Episode 2 - Kahukura

Episode 2 - Kahukura: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Episode 2 - Kahukura: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Malia:
You're listening to the Autistic Tea Party podcast, I'm Malia

Cat:
And I'm Cat. And together, we will be your hosts as we explore some of the hottest topics in the autistic and neurodivergent communities at large.

Malia:
We'll be speaking with parents, therapists, experts, educators and more to dig into the more nuanced discussions being had in and about the disabled community.

Cat:
So join us as we sip and spill the team.

Malia:
This is the artistic Tea Party podcast. Thank you for tuning into the autistic Tea Party, AuTeach has so many exciting events happening this summer, one of which is an anti-racism workshop titled Intro to Doing the Work Anti-Racism in a Racist Society. Join Educators Zee, Sadie, and I on Saturday, June 12th, at 1:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time, 4:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. This workshop is designed to expand your anti-racism vocabulary and learn important concepts in critical race theory. You will also hear stories from BIPOC creators for more information and to sign up, see the link in the show notes or visit www.auteach.com. We can't wait to see you on June 12. We are so excited today to talk with Kahukura from @morethanoneneurotype. She is also on Tiktok as I_am_Kahukura, and we're going to be talking about being an educator, but we're also going to be talking about some parenting things, parenting, autistic children, being an autistic parent and the topic of pathological demand avoidance, which was not talked about. And we are so excited to have her with us today.

Cat:
So without further ado, here's the episode.

Malia:
Today, we have Kahukura with us, if you want to, just introduce yourself to the listeners and tell them a little bit about yourself.

Kahukura :
Sure. kia ora I'm Kahukura and I am on Tiktok. I'm I_am_Kahukura and I'm predominantly on Facebook under the name More Than One Neurotype, which is where I do a lot of my kind of educational sharing experiences and that type of thing. I'm mostly OK. So yeah, I'm a late diagnosed ADHD, autistic adult and more recently I'm realizing I also have a PDA profile. I'm a mother of two kids and I'm based in New Zealand.

Malia:
Well, welcome and thank you so much. We're excited. We've been looking forward to talking to you for so long. How do you manage or work through internalized ableism, especially since you've been diagnosed?

Kahukura :
Yeah, it's really hard, I guess I don't I don't give myself judgment when it arises, I just try and notice it noticed the feelings that I'm having, notice what things are coming up. And, yeah, when I do, it's just kind of, you know, where is that coming from? What is that? Let's Look into that. And of course, we're all going to have internalized idealism. We can't not we're in a world the kind of conditions us to be that. So, yeah, we're not we're not bad people if we if we notice it in ourselves. But it's just really important to do something about it.

Cat:
What ways does internalized ableism show up for you if you're comfortable talking about that.

Kahukura :
I think for me the most obvious one is that I had a really difficult relationship with the word disabled. And what what did that mean? What is this word? How does it apply to me and the feelings of the feelings I would get when it was suggested that it applied to me? So I've really had to work on acknowledging that, you know, being autistic and ADHD bit does that does cause me to have a disability when I'm trying to operate and the the world as it is. And it's been really hard. And even to advocate for myself, if you say I'm trying to pick up some medication and be like, can you please just send me a text to say that it's really because I have a disability that makes me calling you in and organizing myself, really, it makes it really hard. And even that was like a major step. Um, yeah. So that's the most obvious one I can think of.

Cat:
Yeah. I think that's a big thing for a lot of people is once you like a big part and the good part of unpacking internalized ableism is recognizing the areas that we can like self advocate. And so whether it is a thing like asking for text notifications or even something as simple as, like wearing headphones, you know, when you go out and about and things like that, it's like I noticed for myself because I'm a late diagnosed person as well, that, like, it genuinely never occurred to me that I could just do those things like that.

Kahukura :
We can actually ask for that. And we're we're good enough. We're good enough. Disabled enough to ask for them.

Cat:
Yeah. We weren't the level of disabled that like and I still find myself unpacking that where like I make communication cards for people and yet I have yet to use those myself and not because I couldn't benefit from it or but it just that I always and internally I'm like, well I'm not like the I'm not the person who would need this the most. I don't need this resource. But the more that I dissect that, I'm like, well, how much of the time am I forcing myself to speak when I've already pushed past my limits? And then it ends up being a meltdown in and of itself because I'm pushing past the limits that I'm putting on myself, you know? So that's a

Kahukura :
I was totally I was totally sorry and I didn't stay like that. But I was actually thinking about your communication cards last night because I had a massive day when I had some therapy, which sometimes you feel really good after and sometimes you feel really like nailed after. And I just recognize that actually I'm not really able to speak right now. And those cards would be quite good right now because, yeah, I could force myself into it and it was just noticing. Yeah, I actually forced myself into talking a lot, I make myself do a lot and, you know, these are the things that we just we don't even realize we do.

Cat:
Yeah. It's like a process of unlearning, which actually kind of leads me into one of the questions we have on here, which is as a diagnosed person, because we kind of got into a little bit about us having needs, but then sort of talking ourselves out of those needs that we sort of after a lifetime of being gaslit by society or our support systems, what is the sort of amount of gaslighting that you do to yourself on the regular? And how do we begin to validate ourselves and our experience when we find ourselves downplaying our support needs or invalidating our own experiences?

Kahukura :
It's super hard because obviously we need to recognize that that gaslighting was very much a survival mechanism because. It's almost like if we can feel how difficult things are and really understand our challenges, that can almost be too much sometimes and it can be very, very overwhelming. And especially when we didn't even know we had different neurology. That's like her brain, just one just normalized us. And, you know, as a way of keeping ourselves kind of OK, so that so much wiring and so much core of ourselves that is gaslighting ourselves. That I think is a game with similar to the internalized idealism. It's OK to have it and recognize it and acknowledge it. And create some space between where you gaslighting yourself and and you're giving yourself a moment of pause to go, OK, I can see what's going on here because, yeah, I think we just take on that role of. Invalidating and reducing our experiences, it's like that happens to us as kids and then a little bit as adults, but then I think we do what the most in our heads and it's a super hard pattern to get out of. And I don't I don't really have any answers of how to do it. I just know that it's going to take time. And, yeah, we need to we need to be kind to ourselves that we to slip up into a lot.

Malia:
Yeah. And it's like so related to like the ways that we were cared for or not cared for because like I know for a lot of people it's like when we gaslight ourselves or like our internal stuff comes up, it's like a form of us punishing ourselves or like hurting ourselves before our caregivers did. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, that stock pattern even in adulthood, so now we get to unravel that. So it's so fun.

Cat:
It's been fun. It's good fun.

Kahukura :
Fun with you, with the quotation marks

Malia:
The air quotes.

Cat:
Yeah. Can you I'm interested to know, what did your journey to adult diagnosis look like? When did you begin to sort of notice or become aware of the fact that you are neurodivergent? And what did that process and journey look like for you?

Kahukura :
I think like a

Kahukura :
Lot of

Kahukura :
People like me, in particular, mothers in particular, the wheels just start falling off and we don't realize until we have children what our coping strategies actually are. So, you know, I would always come home from school as a teenager, as an adult who was working. I would come home and lay on the couch like a couple hours. I would have my own rules around not doing to social events and a weekend like I would do something either on a Friday night or Saturday night. There was just so they would just so many coping strategies and that I hadn't realized until they all got taken off me. All of them were just gone. And I do wonder, and it's not a sign that postpartum depression is a thing, because it very much is. But for me, it never really explained. Like I knew something was going on and I wasn't kind of feeling right or myself. And I think I was actually an autistic burnout. And I wonder how much autistic burnout plays into a lot of what happens after we have babies. And so, yeah, but I threw myself into motherhood and just kept going and going and going. But, yeah, after five or six years, I just couldn't keep doing that. And yeah, it was getting to a point where it's hard to describe knowing that people won't say this, but it's almost like you have a bandwidth of space where you can handle things and recovery really increases that space.

Kahukura :
But motherhood kind of takes it and shrinks it and it gets smaller and smaller. And that's what I was noticing. The things, the things that I could do, the things that I could handle were getting less and less and less. So, yeah, it was like what was going on? Why why can't I? And I often say that my biggest thing was the dishwasher was clean and full of clean dishes and I would just stand there staring at it, wanting to to put them away. But I just couldn't. And I would stand there for like half an hour, just willing my body to to unload the dishwasher and not be able to do it. And yet I was like, what is going on? I just I don't understand. And of course, you know, you go to the doctor and they say, oh, it's anxiety or depression or whatever, but that never really I was like, it's not that. So that was kind of the beginning. And then I think a lot of it on social media, a lot of stuff, particularly on Facebook, because I live my life on Facebook. There were lots of things going around about I think Samantha Croft with her checklist and I was like, yeah, no, this is me.

Kahukura :
Is this is this like is this not what? And yeah, it really took it took a couple years because you kind of see this information go in front of you. You read it and it takes time to digest and you kind of go back and forth and then and then I think you get to a point where it becomes am I autistic, becomes a special interest that you become hyper fixated on. And then you're like deep diving. You're joining the groups, you're watching all the youtube channels, writing books and all that stuff. So, yeah. And then I kind of paused after a bit of it and thought if if am I autistic is my special interest, that's probably a sign that I am autistic. Do Neurotypical people do this? So. Yeah, and it was. That was so there was definitely over a few years, it was a process and I think because like we talked about, we've got all these layers of stuff that we have to kind of work through before we're ready to receive that information. And then before we can, because I was self identified for I started my page when I was self-identified and had that for quite

Kahukura :
A while,

Kahukura :
Like I was only professionally diagnosed July last year. So I had been out, is autistic, didn't necessarily know I was ADHD until lockdown happened. And then my excuse had always been I just didn't have enough time to do things. And I had time and stuff still wasn't happening. So I was like, OK, it became really I think a lot of people felt that that lockdown because for us that not rubbing on your faces, but a lockdown for us wasn't that long. Like it was a few months. So, yeah, it was it was really seeing that during lockdown and getting my diagnosis in July. So yeah. Relatively recent, but also had kind of been in those spaces and listening and learning for a number of years.

Cat:
And I love the aspect that you brought up about postpartum. Mood disorders or things of that nature and whether or not like I mean, obviously, of course, it can be both at the same time, both can be true. But I I was reading a book and I can't remember the name of it at this point, but they said when they mentioned that, like, the infant stage is like the hardest. And I really resonated with that personally just because I think there is so much sensory overload that comes with like like you said, like your ability to recover, your time to recover disappears, your ability to have quiet gone, your ability to not have to smell diapers out the window, you know, and so you're just kind of like inundated at every turn with sensory overload. And I think that that can, at least for me, autistic burnout and meltdowns, like they look pretty similar to anxiety and depression. And I think it can make it really hard for people to determine. What's what and can also can also almost extend that process of because we do get misdiagnosed for so long as someone with generalized anxiety or depression or BPD or anything under the sun, but autism and like motherhood sometimes can act as something that prolongs that as well.

Cat:
And I notice the same thing happened during quarantine. My child was going to school, and so I had about eight hours a day that I was able to regulate and to catch up on things at my own pace and to have quiet and take naps. And then now for over a year, it's been I have not had a moment alone in the year. So I deeply relate to you on that, and that kind of leaves us at screen time, particularly in it for moms like screen time for a lot of us as neurodivergent moms, moms in general and for Neurodivergent children, screentime is really something that is actually very regulating. But that idea can be very controversial because a lot of the current narrative is that, you know, it's it's causing problems with children's cognition and their development and their development of social skills and all of these negative things that you hear about it. But can you explain a little bit, because I loved on your Facebook page where you said you were talking about how it's ableist and neatly alienates a lot of Neurodivergent people and then kind of like what some of the actual positives are of screen time for children and for neurodivergent people.

Kahukura :
Yeah, yeah. Because I think definitely there is a big thing about screen time being bad. I honestly don't really understand it. I think, like, if it's not to say that we can't get hyperfixated and be on our phones and stuff like that and children can do that, too. And I think it doesn't help that some of the children have interoception challenges, which means that they can go on a screen and not eat and not drink and not go to the toilet. I mean, I'm an adult and I can struggle to also as a kid before screens. I also did that. So it's not a it's not a screen problem that's like that interoception thing. But in terms of how screens can help. You know, the world. Basically, as soon as I leave the house, I'm compromising, I'm being inundated with things and in sensory input and expectations and demands that go against what I'm OK with, and the same with our children. Right. So, I mean, and some of them, especially if they're a sensitive kid, maybe they can handle it a bit more. But for sensory avoidant people and sensory overload and children, you know, everything is hard when I leave the house and they can handle it to a certain extent, but it's still more load on them when you're sitting on a screen like your own control, which is a lot of things that children don't have, they don't get to control much so they can control things. They are in charge of what they're you know, within a certain extent, they're in charge of what they're doing. And again, what they're playing, what they're watching. There's not a bunch of demands on them.

Kahukura :
There's not a bunch of expectations. They've really been able to. Yeah, explore and do what they want to do on their own terms in a way that doesn't have so, so much of a it's not making them compromise as much. So, yeah, we definitely use it for recovering. Like, when we go out, it's just we come back home and it screens to help kind of regulate and recalibrate and also for learning. And like there are so many, especially things like Minecraft, like Minecraft is is amazing. And if you've got children that aren't necessarily raiders of writers, um, they have or they don't like drawing, you know, they have this ability to create and express themselves in ways that they are not able to off a screen. So I think it really it really takes away a lot from them when we don't allow them to have that that way of expressing in, you know, even socializing with other people, you know, children. And quite often, you know, though, they'll connect with each other on games and then play and then talk and and, yeah, it doesn't look like playing a game of something outside face to face. But, you know, that's just one way. And that way is shown as the best way or the. The most correct way, but, yeah, that really ignores that some kids just aren't into that and yeah, some kids really thrive with screen time and learn a bunch of stuff and love learning facts and the things that can come out of children's mouths when they've been watching nature documentaries, for example. Like it's yeah, it's really awesome.

Cat:
I think it allows for like a level of parallel play to which I think is really in place and a lot of children, because as a parent, like I may like, I avoid Minecraft because I hyper fixated on that. Like like I started playing with my daughter and then I was just like, no, because, I mean, it's like the the satisfaction that you get from building like perfect squares. And that game is like God level. So it just basically is all consuming for me. But she also loves to just show me what she's built and show me how she interacts with, like her world that she's created and the amount of creativity that you can see and that they share with you even just by sitting beside you. It provides like a level of parallel play and a way for them to share their inner workings in their interactions with you. And I think Minecraft amazing for that. I love I stan mine craft

Kahukura :
And I mean, I don't like I don't that sort of stuff doesn't interest me at all. But my kids love it. And yeah. So I have a child that loves creating and doing I guess doing what you what would you call them. Like playing and survival and really playing it like that. I mean another child that loves making nice houses, selecting, selecting the outfits that the people are wearing is very, very important. Like that's the most important thing to them. So it's been interesting seeing how there are so many open ended ways that it can be used. But, yeah, you're right. It's almost like it's a connection thing where here's my thing that I'm into. And if you want to connect with your kids in the end to go to games of Minecraft, there's nothing like sitting down and letting them explain to you. And then they like, yeah, this is awesome. And it's a really nice thing you can do with them.

Cat:
Yeah, I

Malia:
Love the dialogue, but I want to talk about PDA so bad. So because the first time that. I saw anything about pathological demand avoidance and like that profile of autism was on Facebook, it's there's only one person I know of on Tiktok who talks about it. But after I started reading about it, I was like it was literally like seeing my whole childhood and a lot of memories that I didn't know that were not there anymore, like Flash before me. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. Like this person, like, just told me all about myself and like, they don't even know me and how like, why isn't this a part of all of the other literature that is, you know, you can throw a rock and it'll land on, you know, whatever most people you know, and they read about autism or what they know about it is that we are as children, you know, maybe where we're really quiet and weird and not that we're not known for just saying no to everything and or like having like just like the automatic no is not. Mixed into that, so can you talk a little bit more about that and

Kahukura :
Yeah, sure. So I'm fairly new to PDA and I guess everything that I know and everything that I've learned come from predominantly two people. And that would be Kristie Forbes, who is on the Christie Facebook Facebook, who is also on Facebook and possibly the other person you're talking about who's on Tiktok. So he pretty much does lots of videos on that. He's I've not saying anybody also talks about it. So, yeah, they're the two people that I have learned from and basically because I relate so much to them as people and how they are and what they say. And I've always. Yeah, and I guess like these all these other acronyms, like ADHD doesn't really it doesn't necessarily capture what it's about, but just that. Feeling that there's a demand or an expectation and how that how that instantly brings up, like even if you want to do something, even if you were about to do something of someone, then has the expectation that you're going to do it like it ruins it. And my memories of this and I've always known I've had this like say I'm getting out to make my husband a cup of tea. And if he just says, oh, could you make me a cup of tea? I'm like, no, I was I was just about to but you've ruined it I don't wanna do it now.

Kahukura :
Now, that one

Kahukura :
Or a lot is a teenager, which would come up would be I'd be walking up to put the dishes away and then my mom would be like, oh, you need to make sure you put the dishes. Why? And you ruined it now. I was about to like it. It's just that feeling that I knew that now that someone had asked me to do something that pretty much ruined my ability to do it in this internal struggle of I want to do it, but now that I can feel it, I won't do it anymore. And it's always been there. And something that I found difficult to navigate because at the same time, I'm very much of fawning people pleaser and they both talk a lot about how that actually does fit within the PDA, because although it may appear on the outside that you're going along with stuff that is also you being able to control how people are perceiving you and controlling the idea, because the whole thing is that you don't like. Well, from my understanding is the feeling of not being in control was very uncomfortable. So if even if you're fawning in people pleasing, there's still an element of you being under and control because you know that. Your your way of doing that is getting the outcome that you want, which is keeping everybody happy, but that's not really you, because on the inside you're not really being you.

Kahukura :
So, yeah, and I think it's one of those things that with ADHD and autism, I guess I read a lot with PDA. I haven't really read so much. I've more just watched people talk about it. For me, that's how I learn best. And there's all sorts of things like being really interested in human behavior, having that really social aspect and being able to kind of see through the levels of bullshit was really resonated with me because I've never felt like I have fit into any particular community, even the supposed autism community in air quotes. I don't really think that as a community there's just a group of people that are autistic and it doesn't feel cohesive like everybody gets on at all. And then with the ADHD community, I think, you know, I don't really fit in there because I can feel as an autistic person, I can feel some stuff going on in there that doesn't sit right with me either. And I've always kind of put it down to I'm just both. So that's why I don't fit in. But apparently it is a very common experience to not fit into communities, because as soon as these communities, there's expectations on how to behave and we don't like that.

Malia:
No, not at all. Not at all. One of the one of the things about it that that I've seen Kristy talk about, you know, because she does talk a lot about being a parent and how she changes the language and how she talks to her children so that it's not, you know, don't forget to do the dishes. She uses other language that's kind of like asking the question. So they'll answer and like give asking questions in a way that keeps them in, like, I don't know if this is the right word, but like in the power position of being able to say yes or no or like in a position where they're like, well, that was my idea first. So of course I'm going to do it instead of making it a demand, which I do like and also recognize in myself that like sometimes if people break anything up, like, I'm just going to be like, no, I see what you're doing. And I don't like that either. So don't even try to be nice to me. You know that if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. So like, I have a love that she has like these techniques, but then like at the same time and like, maybe it's because I'm an adult. So, like, you know, I didn't have the opportunity as a child, but I'm like no people should probably just like, not talk at all. Maybe maybe that would be helpful,

Kahukura :
Even with the techniques. It's like I can still say what you're doing. And it just made me think of, you know, when I was a kid at school, like when I was like five and I'd give you these books to read and. There were just stories of nonsense, like to me, they just like they just they had no purpose. And I remember thinking, I know why you're getting me to write this book because you want me to read. You're just trying to manipulate me. You're just trying to get me to read like I could see the demand. So I was like, I don't want to read that book because you you were just wanting me to read for the sake of it. I can see through you. You know, and, yeah, just stuff like that, we're very we're very even like reverse psychology and stuff like that, that doesn't really work on these kind of kids because they're like. I know what you're doing.

Malia:
It's like this, how could you be so direct if you're like if you're talking to someone with the PDA profile, like if you're not going to be direct, just stop. This is a sugar free zone when you're talking to the P.D.A people.

Kahukura :
Yeah, yeah, and then equally, like, we're all like trauma and stuff, so then we all get like rejection, sensitivity. So it's so hard to navigate

Cat:
How did we all make it here is what I'm wondering at this point in time. How are we also here? Because that is like it makes you wonder if there's a level of like like this profile is not being extended or understood as like symptomology. Of autism and rather just sort of like a pathological like, oh, no, they just have to disagree about everything because they're just, you know, being rowdy and out of hand and like, they're an untenable child.

Kahukura :
And when you think about it. Right, like imagine pathologizing something because. You just only do stuff you want to do.

Kahukura :
Like how?

Kahukura :
Like all this child is so disobedient and everything that I tell them to do would will always resist and like a mission like it just seems so strange turning that into and pathologizing, using that into some form of deficit. Like, I think that's fantastic. Like it's hard to navigate when you're trying to parent that. But, yeah, I think that's I think these tend to be the children that do school refusal as well, because they just like not I mean, in saying that I was more of a fawner and I think, you know, social gender roles really play a part of that because really all little girls are meant to act a certain way and our society. But yeah, you either have the fawning, which was my thing of I am just going to figure out what a teacher wants and I'm going to do what they want to do, because in a way like that's my really controlling the situation or yeah, you have the children who are like, no, I'm not going. And I mean, we've we've never done any type of child care or anything like that. My children are all homeschooled because I know that they would be totally resistant to doing anything. It just wasn't worth it just wasn't worth even trying.

Cat:
And it seems to me like all the therapies and the possible heavy air quotes, solutions or coping mechanisms with like a PDA proof are things that are compliance centered, because at the end of the day, it's still not about understanding where the behavior is coming from, why the behavior is present, but the outcome being compliance, which, as we all know as disabled people, is actually a really dangerous. And kind of slippery slope to teach your children, because a lot of ways when when that is when we are compliance minded, it can teach us, especially as autistic people, to bypass our own inner safety mechanisms. And the things that would occur to us to be like this feels wrong. But after a lifetime of being told to comply with authority figures or things like that, it can actually put us in really vulnerable situations that can be dangerous down the road.

Kahukura :
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Malia:
Well, and like when you say compliance, you like there's that. And it's also when I hear it, it's like, sure, we want people want kids to be compliant to a certain degree to accomplish certain tasks. But I don't hear the question of like. How? Like, how controlling are you actually being in this, like how how much of this desire to have a compliant child is in comparison to, like, how controlling you are? Like how how much of this task needs to be done in a certain way? Whose standards are these and why are they here in the first place?

Kahukura :
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like a lot of a lot of the conflict and tension that can come up between parents and children is how do I get them to do this? And, you know, and that's. Whenever someone asked me, how do I get into this, I'm like, you don't you learn more about their brains and then you do some reflection on why that's triggering for you and then you grow as a person. And then you learn to, like, figure it out and be okay. Because it's not it's not it's not just, you know, especially as children get older, they you realize as I get older with age stage, the amount of control you had, you think, oh, I was actually more able to control them and that slipping. And now I have to up my game and and by up my game, I don't mean learn how to control them in a different way. What now? I have to really work on some kind of collaborative parenting where we're working together as parent and child rather than I'm telling you what to do. And you listening to me in a lot of people, that is such a foreign concept for them because it's all based on I told you to do something and you're not doing it.

Kahukura :
And I now need to figure out how to make you do it. Well, you know, children, there aren't human beings with their own personalities, and you're just going to get more friction if you're determined to figure out what you're either going to break them or have a whole lot of tension. Yeah. So it's it's parenting is all about whenever someone has. Stuff they're trying to figure out with your child, and that's not to say that because I know a lot of the narrative can be, well, your child is only acting like that because of how you parent them like that. It's not ADHD, it's bad parenting, it sort of thing. And that's not what I'm talking about. It's more if you if they acting in certain ways and it's getting like there's lots of meltdowns and there's lots of conflict as parents, we're most often the source of that because of how we are parenting. And it's a hard pill to swallow. But when you're tearing your hair out thinking what is going on with this child, the answer is usually in the mirror.

Malia:
And like having that kind of collaborative relationship with a child. Any children, if you're like an educator, like a teacher or something, I feel like it humanizes you as an adult because this model of like controlling children like it, it separates you, you know, and it's like it's also like kids grow up. They're like, well, when I'm an adult, I get to do this, you know? And when you're collaborating together, like there's so much more of you, that's a part of that process. There's apologizing. That happens when, like, you go too far, you know, there's there's options. That's happening. There's like this message of like you can make this decision. Just because I'm the adult doesn't mean that you can't be part of it just because you're a kid like you can. Absolutely. You know, and like you can think like kids have the ability to have very complex thoughts and, well, giving them a place to express them like it creates I don't even know. It creates a lot of amazing things.

Cat:
And I know that feeling of hopelessness like our helplessness. Sorry, you know, where like they feel like they're at the mercy because like you brought up with the power structure in the hierarchy between parent and child, when you start to maneuver that away and I'm not saying like have pure relationship with your child, but when you move it into a place of respect where you say, I do understand that you're your own autonomous person and I respect what you have to say and obviously where it is developmentally and cognitively appropriate, but you can give them the input and things like that. And then then it takes away it gives them that intrinsic motivation and takes away that feeling of helplessness like they're at the mercy of the person who's in power and their choices and decisions.

Kahukura :
Yeah. And it's I think it's so particularly for the parents at the moment. A lot of us went right this way. So are learning alongside our children how to even how to, you know, like regulate our feelings, even acknowledge our feelings, know our feelings like this. So much of this that is new to us because they wouldn't have had the tools that were given to us. So you set about apologizing like I am by no means a perfect parent. And I get it wrong a lot of the time. But something I do is apologize and. Just yet to know that people do make mistakes and we don't need to cut them off just because I make mistakes, obviously within reason. But yeah, just to really, I guess, role model that. We can make a mistake, we can apologize and also we understand that when we have meltdowns, some stuff does just fly out of our mouth, because I know for a lot of us, especially who are late diagnosed, I'm sure, as we've had those moments where. At a point of vulnerability and overwhelmed with done something and people just do not forgive us and they don't you know, they don't even know like we don't even know it was a meltdown, didn't know it was a meltdown. They didn't know you just get all this really out of character for you or whatever, whatever. But it was never really any acceptance of it. It was like, well, you have stuffed up and now you cut and we're not going to forgive you for any of it. So it's really role modeling that we can have these emotional outbursts and we can do our best to kind of manage them. But equally, that doesn't mean that you're not forgiven and you're a bad person.

Cat:
100 percent, that was beautifully said, thank you. Completely agree. No, I think it's just so you're bringing up so many important points that like. That moving towards a model of parenting that allows grace and space for emotions and feelings and restoration and growing as opposed to behavior, compliance and like in any power struggle, is always going. It's interesting to look back at how we were raised and go like how did that ever make sense to people, you know? And also explains, like a lot of my therapy bills. And it's really important to break those cycles. And I think it's the things that you are talking about and the way that you do things is really helping a lot of people and parents do that. And so thank you so much for that. And it's really important work.

Kahukura :
You know, I think and it's I mean, and that's what I'm always open about, too, is that I'm learning on all of this. And I yeah, it's all just from experience and trial and error, but. I still I still absolutely have my moments, and I guess that's a lot of it is because of that lack of emotional regulation, that lack of knowing myself that it can be you know, there's nothing more triggering than saying your child or something that you got punished for. Yeah. And you might not even realize that that's the reason why you're snapping at them, because that takes a that takes a layer of work. It also takes a layer of assessing how you're raised. And I know a lot of people like to think, oh, no, it was all fine. Like I had a great childhood. But, you know, and I understand that a lot of the generations before us had their own stuff and we're doing the best that they can. But yet acknowledging that the way we were raised really didn't help us navigate our neurological identity pretty much at all, to be honest. Yeah.

Cat:
Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I did want to ask you about that I came across on your Facebook was this idea of neurodiversity washing that you were about to ask your opinion on this, because so from my perspective, I understand things like green washing. Right. Or health washing or whatever, you know, where people are like, oh, it's healthy. And this not it's organic, but like organic. I mean, a lot of different things. And like, it doesn't mean that it's better for you. So when you use the term neurodiversity washing, what does that mean and how do you spot it? And why is it why is neurodivergent the washing a problem?

Kahukura :
So as someone that can really struggle to find suitable things for my children to do, there are I guess there are kind of key things that you look for to see if it's going to. So the list is pretty small because I can tell you that the majority of things go against the neurology of Neurodivergent children. But yes. So you can say stuff like things that there's lots of space. There's not like Freeplay in that type of stuff. And the that's all cool and these things can look like they're going to be really great for Neurodivergent children. And often they will say that, you know, every child is different and and they're going to take all children's needs into account. But often you can see things come up that kind of go against that, so it's almost like, yeah, we've got this awesome thing, it's going to be accommodating for all kinds of children. But actually, look at me when you're talking to me, I need you to sit still and listen to this. Even even so far as saying stuff like whole body listening. Yeah. Yeah. That is just so against that. So against. The neurodiversity movement that's really not acknowledging that different people listen in different ways.

Kahukura :
So, yeah, I think it's hard because especially I think I'm in a privileged position where I am around my children a lot. So I feel like I'm. I find it easy to pick up on small, subtle things. Plus, I'm always around. So when the interactions of things happening and activities, I'm there to witness it so they can be things where i'll say it when There's an expectation of a handshake and staring someone in the eye to say good morning or say good bye. And that's really and like being able to see children be really uncomfortable with it, bringing that up and then not being listened to. It's really that saying that something is accepting of all children, but it's not accepting certain children. So it's super frustrating. And yeah, there there are activities that may sound like they're going to be fine, but it's not really until you get there and you say what the what the actively practicing that you realize. Actually, that's that's not that's not actually inclusive at all. I would say that the majority of things are not inclusive. It's very hard to find an activity that is inclusive of all kinds brains. Just super frustrating. So frustrating. Yeah.

Cat:
So the labels themselves can be really misleading, and that's something parents should look out for because you can put your child in the position where you might feel more comfortable dropping them off at a built for everybody class and then have them experience the same level of ableism and exclusivity as they would in, you know, what we would consider just like General.

Kahukura :
Yeah. And and our children won't always be able to articulate what it is that is making them feel uneasy. Right. Because, I mean, even as an adult, we can be in certain situations and then leave and be like. It just didn't really feel good and I don't even really know why, and it can take time to process. So, yeah, it is really hard and I think neurodiversity really has become a buzz word. I know that our media here in New Zealand has started using it so much, particularly during April and now using that incorrectly. But it was like, yeah, we're going to really show similar to greenwashing. We're going to really show that we are that we understand this and we're using this new buzzword. But just it's just empty if you're not listening to someone who is autistic, brings up something about an aspect of an bit. As harmful for Neurodivergent, and you don't listen to them. Then what are you even doing? And I like this, if this is your first this your first task, are you going to listen to an autistic person about what's harmful, about harmful to autistics? And if the answer is no, then like, you're just. Yeah, it's just a facade. Yeah.

Cat:
So another thing that's been kind of interesting in the autistic community is that I know you're familiar with the idea of toxic positivity and it's a problem universally and a lot of different areas and people's lives. One area we do see this show up in is in the autistic community, the ADHD community, where we do hear the superpower rhetoric where, you know, this is like my superpower and I can do X, Y, Z because of this, which is fine and great and amazing that people feel that way. But there is also people that are more disabled and people who don't view their disability that way for a number of reasons. And one being it's not socially safe for them, it's not safe at home for them to feel those things. They are more disabled, that things were less accessible to them. The list can go on forever. And that sort of superpower label can feel really exclusionary to a lot of disabled people, but at the same time, being proud and being OK with and embracing your neurodivergence. Is also something that people have the right to do. So where does the line cross from toxic positivity to embracing your neurodivergence?

Kahukura :
Yeah, I think and I think this is where a lot of people outside the kind of identity perspective of being autistic. So you obviously have people who have that kind of medicalized view who will say, I have ASD and really view it and that sort of way like it is a disorder, a condition. And then you've got the identity perspective, which is obviously I'm autistic. And I think there's perhaps some misunderstanding that being proud of your identity, it doesn't mean that you're not acknowledging the very real challenges because, yeah, they are very real. They are very real challenges. We can be very disabled when we're autistic and ADHD. And yeah, I really feel like. The tension is kind of been as the tension tends to be from people misunderstanding that being happy about who you are doesn't mean you don't acknowledge challenges. Equally I think it's easier to have a view of our neurology as a superpower if you've got a lot of privilege, if you've got a lot of money, like I could be doing amazing things if I had like someone home schooling my kids and someone cleaning my house and someone doing taking all that load off me, then, yeah, I could it could totally be a superpower. And, you know, the people it always seems to be the same demographic of people saying that it's a superpower talking about it like, oh, you just need to find how to, Yeah. How to harness your superpower and then you can really use it. But yeah, it's it's always basically affluent white people

Malia:
Like the superpower conversation at times. Is like a way to make disabilities palatable to like the abled gaze. I mean, like, yes, I have ADHD, but like, it's not that bad because I can organize my house, like, top to bottom. And so to somebody who doesn't have ADHD, they're like, oh, wow, that is amazing. But at the same time, in that conversation, like as amazing as that is when we are in, like, the crashed burn out. Phase of that cycle or whatever, or feeling anything else that is like the disabled part or the parts of the condition, your diagnosis that are that you're not able to do like that is left out. And so these people who don't have the diagnosis are like, oh, yeah. So that looks great. Of course, we accept you now. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Kahukura :
And I guess it sort of ties in with everybody loves us when we're quirky and fun and yet, like doing all the things. But, you know, as soon as you say the down or the down side, will you say the the burnout. You say the meltdowns. You say that then all went see the ADHD.

Malia:
Or as soon as you see the disability.

Kahukura :
Then you know, it's it's not. Oh well. ewe. So yeah, it is like the

Malia:
Superpower stuff

Cat:
I would love to do.

Kahukura :
Yeah exactly.

Malia:
Yeah.

Kahukura :
I mean you give me, you give me a whole bunch of people to do all the monotonous stuff. Yeah. So like and it's the thing I'm like I have so many ideas, there's so many things that I could say would be awesome and would do really well. But you know, I can't, I just don't, I don't have the ability to follow through with it. So, yeah, some people who are doing all that successful stuff or capitalist successful stuff. Yeah, sure. I could be that too if I had a bunch of support and had way more spoon's. But that's not the reality that I live in.

Cat:
And it seems to me that those two things are like inextricably entangled, like capitalism and this like super power narrative because it always ties back to productivity and this ability becomes such that we can no longer like perform like capitalism than that. Then those are the unromantic those are the those are the parts that nobody wants to hear about. You know, everybody's like, oh, I'm so OCD, you know? And because they, like, clean their house or they like to put things in certain places. And meanwhile, I'm like, I'm so OCD that I am trapped in a audio loop in my head and can't leave my house. So that's not working great for me. But super glad that you know where your keys are.

Kahukura :
Yeah, yeah. And even like yes, I have a bunch of information on my special interests and yet, like, I'll help you and talk to you about a lot of that stuff. But as soon as I say something awkward or inappropriate, I don't like that anymore. So I find, yeah, people almost like harvest. They the palatable parts of us. Yeah. But that's that's really not full inclusion and acceptance. Like, you know, you have to you have to also accept me when I just say awkward things at an appropriate time.

Malia:
Yes. Or when something you said five minutes ago is now something I'm scripting with, like I'm sorry but it was great. You said a great line. and now I wanna say it

Cat:
900 times

Malia:
Exactly. And also like what you said about like this is my reality. Like, I want to do all these things, but like, I don't have the spoons and I don't have the support of the access to be able to be in a place to do that. And that is not always a complaint. Sometimes that's just the reality. And that that's also OK. And like some people can't accept that, you know, toxic positivity coming in like, no, no, no, just change your mindset or, you know, no, no. Like, you know, and then and then trying to get you to do hire a coach or whatever, like also like. Did you not hear the part about the access? No, like, you know, it is hard for I think even maybe even a fellow person who has the same diagnosis to sometimes just sit with that with you in that reality sometimes.

Kahukura :
And I think although. I think, too, you've got other aspects, like if you don't have a whole bunch of colonization and your ancestry or you're already not dealing with a bunch of intergenerational trauma, like, wow, what a load to not have. Sounds amazing. So I think it is so intrinsically tied with having. Ableism is from racism and white supremacy. I mean, I know and in our culture. Yeah, I mean. Way we viewed things so differently, we don't need to have we didn't view autistics as a bad thing or a deficit, they were the people who would see things that other people couldn't say, you know, would for So like a kind of a spiritual leader or like, you know, lots of indigenous cultures have a different word for it. So they would be the ones that would notice all these patterns and that have that kind of detailed memory and that that know all these things. And they were to know that were the people who would. Yeah. Be respected and they wouldn't be they wouldn't be out in the fields doing all the mundane stuff. They'd be doing all this like other higher level kind of spiritual deeper things because that they would recognize that that was the gift that they had. So, you know, a lot of that got taken away, even recite the whole looking people in the eye. Thing like that is such a cultural thing. So many of these standards, often people don't want to hear it, but it always just comes down to racism.

Malia:
sure does. The root of a lot of things just ties back to racism, white supremacy,

Kahukura :
Not a deep subject at all.

Cat:
not at all.

Malia:
Well. What is something that you would say to. Since we've talked a lot about parenting and children, you know, these these collectives or schools or people who want to create or who think that they're creating these inclusive spaces, but they're not, what is something that you wish that you could say to them?

Kahukura :
Stop and listen to the actual people who it's for, like it just seems it said that that would not be on the forefront of of their minds. But like even recently, I've seen that there was an event that was how to help Neurodivergent learner, and I even said Neurodivergent learners, and I was like instantly, like, you haven't even got the word right. So what else have you got wrong? But you're like, how do we how do we help Neurodivergent learners and. There was no one who was neurodivergent talking, there was an organized by Neurodivergent people. How can you talk about ADHD children and autistic children when you don't have anyone who has ADHD, autistic, talking about it, learning from it like. Yeah, so it just shows how far we have to go that having us be the people who lead our own things is seen as. Not the default.

Malia:
Yeah, if you don't have. The people who have the like, if you're not listening to the autistic people, the ADHD people, the people who have the diagnosis that you're trying to help and you have no understanding, no background of learning, any anti-racism, anything, you're not going to help anybody.

Kahukura :
I mean, you're going to feel good about yourself. Yes. You're going to pat yourself on the back and be like, oh, isn't that amazing? Because I'm helping the children. But like, we can all see what that is.

Cat:
I had a friend say something that was really interesting about that dynamic, whether it is in a racial situation or neurotypical versus neurodivergent folks or able bodied people or thin people versus fat people, that there is like a referee like dynamic that happens like neurotypical people. See themselves as like referees of our communities and our experiences and that they essentially like we play with the outline that they give us, the rules that they give us, they're the ones that make sure that we Play by those rules and you see it play out in like racism and in any of the isms, any of the phobias where it's sort of like whatever the social, cultural, political norm is, that we essentially like the people who are making these classes for kids that are supposedly inclusive or inclusive spaces, then a lot of the times they're not actually going for exclusivity, but rather. More control and to act as a referee to our experiences.

Kahukura :
That's so true, I like I like that because, yes. Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense, dictating how we even get referee. Thank you. I like that

Cat:
That was B, thanks B! we love the we love B, but that is just like a big clarifying moment for me. And I can view it through the lens of certainly like not like a racial lens for myself, but even when it comes to like fatness and neurodivergence and things like that where it's like really the people, the oppressors, the people in power referee how we even are able to experience spaces where there are supposedly created for our freedom, like they still control our rules. They still control those spaces because they've given it to us. They go like, here's your little sandbox and you get to play in the sandbox and like, enjoy that. And that should be good enough.

Kahukura :
Like, I really do wonder how much like for me, if I'm trying to learn something, I listen, I go listen to the people who have that experience. That's just always been how it goes. And I don't know if that's kind of like an autistic PDA thing where I'm really interested in people so like people watching and really paying attention to what people are saying. So I can understand them before I even have an opinion or I've taken things so that, yeah, I don't know whether it ties them with it, but. Yeah, to me, I just think is that like a deficit and neurotypical ism where they just don't know how to listen and learn from other people. Because it just feels like something that I automatically do, why why wouldn't like, of course, you would go listen to people about a subject. You'd go to the people that have that experience. It may be yeah, that's part of their defense, as they just don't seem to know how to do that.

Cat:
We should call it neurotypical disorder and TV.

Kahukura :
Oh, totally, totally, totally. They can't they can't fixate on anything and they just don't know how to listen and learn

Malia:
From neurotypical entitlement disorder.

Cat:
So I think we've created something today.

Malia:
it's a thing now

Kahukura :
Now, I can run some I can do like some educational social stories for them if they really want to figure out how to, like, manage and overcome that.

Cat:
Yeah, but let's make sure never to consult them on it because like we all know that, that,

Kahukura :
Yeah, it should definitely avoid gluten because you know that part of it. So when all the things that have been said to us come out of passive aggressively and jokes

Cat:
Lol just kidding. kidding neurotypicals you're fine. Yeah. No, I love this. Well, initially we had the topic of self care in mind when we were talking with Kahukura and I could not be happier with the direction that it actually took. Like I feel like we covered some serious ground and stuff that isn't talked about a whole lot. How about you Malia?

Malia:
Oh, the same. It was like the conversation took a left turn, but like in the most amazing direction. And it was like such an exciting and needed need, much needed productive. I feel like that's the ugliest word to use to describe it. But I was captivated by it. But it was also such a validating conversation. You know, like every time that I talk about or hear about P.D.A, I just it's like I find out so much more about myself and life and the world makes a little bit more sense. And for that aspect alone, I'm super grateful that we got to talk to Kahukura. Today it was amazing.

Cat:
Well, we hope you listeners like that. And if you have the time and would like to please leave us a review and a reading on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this so that we can bring you more bonus episodes. And if you go to anchor or auteach.com, you can go to our podcast and leave any questions that you have for Kahukura and for us, and we can incorporate them into Q&A episodes. So that could be your chance to be on podcast yourself. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week. Auteach has been hard at work to bring you some of our greatest content yet, join us this summer for 12 weeks of free and brilliant webinars every Wednesday starting June 16th at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. When I tell you that you're not going to want to miss a single talk. I'm not saying that lightly. We've got therapists, educators, parenting experts and more. So head to all auteach.com now to see the lineup and get your tickets to the event.

Malia:
Thank you for tuning in this week, we hope you had as much fun listening to this episode as we had making it.

Cat:
For more information and resources, please visit our auteach.com that a u t e a c h dot com and join our mailing list to stay in the loop about updates and events.

Malia:
We look forward to bringing you a new episode next week. Until then, this has been the artistic Tea Party.

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