Teach Computing Podcast Ep.12 - PRIMM.wav

Teach Computing Podcast Ep.12 - PRIMM.wav: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Teach Computing Podcast Ep.12 - PRIMM.wav: this wav audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

James Robinson:
Welcome to Episode 12 of the Teach Computing podcast, I'm here joined by Dr. Sue Sentance, who you may remember from episode two of this podcast series almost a year ago now. Hi, how are you?

Sue Sentance:
I'm good, thank you. Pleased to be here.

James Robinson:
Great. And we're here today to talk a little bit about some work you've been working for for quite some time now, but also some of the more recent thinking. And so you've been working for a long time on PRIMM, which is a methodology that teachers can use in the classroom. But we're also going to talk a bit about the role of talk, particularly people talk within that framework, is that right?

Sue Sentance:
Yes, that's right. It's sort of the new direction that I'm taking with PRIMM.

James Robinson:
Super. And I'm going to start off with a sort of question that I've heard you speak a little bit about recently, and that is, do you think that learning to program is in itself intrinsically hard?

Sue Sentance:
Well, that's a really interesting question, because I went to a a conference recently where someone reported on the number of papers that begin with this statement. Learning to program is very challenging and then don't necessarily go into why that is. It's sort of taken as a given, and I think. Yes. I mean, it is it is challenging. We have evidence that it's challenging in terms of the way that students find difficulty in learning it and even adults find difficulty in learning it. But what we don't take into consideration, when we make that statement is does the teaching of it have any influence on its intrinsic difficulty or is it just difficult or is it a combination of the way we teach it and its difficulty that makes it super hard.

James Robinson:
And so I guess that's where some of your work around PRIMM sort of stems from is trying to look at some of the techniques that teachers are using in their classrooms to kind of reduce that friction that may be created if their teaching practice or their approaches aren't really supporting the learners is that fair to say.

Sue Sentance:
Yes. And I think, I mean there are some things that are difficult about programming. You know, you can have misconceptions around, you know, assignment or, you know, the way things work that can really interfere with the way that you program. You can be too focused on the having a program, getting a program to work, rather the process of, you know, what you're learning while you're programming. And also there are so many errors in so many sort of nasty error messages that come up in some programming environment that make you feel very, you know, emotionally, you know, upset when things don't work. So, you know, there are lots of things to add to the difficulty.

Sue Sentance:
But at the end of the day, in terms of teaching schoolchildren to program, we probably some of us might have done, but we'd be a little older now. Probably didn't do that when we were at school. So we don't really have any models around teaching programming for young learners. So that's what we're trying to work, you know, not just me, lots of areas of research around this are trying to look at in research on programming pedagogy.

James Robinson:
And so that's where PRIMM sort of steps in, is that it's an approach and a structure that the teachers can apply in their classroom that that will help. And so we can talk about PRIMM as an acronym in a moment. But what what's the sort of the big ideas would you say behind PRIMM? And we can talk a bit more about what it stands for and how we use in the classroom. What are the big ideas?

Sue Sentance:
Ok, so, yes, so PRIMM does, so I'll say what it stands for to start with. So PRIMM stands for, Predict, Run, Investigate, Modify and Make a we can go into that a little bit later on, but it's based on the ideas that when we started teaching this, we used to kind of use things like copy this code in or model what I do and then do it yourself, which is just very difficult because they leave huge jumps for students. And so the the basic principles that underlie PRIMM are, first of all, that reading code is a really valuable activity and probably be taught, before you write code you need to be able to read it well. So lots of examples of reading code and there's research that says that this is valuable to your understanding. The second thing is collaboratively talk about programs. So there's the important part of learning is being able to talk through what the program does and with somebody else. We've heard a lot about talking to your rubber duck, but talking with somebody else is very useful.

Sue Sentance:
The third principle is this unpacking of the code when we can have languages like Python, which are celebrated because you can write a program in a short number of lines. But that means there's lots of concepts in one line. And what we need to do to help students understand is to unpack that. And then we can kind of reduce the cognitive load by separating out what different bits do. The fourth principle, which relates to reading code, is this idea of having a starter program that's out there that the, as in not written by the learner, that the learner can start from and doesn't have responsibility for if it doesn't work. So that that takes out some of the emotional layer of, oh, this doesn't work and I'm really bad at this and all that sort of thing. So they're just getting used to using a program that's already there.

Sue Sentance:
The fifth thing is then this gradual move into program ownership that takes place over a period of time when as you gain understanding, you gradually take ownership of this program. And then the final principle is put all that together. I keep forgetting that this is an audio recording, so I'm waving my arms around, but all of this together into a sort of structure for lessons that will help learners see that they're going through these stages. And this helps them to learn and also helps teachers to sort of reflect on the way they teach. So those are the kind of underlying components, I suppose, of the PRIMM approach.

James Robinson:
That's that's fascinating. So, I'm gonna, I'm going to include a picture of you waving your arms around in the show just to kind of make everyone feel like they were here with us talking. That's that's really interesting.I think each of those things as well, are things are on their own. You know, teachers may have thought about maybe even done some of those things, teachers may be using starter programs regularly or also thinking about ownership. But actually what I think PRIMM does as a package as a strategy is it kind of brings these all together. And that last point you mentioned, the structure it really helps sort of deliver those as one kind of organised sort of series of sort of learning journey. And so what would a typical kind of PRIMM lesson or series of lessons look like.

Sue Sentance:
So, yes, a PRIMM stands for Predict, Run, Investigate, Modify and Make. So the idea is that you can start a lesson with a a piece of code. You could just be, presented on on a on a whiteboard, or on through a sharing if you're online and students together can look at it and see if they can work out what they think it would do, what would the outcome would be from running that code, not how it works or anything. And they don't need to trace it because there might be clues in the code like, you know, some good meaningful variable names or the shape of the code might help. And that's the first stage. And then the next stage is to run it. So this doesn't mean take it and copy it in. It means literally get the code from a shared drive onto your own computer, run it in the environment and test your prediction to see what, whether what you predicted was correct and then discuss that. And teachers have different ways of doing those activities in the running in a whole class or in the pairs still, or however it fits into your teaching.

Sue Sentance:
In the third stage is Investigate. And this is where you can have I keep saying lots of fun. I don't know whether students would find it lots of fun, but you can really get into the why the code works in that way. Then you start unpacking it and maybe putting bits in with errors and unpicking it or commenting it or pointing out which variables do what. Or can you find one of these? What does that block do and what would happen if I took this line out and what would happen if these lines were reversed? You know, really getting to know the code and drawing the flow of control onto the code, I think is a really lovely exercise. So lots of different things that you can do around investigate. So it doesn't need to be boring. And you can do these through worksheets or through question and answer or through getting children to ask each other questions there's lots of things you can do there. But the idea is to work out why this program does get the output that you've just seen. And the fourth thing is modify. And then when you've got that confidence, you could then change the code to say, well, how would I get it to add an extra one of these or do this a little bit differently and and or it doesn't work very well how could I make it give a better response, etc.? And then you're building and this is when you get gradually get the ownership of this code. And then finally you get to make which really should be a DM a sort of design and make then you get to use those skills to make a new program. And but in doing this, there is something around you know you need to think what your problem problem is you're trying to solve in the new problem, design the solution and then create it. So you need the teachers need to then work out how much gap they can give between modify and make so the students don't lose that confidence and they can go into making a new program using those skills. And that's the structure...

James Robinson:
I think you alluded to earlier on. But I guess listening to that, that sort of tour through that structure. What strikes me is that this gradual transfer of ownership and I think you kind of alluded to that earlier on, to begin with, the code is very much not theirs. And you advocate that it's, it shouldn't be theirs, they should not be given ownership because they're not emotionally invested. And then, gradually, over time, once they become more familiar, and they're going to start to tweak and modify it and then into making their own code, they become the owners of, of that work and that code and they feel more emotionally invested in that work they're doing is that, is that fair enough?

Sue Sentance:
Yeah, that's the idea. And the other thing you said earlier on is that, you know, some teachers might recognise some of these bits in in the way they teach. You know, I was a teacher. I taught programming for 12 years in the classroom and, you know, gradually evolved some of these ways of teaching and also through reading the research it's a combination of practice and practice that I've gleaned from experienced teachers as well. So if you're listening to this, and you think, well, I do a lot of that already. It's not magic, you know. That's right. It's just a kind of practice that that teachers often get to through experience. And I've seen lots of variations of PRIMM. So, Pete Dring has a version called KPRIDE and there's Craig and Dave's TIME and then there's EPIC. So I think there's erm, but they're all versions of the same thing. It's the idea of thinking about the process of learning programming and making sure there are steps in there that aren't too huge a jump from one to the other.

James Robinson:
So that's a really good summary of of PRIMM, Sue. And we'll provide some ideas later of where people can read a little bit more about about that, and of course, in the show notes also. But we're here also to talk a little bit about the role of classroom talk. And I think, you know, there's lots of evidence from other disciplines like maths and science. I found out recently, Sue, that you and I both originally trained as maths teachers. And in those subjects we know that the importance of of classroom discussion and vocabulary. But how can we learn and apply some of that understanding to computing?

Sue Sentance:
Yes, that's absolutely true. I do think other subjects talk about the language of their subject a lot. And there is a lot of research. And what I've been looking at, are two aspects of language relating to PRIMM. One is the the idea that actually talking about your program with somebody really helps you formulate your ideas of how it works. And teachers have said to me, well, when I asked the student to explain the the program to me as they start explaining it, they went, oh, yes, now I can see what my error is, there's something about the talking it through the dialogue that you have that really, really helps that kind of light bulb moment and helps you to understand. And I think we should be putting more focus on dialogue in programming. The other thing is about the vocabulary items. And this is where a lot of the research has been. You know, we have these key words that we need to understand and in order to be able to have that dialogue about, you know, the explanation of the program. So if you think about some of the terms that we use, you know we talk about variables, and outputs and input, and iteration, and parameters and arguments, and print, and conditions, and true and false, and we need to know that at that, that we need to help learners understand those key terms and then be able to use them effectively.

Sue Sentance:
And I don't know, really, in all the reading I've done about programming education, that we really help teachers or learn from teachers the best way of introducing those terms and how we can empower our students to be able to use them with confidence. Because if you've got a handle on the terminology, then you've got more tools in order to help you des... describe what your program is doing and then you're more likely to be able to to debug it. So the language of programming is really important. And as I say that, it's just you know, it's just struck me that there is so much research, particularly in maths and science, around language, and we just haven't really started on it in around programming and actually in computing. Think of all the terms we have in the whole of computing. You know, we just haven't really got there yet in in programming and computing. And it's something that I really want to think a little bit more about.

James Robinson:
I think that's really true. Thinking back to my my maths teaching and my training and my wife's a science teacher as well. So I think we we really understand the value of language. And often when our kids and we or we hear the people sort of incorrectly using vocabulary or being taught vocabulary that isn't quite accurate is it's quite challenging. And I guess as well this is not just about the vocab itself. It's I think, you know, we in our work through the National Centre we advocate teaching, building, understanding of concepts, and it's about connecting those concepts to the vocabulary that represents those concepts accurately, I guess that's what we mean, isn't it?

Sue Sentance:
Yeah. And there's some really interesting research that's been done in the in Cambridge University, in the Faculty of Education around dialogue and. As part of their research, they developed guidance for teachers and for teachers to support learners in how they can, you know, facilitate good dialogue in their classroom. And they've done some research that's shown that these three elements, elaboration, querying and student participation as part of that as part of the dialogue. So basically, you know teacher really engaging in what the student is saying and the students engaging what they're saying actually has an impact on learning outcomes. And it would be great to see in computing whether we could replicate some of those studies.

James Robinson:
And speaking of studies, you've done some initial work haven't you about looking at the role of classroom talk in PRIMM. I think you spoke to a group of teachers and about their experience of using PRIMM do you want to say a bit more about that study. And I've actually got some some quotes here that we can have a look at, but do you want to outline the work you did.

Sue Sentance:
Yes, so this is just at the very beginning and. You know, none of this work is published and it's really still being analysed, so, you know, huge health warnings on it being very early. But yes, I've just recently had you know, been doing some research interviews with with teachers who are really quite experienced at using PRIMM in their classrooms. I've done 20 interviews now and to try and find out from them how PRIMM's working in their classroom. And because in the first sort of interviews we did in 2018 that we have reported on, there was this element about the students are talking the students are talking that they're really using language. I've made language a real focus of this this particular part of this research.

James Robinson:
So from the conversations you've had with teachers, Sue what have been the key themes that have emerged?

Sue Sentance:
So, yes, so I say this is very early days and I'm just I haven't done the, completed the formal analysis, but some of the things that are coming out are firstly that the use of the terms and the practice at explaining how our program works is giving students a language that they can use to express themselves. And in fact, that's the exact words that one of the teachers used. It's giving them the right tools, in a way. I mean, I, I am very influenced by socio-cultural Vygotsky and ways of thinking. You know language is a tool that we use when we're learning, and that's what's happening. The second theme coming out is around the fact that the discussions that students are having, lots and lots of teachers said to me, well, they're having lots, still having lots of discussions. And I know this is quite difficult in Covid times by the way, this this group work and discussion and everything is pretty, pretty challenging now. But the type of discussion they're having is just more productive.

Sue Sentance:
They're getting more out of that discussion because they're actually talking about the program and they are achieving, in a way, high level outcomes through the discussions being at a deeper level. The third theme was around teacher talk around modelling programming. And I had lots of teachers talk about how they introduced the programming terms and at which stages they did it. And teachers are different, some teachers actually liked to put quite a lot of talk in front of PRIMM so they can really explain the the terminology so that students can use them in their talking and others use the predict and investigate stage to get to to really model those terms. But there was a real theme of experienced teachers modelling vocabulary that they wanted their students to use. So they give them the ability to use it later and then seeing them pick that up from their modelling. And I thought that was great.

Sue Sentance:
The final thing was about I think I've already alluded to it, this being able to talk about things in a more a higher level, achieve more because there was more opportunity to discuss and get into the detail of the program. And actually teachers saying that their students were surprising them. But by the level of outcomes that were achieved in the program, they actually could do more in the programming because they had an opportunity to, a. Investigate what was going on. But secondly, talk about it. And then the other and aligned to that is this thing about some teachers were definitely saying they were talking less in PRIMM lessons because there was more student activity, more things to do, and that the students weren't stuck all the time, not so much bringing everyone together. You know, "let me explain that, because five people have asked me that same question". Another teacher was saying, well, actually, it's made me realise that the terminology is so important that I want to really dig into the programming and my explanations are actually more. But then they're more advanced. So there's quite a lot from this that I still can't report on fully, but it's quite exciting and I'm looking forward to be able to write it up.

James Robinson:
And that is I mean, it sounds really interesting. And I can't wait to to read more about the work you're doing at the moment. Is there anything from your, the early stages of your research that you think is would be useful for teachers to try? Even if we are still exploring some of the evidence? What are the things that maybe teachers could be encouraged to try to encourage a bit more classroom talk or focus on vocabulary within within their settings?

Sue Sentance:
Well, I think the first thing to say if you haven't heard of PRIMM and you're listening to this, then just try PRIMM because and use and use materials there're quite there are quite a few. As I said, the NCCE resources use PRIMM because I think the talking falls out of that approach because it's designed to be quite a collaborative type way of of conducting programming lessons with students and collaborating with each other, I mean. But if you know, if you're already using PRIMM, then really think about how you're using language in your programming lessons. So make sure in your lessons you encourage students to give an explanation of how a program works, maybe just to another person, because they might be quite, quite difficult to get in front of a whole group. You can model programming vocabulary to try and and and tell your students you're doing that. We talk about, the research talks a little bit about this idea, about a meta discourse when you talk about the words that you're using. So, you know, this can be, introducing in this word condition. And condition, I mean, I condition my hair. You know, it's a word that's got lots of different meanings, that aren't anything to do with selection. So, you know, introducing language and modelling it correctly to support students and take advantage of the predict and investigate stages to use those opportunities to really help students with their vocabulary.

James Robinson:
And I think going back to meta discourse point there I think not only if you've got that sort of everyday terminology, you've also got terminology which they might be encountering elsewhere in education. You know, terms like variable, have multiple, multiple meanings in different subjects and so on. And like there is quite a few similar kind of bits of terminology like that. So I think being able to draw out the distinctions between how the what the word means in the context of computing versus other disciplines and other subjects, I think that's that's a really important thing. But I think you have to the students have to have a degree of understanding of that terminology, the underlying concept, before you can really get to that point?

Sue Sentance:
No, absolutely. I think it's a minefield the language we use, and it'd be interesting for, you know, if for the primary teacher probably it's you're probably more aware of it because you may teach maths and science and other subjects as well, where you may focus on language in that way. But if you are a secondary teacher, maybe talking to maths and science teachers in your school about how they deal with those issues and how they introduce language might be a really interesting angle.

James Robinson:
Thank you. That's fascinating. So I found I find this this area really, really interesting. And I think a lot of our listeners will too. Just before we wrap up. So, you know, there are lots of teachers out there that are really interested in PRIMM and about encouraging more classroom talk. Where can those individuals go to find out more. You know, I think, you know, I would certainly suggest they have a look at your recent Hello World article and our recent Quick Read from the National Centre. But where else can teachers go to find out more?

Sue Sentance:
Well, there are there is the resources that I wrote for the original original trials in 2017 and 2018 are on the website primming.wordpress.com. And they were written for Key Stage three, but they have been used in Key Stage four as well. And you're very welcome to take and adapt those. For primary Phil Bagge and his website has lots of resources that use PRIMM. Other primary teachers I think may also be sharing resources in on the NCCE resources, you know, the teach computing curriculum there a lot of the programming units use PRIMM in the way that they they introduce programming concepts there. So I think there's there's quite a lot of different resources that you can you can try. And then also, of course, on the primming.wordpress.com, there's some publications, some research papers, if you like, reading research papers that explain the sort of background and the research that the other research this is based on.

James Robinson:
That's great. That's a really comprehensive list or selection of sources that teachers can go to to have a look at. And I think they're all very, very worth engaging with. And so we'll share all of those in our show notes and we will include a gesticulating picture of Sue. So that's been an absolutely fascinating conversation, Sue, I really appreciate you spending the time with me and with our audience today talking a little bit about PRIMM and about the role of classroom talk within it. So thank you very much for your time. We'll be back again in the New Year with another episode. But for now. Thank you very much to, Sue.

Sue Sentance:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

James Robinson:
You're more than welcome and thank you to our listeners. And we'll see you there. Yeah. Bye.

Sue Sentance:
Bye.

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