugen, und dabei wurde ich immer misstrauischer, nicht gegenüber den Zeugen, sondern gegenüber den Ermittlungen. Einige Leute schienen ziemlich ausgeflippt zu sein. Sie sprachen mit mir durch die Fliegengittertüren oder aus den Autofenstern.

: I don’t need to talk about it, okay, beucase I [inaudible].

: I knocked on one woman’s door and she wouldn’t come out at all. All she would say was that if Curtis had another trial, she would refuse to testify.

: I don’t want to be nowhere invovled.

: I went to see a really minor witness. She didn’t even testify at trial because all she said was that she saw Curtis in his own neighborhood on the day of the murders. But when I went to see this woman, she told me she actually did not see Curtis that day.

: No. No, I didn’t see Curtis.

: And then she closed the door on me. One day, I ended up talking to a man, whose wife was a witness, but she never testified at trial. When I stopped by, his wife was taking a nap. And at first, he was very friendly and invited me inside. But when I asked about his wife’s statement about seeing Curtis, he said I should go.

: Sie wissen schon [unhörbar], um darüber zu sprechen.

: Seine Frau würde nicht wollen, dass er darüber spricht.

: She’s not going to talk to you about it. I know that [inaudible].

: Als ich ihn nach dem Grund fragte, sagte er, seine Frau habe sich von den Strafverfolgungsbehörden dazu gedrängt gefühlt.

: Sie wurde unter Druck gesetzt, zu reden [unhörbar].

: That they’d asked about things she knew nothing about. He wouldn’t explain what he meant. On the way out, he made this really cryptic remark. He said they wanted everything.

: Sie wollten alles.

: They wanted her to make some commitments that she couldn’t make. And then he told me. I’ve said more than I probably should have. And the interview was over.

: And then one day, I met a witness named Ed McChristian. That’s after the break.

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: Ed McChristian wohnt in einem schmucken, einstöckigen Backsteinhaus. Als ich hineinging, dröhnte eine Klimaanlage im Fenster.

: Can we sit down for sec? Do you mind. It’s just so hot.

: Ed McChristian trug eine blaue Jeans und ein T-Shirt, das sich immer mehr mit Schweiß vollsaugte, während wir in den Gartenstühlen auf einem kleinen Betonstreifen vor seinem Haus saßen. Er hielt einen kleinen blauen Waschlappen in der rechten Hand und hob ihn etwa jede Minute an seinen Kopf, um den Schweiß abzuwischen, der ihm herunterlief. Dann faltete er den blauen Waschlappen ordentlich zusammen und drückte ihn zum Abtrocknen auf seine Jeans.

: Ich stellte Ed McChristian alle meine üblichen Fragen. Er erzählte mir, wie er Curtis Flowers am Tag der Morde an seinem Haus vorbeigehen sah. Er erzählte mir, dass er sich nicht mit den Strafverfolgungsbehörden in Verbindung gesetzt hatte, um ihnen davon zu berichten, dass die Strafverfolgungsbehörden sich mit ihm in Verbindung setzten und dass er auf dem Polizeirevier gegenüber John Johnson eine Aussage machte. Ed McChristian hatte etwa einen Monat nach den Morden mit John Johnson gesprochen. Vor Gericht hat Ed McChristian immer ausgesagt, dass er sich sicher war, Curtis Flowers am Morgen des 16. Juli 1996 an seinem Haus vorbeigehen gesehen zu haben.

: He just passed, just like that. I never gave him a thought. I mean, you don’t know nothing didn’t happen, so I just looked up and seeing who he was and recognized him. That was it.

: Wie sicher sind Sie, dass Sie Curtis an diesem Morgen gesehen haben?

: I wasn’t even really sure. They had more about it than I did.

: I wasn’t even really sure. They had more about it than I did. What did that mean? And then, Ed McChristian told me how it came to be that he gave such a detailed statement about seeing Curtis Flowers on July 16th 1996. He said that statement he gave, it didn’t start with him. It started with John Johnson.

: Ed McChristian told me Curtis Flowers did walk by his house at some point that summer, but he never remembered which day it was. They said that wasn’t a problem because when he walked into that room at the police station, John Johnson already knew what day he’d seen Curtis, that he’d seen Curtis Flowers on July 16th 1996.

: Sie hatten sie auf einem Block für mich notiert. Ich musste also nur hingehen, sie stellten mir die Frage und ich antwortete.

: Ed McChristian said it’s still not clear to him exactly how John Johnson knew this. He said Johnson told him that someone had turned him in, that someone had said that Ed McChristian had seen Curtis on July 16th. Johnson wouldn’t say who this person was. The whole thing was kind of unsettling.

: Somebody had told them I’d seen him, so I couldn’t say I didn’t see him.

: So, Ed McChristian said, “Yes, I did see Curtis Flowers on July 16th 1996.” He gave the statement and testified to it in six trials.

: And so, if you hadn’t been like called in there and they hadn’t said like, “July 16th 1996,” would you have even remembered that day?

: Nein

: Ed McChristian told me that every time another one of Curtis’s trials came up and he found out he had to testify again, he didn’t want to go, but he didn’t think he had a choice. He told me he’s not sure exactly what would happen to him if he straightup refused to testify, but that whatever it would be, it wouldn’t be good, like he might have to pay a fine or could even be thrown in jail.

: Alles, was sie taten, war, mir zu sagen, dass sie mich jedes Mal vorladen würden.

: So you didn’t have a choice.

: Mm-mm. Every time, I’d get a subpoena.

: Did you ever say like, “I’m not doing this”?

: You don’t know how bad I wanted to. And I never did say it, but I sure wanted to. Don’t do not good.

: We had talked to almost all the witnesses on the route that the prosecutor, Doug Evans, said Curtis had walked on the morning of the murders. I had just two witnesses left and the story that these two witnesses told was critically important to the State’s case against Curtis. Their names were Roy Harris and Clemmie Fleming.

: They didn’t talk to law enforcement until about nine months after the murders. Clemmie and Roy gave separate statements to John Johnson. But what they told him was more or less the same story. Clemmie and Roy said they were in a car together on the morning of the murders. Roy was driving, Clemmie was in the passenger seat. Clemmie had asked Roy to give her a ride to Tardy Furniture to pay her furniture bill.

: Roy and Clemmie pulled up outside the store. It was right around the time of the murders, but Clemmie decided not to get out of the car because even though she had driven all the way down here, she later explained she wasn’t feeling well because she was five months pregnant.

: Sie fuhren los, und als sie um die Ecke fuhren und ein oder zwei Häuserblocks von Tardy Furniture entfernt waren, sahen sie vor sich einen Mann, der über ein Feld rannte, in Richtung Westen, so als ob er aus der Richtung der Innenstadt weglief. Clemmie erkannte ihn sofort. Es war ihr Nachbar, Curtis Flowers.

: She pointed him out to Roy, but Roy didn’t know him. They didn’t talk to Curtis. They couldn’t remember what clothes he was wearing or what kind of shoes. They didn’t describe seeing any blood on him or seeing a gun, but what they did see was bad enough; Curtis Flowers running west around the time of the murders, just a block or two from Tardy Furniture. Clemmie and Roy both testified in the first trial, but almost as soon as that first trial ended, the story of Clemmie and Roy began to fall apart.

: Last summer, I went with our producer, Samara, to find Roy Harris. He lives in a little town about a half hour from Winona. Roy didn’t have a listed phone number and we couldn’t find anyone who had an address for him, so we just started stopping into gas stations and truck stops, asking if anyone knew him.

: Wissen Sie zufällig, wo Roy Harris wohnt?

: Ich habe keine Ahnung.

: Na gut. Also gut.

: Wissen Sie, wo Roy Harris wohnt?

: Who’s that?

: Roy Harris.

: Roy Harris. I can’t place him.

: Na gut. Wissen Sie zufällig, wo Roy Harris wohnt? Nein. Okay.

: Schließlich kehrten wir in ein Café ein und fragten die Damen, die das Mittagsbuffet bedienten, ob sie wüssten, wo er zu finden sei.

: Actually, we’re trying to meet with a man named Roy Harris, but we can’t figure out where he lives.

: Isn’t that him?

: Oh, ist er das da?

: Der Kassierer zeigte auf einen älteren Mann, der mit einer Frau an einem Tisch saß. Sie aßen gerade zu Mittag. Es waren Roy Harris und seine Freundin Joanne Young.

: I don’t want to interrupt your lunch.

: [unhörbar] setzen Sie sich [unhörbar].

: Schön, Sie kennenzulernen. Hi.

: Schön, Sie kennenzulernen. Mein Name ist Joanne.

: Hi. I’m Madeleine.

: Joanne told us that talking with Roy wasn’t going to be easy because Roy was almost entirely deaf. He lost most of his hearing when he was a teenager when a tractor ran over his head. He didn’t know sign language. He didn’t use a hearing aid. We made plans to meet up with them a few days later at Joanne’s house.

: Hallo.

: Kommen Sie rein. Wollt ihr alle, dass ich zu Roy gehe und ihn suche?

: Eigentlich nicht. Ganz und gar nicht.

: Joanne was wearing a long, flowing skirt and red lipstick. Roy was wearing a baseball cap a T-shirt and jeans. We sat down at Joanne’s kitchen table and right away, Joanne took charge of the interview.

: He can hear the words, but he can’t make it out what it is.

: Er kann also hören, dass jemand spricht.

: Right, but what it is, he don’t. He can read your lips. My lips, he can read me good.

: Yeah. Yeah. That’s why it’s good to have you here.

: Ich meine, wirklich, Roy, sie will dir ein paar Fragen stellen.

: Ich weiß. Ja, ich weiß.

: Danke.

: Roy Harris told me that the morning of the murders, he did see a man running across the street, a block or two from Tardy Furniture. But he also told me that when he saw that man, it was much earlier in the morning and that he was alone in the car. Clemmie wasn’t with him. Roy said he didn’t take Clemmie for a ride until later that morning after he’d seen the man and that when he was in the car with Clemmie, they didn’t see anyone running.

: But she didn’t see nobody running. The only time I’ve seen somebody running is when I was by myself. She wasn’t with me when I’d seen the fellow running. And when I took her, we didn’t see nobody running.

: Nine months or so after the murders, law enforcement told Roy Harris they wanted to talk to him. Roy didn’t know how they’d found him. He figures that somehow, someone must have told someone about the man he’d seen running. Roy said he went down to the police station and just like so many of the other witnesses, he ended up in a room with John Johnson, the investigator for the District Attorney’s office.

: Was hat er gesagt, als Sie sich getroffen haben?

: Was hat er gesagt, als ihr euch getroffen habt? Was hat er zu Ihnen gesagt, als er Sie auf die Polizeiwache brachte?

: He showed me Curtis Flowers’ picture, like a school picture.

: Ach so. Und wie viele Fotos haben sie Ihnen gezeigt?

: Wie viele Bilder haben sie dir gezeigt?

: Erstens.

: Nur eine.

: Mr. Flowers’ picture. He asked me was that the fellow I’d seen running and I told him no. I told him that wasn’t the fellow.

: Roy Harris said that John Johnson pushed him on this point. Wasn’t it Curtis Flowers he saw and wasn’t Roy in the car with Clemmie when they saw the man?

: And so, he kept on and kept on and kept on. He tried to make me, you know, say you did, you know, she was with me. But I told him she wasn’t.

: Er hat Sie also weiter befragt?

: Kept on, kept on, kept on. and I didn’t want to agree with it.

: But eventually, Roy said, he broke down and told John Johnson. “Fine. I saw Curtis Flowers with Clemmie on the morning of the murders.” Roy said he did it because he wanted to get out of there. He just wanted it to be over.

: Ich hatte eine gewisse Angst vor Johnson.

: Warum hatten Sie Angst vor Johnson?

: Afraid he’d go have somebody do something to me or something like that, you know, because he was trying to get me all messed up anyway. So…

: Ach so. Ja, gut.

: Was haben Sie gedacht, was er tun könnte?

: Was könnte er Ihrer Meinung nach tun?

: I don’t know. Anything. Aint no telling what.

: Aber du hattest Angst vor ihm.

: Yeah, because he knew what I couldn’t hear good and he was trying to get me in trouble, you know, like you know, by saying the wrong thing, you know, and stuff like that, he’d get me locked up, you know.

: Aber es klingt, als ob Sie sich bedroht fühlten.

: Ja, das habe ich. Das habe ich wirklich.

: I tried to talk to John Johnson about this, but he did not respond to my request for an interview. Roy testified in the first trial that he and Clemmie saw Curtis that day, but after that first trial, Roy Harris went to Curtis’ lawyers and told them that the testimony he’d given was not true.

: After Roy Harris recanted his testimony, the prosecutor, Doug Evans, had a problem. The story of Roy and Clemmie had been one of the strongest pieces of evidence about Curtis’ route at the first trial. Now, that story was falling apart. If Clemmie also changed her story that would be even worse. If that happened., Doug Evans would no longer have a story of Curtis running away from downtown. All he would have would be some stories of Curtis walking around. And so, after Roy changed his story, Doug Evans’ investigator, John Johnson, moved to lock down Clemmie’s story.

: And this thing’s recording. Clemmie, for the sake of the record, my name is John Johnson. I also am [inaudible].

: Es ist mir gelungen, das Video ausfindig zu machen, das John Johnson von Clemmie Fleming aufgenommen hat, nachdem Roy widerrufen hatte.

: Today’s date is February the 8th, 1999. We’re in the District Attorney’s office in Winona, Mississippi and we’ve asked you to come in and make another statement to us concerning Curtis Flowers [inaudible].

: Clemie looks young in the video. She’s just 22 then. She’s barely talking above a whisper. She’s wearing white spandex-y shorts and a long-sleeved striped polo shirt. Her hair is straight and down to her ears. She’s wearing silver earrings. She’s in a room with John Johnson and another investigator. Both of the investigators are off camera Clemmie is sitting in a blue office chair and she keeps swiveling left and right.

: [Wo wollten Sie an diesem Morgen hin und was wollten Sie tun?

: [unhörbar].

: John Johnson und der andere Ermittler führen Clemmie durch eine ganze Geschichte.

: In Ordnung, Clemmie, von diesem Zeitpunkt an, als Sie ihn zum ersten Mal sahen, wie verhielt er sich da? Was hat er getan?

: Er war auf der Flucht.

: Okay. In welche Richtung?

: Er rannte in Richtung der [unhörbar].

: In Richtung oder... Okay. Mit anderen Worten, es wäre von Tardies weg gewesen.

: Mm-hm. Ja, ja.

: Ja.

Throughout the interview. John Johnson and the other investigator keep guiding Clemmie back to the statements she gave at trial. They keep reminding her of what she’d said in the past.

: Ich glaube, in Ihrer Erklärung oder Aussage hatten Sie [unhörbar] gesagt, dass er rannte, als wäre jemand hinter ihm her.

: Mm-hm.

: Dann erzählt John Johnson Clemmie, warum sie diese Aufnahme machen wollten.

: Im Grunde wollen wir heute Morgen wissen, Clemmie, an dem Tag, an dem du reinkamst und diese Aussage gemacht hast, habe ich dich dazu gebracht, etwas zu sagen?

: Nein.

: War Ihre Aussage frei und freiwillig?

: Ja.

: Habe ich Ihnen Geld, eine Belohnung oder irgendeine Art von Dankbarkeit angeboten, wenn Sie die Aussage machen würden?

: Nein.

: And also, you know, I didn’t guide you as to the facts of what you saw that morning?

: Nein.

: Es geht so weiter.

: Haben Sie an diesem Tag die Wahrheit gesagt, Clemmie?

: I wouldn’t be lying like that. Mm-hm.

: And you’ve been unfaithful in your testimony. Under oath, you’ve raised your hand and swore to tell the truth. Is that correct?

: I wouldn’t be lying.

: And in fact, you told the truth then, did you not? I think that’s all that we need, Clemmie. We just want to record the fact that, you know, you’ve the truth, that we hadn’t guided you as to what to say, that your statement’s free and voluntary and that, you know, you have not backed away from being a truthful witness.

: Ja, ja.

: Ich danke Ihnen vielmals. Und damit ist die Erklärung abgeschlossen.

: I’ve talked to a lot of people who know Clemmie:, her friends, her family, and they all said that despite what Clemmie has told law enforcement and despite Clemmie’s testimony in all six trials, they do not believe that she actually saw Curtis that day.

: I talked to Clemmie’s sister, Mary Ella, who told me that Clemmie couldn’t have seen Curtis Flowers on the day of the murders because, she said, Clemmie was with her the whole day. She said she remembers it because that morning, she and Clemmie had planned to go down to Tardy Furniture together, so that Clemmie could pay her furniture bill. But while they were getting ready to leave, someone came by Mary Ella’s house and told them that there had been a shooting at Tardy Furniture.

: Mary Ella sagte, sie und Clemmie seien gemeinsam zum Tatort gegangen, um ihn zu untersuchen.

: And when we get down there, they had it all taped off and I told Clemmie, I said, “I’m glad we didn’t go down there because we probably would have been, you know, caught up in there,” and she said, “Sure would have.”

: Mary Ella didn’t find out that Clemmie had given a statement to law enforcement until the first trial. Mary Ella wasn’t at the trial. It was being held in Tupelo, about 100 miles away but someone passed along word to Mary Ella that her sister, Clemmie, was up there on the stand, testifying under oath that she saw Curtis on the morning of the murders.

: Mary Ella’s first reaction was to race to the courthouse to tell the jurors exactly what she told me that Clemmie’s story couldn’t possibly be true. But by the time she got there, the trial was almost over and the defense decided not to try to call her as a last-minute witness. Mary Ella did end up testifying for Curtis’ defense in the second trial.

: And it was like they were using me and Clemmie against one another. It like Clemmie’s word against mine and Clemmie won.

: I went to talk to one of Clemmie’s best friends from back then, her cousin, a woman named Latarsha Blissett. Latarsha and Clemmie still live just a block apart. Latarsha lives in a trailer with her husband. It’s in the backyard behind her mother’s house. Latarsha said she remains convinced that Clemmie made up the story and that she did it because she felt pressured by law enforcement and because she thought she might be able to get some money.

: Und Latarsha sagte, dass sie dies aufgrund dessen, was ihr passiert ist, denkt. 1996 war Latarsha 19 Jahre alt und sagte, dass sie eines Tages in der High School war, als die Polizisten auftauchten und ihr sagten, sie müsse mitkommen.

: I was scared, but it was the police, so I’m going to go. I know I aint did nothing wrong because I will never do nothing that gives me no trouble, but I don’t know. I just went. I was just doing what a kid’s got to do.

: Latarsha said she was taken to a police station and put in a room with two investigators. She said one of them was John Johnson. She doesn’t remember who the other person was. She said they asked her about Curtis Flowers, whether she’d ever dated him, whether she knew what kind of shoes he wore, whether she knew anything that would connect Curtis to the murders at Tardy Furniture. She told them no, no and no. But she said they also asked her this other kind of question.

: They were asking me was I trying to buy a mobile home. They asked me if I knew what $30,000 dollars could buy. “If, you know, you’re trying to get a mobile home do you know what, you know, this amount of money could buy?”

: Well, every time they were asking me something, they always would ask me do I know what this certain amount of money could do. So, they didn’t just say, “Well, hey, we’ll give you blah-dy, blah-dy, you go buy that trailer, or we’ll give you…” They didn’t do that, but they ended everything with this money to let me know that it’s on the table. So, I didn’t pick up on that.

: Latarsha said that although the investigators implied that she could get money, they never actually said that if she connected Curtis to the crime, she would get a reward. Latarsha said she didn’t tell them anything because she didn’t know anything, but when she found out that her cousin, Clemmie, had talked to law enforcement and that Clemmie had told them that she had seen Curtis that day, Latarsha did not believe Clemmie’s story. Not at all.

: It was time to go talk to Clemmie. Natalie and I went to see her late one afternoon. Clemmie is now 42. She still lives in her childhood home in Winona. It’s a small, one-story house about a block from where Curtis grew up.

: Hallo.

: Hallo.

: Clemmie opened the door. It was hot out. She was wearing red shorts and a T-shirt and she was holding a plastic bag of lettuce in one hand. She looked at me with suspicion. She didn’t invite me inside. Our entire conversation took place with her in the doorway, sometimes sort of closing the door a little bit, then opening it a little bit, like she was going to end this conversation at any moment

: Ich möchte nur wissen, wie das für Sie war.

: I don’t like it. Everytime you look up, somebody’s saying negative stuff and say I lied and why did I lie on him and I got him killed, I’m about to get him get killed and all kinds of negative stuff. And I don’t like it.

: Clemmie erzählte mir mehr oder weniger dieselbe Geschichte, die sie auch vor Gericht ausgesagt hatte, nämlich dass sie Curtis am Morgen der Morde aus dem Stadtzentrum weglaufen sah, obwohl sich einige Details geändert hatten. Clemmie sagte mir, dass sie von vornherein nie in die Ermittlungen verwickelt werden wollte. Sie sagte mir, dass sie sich niemals von sich aus gemeldet hätte und dass der einzige Grund, warum sie mit den Ermittlern gesprochen hat, der ist, dass jemand sie bei der Arbeit belauscht hat und sie angezeigt hat.

: Why didn’t you want to tell anybody about it, do you think?

: Becuase I didn’t know was going to get this, you know, this [inaudible] and I had to go to court and, you know, and people criticize you, you know how they…

: Für wie wichtig halten Sie das, was Sie zu sagen haben, überhaupt?

I don’t know. I ain’t the only one testifying. Yeah, other people testified, so…

: Yeah. Do you have a sense of who’s the most important witness?

: Nein.

: Ja, ja.

: Wer ist das?

: I don’t… I mean, I think you’re placing him closest to the store, you know.

: Also. Aha.

: Ja, ja.

: Als ich versuchte, Clemmie weitere Fragen zu ihrer Aussage und dem, was sie gesehen hat, zu stellen, wurde sie ärgerlich.

: Und was ist dann passiert?

: I don’t know. I don’t know. Did you even read it in the paper?

: Nun, ich...

: I know you all saying my statement [and still] because I don’t testify when [inaudible] world with this stuff. [inaudible] I had it happen and I’m not going to let nobody criticize me. Back then, I let you do anything you ever said to me. I ain’t going to do it no more. I ain’t going to let nobody just walk up and shit and me. So, they just like I’m not going to let no body just criticize me. So, I won’t… I just wish that I… This shouldn’t have happened. I hate my [inaudible]. I don’t like it and I just want to live a normal life. I don’t care nothing about it. It had to happen.

: I told Clemmie what I’d heard from her friends and family, how they thought her story about seeing Curtis wasn’t true and how a lot of them figured that she’d been pressured by law enforcement into saying it. Clemmie said all those people had it wrong. She told me that her story is the truth, but she also told me that even if her story wasn’t true, coming forward now and saying that probably wouldn’t help Curtis’ case anyway.

: It ain’t going to help nothing. If I did say it, it ain’t going to help him nothing because you’ve got other people testifying saying they’d seen him. So, what will my testifying help?

: Ich denke sehr viel.

: So, what they want me to do? Tell a lie and say I didn’t see him? I’d seen him and like I can’t erase it make it go away. If it happened, it happened. That’s the truth. So, now you know the truth.

: What do you think you’ll do if there’s a seventh trial?

: You know, I ain’t going to be [inaudible] caring about this stuff. I just wish it will go away. And I ain’t [inaudible]. I ain’t going to go [inaudible].

: You’re not going to do it?

: Mm-mm. I don’t want to and ain’t nobody going to force me. I just ain’t going to do it.

: Clemmie wouldn’t tell me exactly why she would refuse to testify if she was called for another trial and she wouldn’t answer any more questions.

: I was at the end of the route. By the time I was done, I talked to every person who’s still alive, who testified about seeing Curtis Flowers on the morning of the murders. And after having done all that, I thought back on how Doug Evans had presented these witnesses to the jurors, how he described them as reliable, credible, as people with excellent memories, people with no reason to lie.

: Ich dachte daran, wie Doug Evans hervorgehoben hatte, wie viele Zeugen es gab und wie ihre Geschichten Curtis gesehen hatte, die alle zusammenpassten. Das sollte ein belastender Beweis sein. Und bei der Verhandlung war es das auch. Sie trugen dazu bei, dass die Geschworenen Curtis verurteilten und ihn zum Tode verurteilten. Wenn ich es jetzt betrachte, stimme ich mit dem Staatsanwalt Doug Evans überein, dass all diese Zeugen zwar solide Beweise liefern, aber keine Beweise dafür, dass Curtis Flowers an diesem Morgen durch die Stadt gelaufen ist.

: Instead, when I look at all these witnesses, all of these people I’d spent so much time with, I see evidence of a different kind, evidence that law enforcement was willing to rely on testimony from people who couldn’t plausibly remember what they saw in any kind of detaile, evidence that law enforcement was willing to pressure people and evidence that so many of these people were just plain scared. So, yes, these witnesses were evidence, but not the kind of evidence the jury had ever heard.

: Das nächste Mal bei In the Dark.

: You don’t want to walk in the grass near here.

: Oh, no? What’s there?

: No. You’ve got all kinds of snakes in the grass.

: Schlangen?

: Mm-hm.

: There’s a lot more information about these route witnesses and how some of their accounts contradict each other, how their testimony has changed over the six trials. It’s way more than we could ever get into even five episodes of this podcast, but it’s worth checking out. We have it all on our Web site, inthedarkpodcast.org.

: In the Dark wird von mir, Madeleine Baran, Senior Producer, Samara Freemark, Producer, Natalie Jalonski, Associate Producer, Rehman Tungekar und den Reportern Parker Yesko und Will Craft berichtet und produziert. In the Dark wird von Catherine Winter redigiert. Webredakteure sind Dave Mann und Andy Kruse. Chefredakteur von APM Reports. ist Chris Worthington. Originalmusik von Gary Meister und Johnny Vince Evans. Diese Folge wurde von Veronica Rodriguez und Corey Schreppel gemischt.

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