Teach Computing Podcast Ep11 - Primary Teach Computing Curriculum.mp3

Teach Computing Podcast Ep11 - Primary Teach Computing Curriculum.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Teach Computing Podcast Ep11 - Primary Teach Computing Curriculum.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

James Robinson:
Hello and welcome to Episode 11 of the Teach Computing podcast, the show that focuses on teaching and learning in the computing classroom. This month sees the launch of the teach computing curriculum. So we thought it was a good opportunity to sit down and talk to the authors of the curriculum and some of the teachers using the materials. We've recorded two versions of this episode, one focusing on the secondary content and one focused on the teaching materials for primary teachers. This episode is aimed at primary teachers. If that's not the episode you want, return to the podcast feed, where you'll find another episode 11. Later, we'll hear from some teachers who are using the teaching materials in their classroom already. We'll also hear from some of the authors behind the content. But first, I started by talking to Carrie Anne Philbin from the Raspberry Pi Foundation, who's been leading this work over the past 18 months. So Carrie Anne on. We we spoke a little while ago about the curricular materials that have been generated by, by Raspberry Pi. I thought it'd be a good opportunity to sit down with you again and just find out a bit more about the project where we've got to and so on. So how, how are you, Carrie Anne?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
Well, we are reaching the most exciting phase of the project in that we have almost written, we're so close this week, we have almost written the entire computing curriculum. That's five hundred lessons. And I was thinking the other day, what is five hundred lessons actually look like? It's always really hard to talk to people what that looks like in terms of documents. And so I did a quick tally and we've worked out there's roughly around three thousand files in our curriculum. Three thousand files is roughly around 40 files per unit, and there are sixty nine units in total. I mean, it's just a crazy, crazy amount of work and such a huge achievement on behalf of all of the teachers who have contributed to this amazing body of work.

James Robinson:
That is a phenomenal achievement. And I'm thinking back to my early teaching days when everything was on my shelf in ring binders. How many ring binders would you say this is going to fill?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
Well, I'm too worried about the trees to count the ring binders, James. Luckily, this all lives online. So...

James Robinson:
It's a significant amount of content out there. It's I don't think it's, it's fair to say that this is the first time that something like this, on this scale, with this amount of rigour and support built into it, has been kind of attempted. Really?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
Yeah. I mean, since the introduction of the computing curriculum in 2014, I'd say this is the first time there's been such a complete comprehensive collection of materials going from key stage one all the way through key stage four. And I think that is what is really exciting about it. It's progression all the way through. It means secondary were able to look at what the primary team were doing and primary were able to look at what the secondary team were doing, and really make sure that they, that they were providing the building blocks to secondary and secondary were picking up the baton from primary to continue the great work.And that's that's just phenomenal.

James Robinson:
It is, the amount of work that's gone in behind the scenes. And we're going to speak to some of the individual team members through this episode. While I've got you here talking. What's the if you look back on the last 18 months, what has been something that you guys have been particularly proud of or something that you think is a real achievement as part of this work?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
Well, I think first and foremost, that we're able to actually meet the scary deadline that was looming you know, not very long ago, if someone had said to you, you need to create an entire curriculum of that many documents in in 18 months. You think, blimey, there's no way I could do that.So I think just that we were able to achieve that is something I'm immensely proud of. It's not really my achievement. I'm speaking on behalf of a group of people who have achieved this.And it's through their expertise, their enthusiasm, their commitment to the project that we're able to be at this point.I mean, I have a lot more grey hairs than when I started, and that's nothing to do with my age. I swear. It is purely this project.

James Robinson:
We'll make sure we include Carrie Anne's age in the show notes for those that aren't and I don't know the question that we were going to ask. So there'll be there'll be a bunch of teachers that are listening to this podcast now, what is it that you hope those teachers can take away from this this piece of work that we've achieved? What do you hope it does for them?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
My hope is that it lightens their workload.I think for some teachers who have been teaching computing for a long time, they will be fully skilled. They have taken the computer science accelerator course and passed with flying colours. And I have no doubt that they already have amazing computing lessons.Maybe for that group, it's just to show some of the new emerging pedagogies that we have based this on. Maybe that might be a new insight for them and their teachings and maybe they'll be able to pull that out from the materials.Maybe it's someone who is completely new to computing and just wants to see what's out there and what's available to help them get started that's there.I think if you're a primary teacher and you've had a lot of training around programming and you feel quite confident around programming, what else should you be teaching as part of the curriculum in primary?And I think we do a really great job of providing lessons around creating media at primary and data and information that primary.So I think those are the key things for me.

James Robinson:
And I guess as well, you know, we're providing kind of a model kind of curriculum here. So if anyone in the secondary who maybe hasn't engaged with their primary colleagues, there's a chance here to go and look at what could or should be being learned to primary and vice versa is a chance to sort of look across those phases and have this model set of materials that you can refer to. Cool, well, thank you very much. Is there anything else that you'd like to add in there, Carrie Anne?

Carrie Anne Philbin:
I just want to thank every single person who's contributed to to this collection of material and very specific people that are in my team is Alan, Rebecca, Ben, George, who contributed most of the secondary material in primary, there's famous Ben, Andy, Sway and Josh, who have done a majority of the primary. And then we have some, a set of contractors who have helped us from the CAS community, from our National Centre community and Subject Matter Experts. There's so many to go into detail around. But, you know, their support has been phenomenal. And some people within the Raspberry Pi Foundation, you, James, have contributed in lots of ways around pedagogy, you know thinking about how we can best represent this from our digital team who have helped us launch this new website that helps teachers navigate this content. For people who have read through the copy to check that we've spelt things right and just everybody who has contributed to this, it's thanks to that collective effort that we have such a body of work available for teachers. And I'm really, really excited about it.

James Robinson:
Thank you so much, Carrie Anne. I think it's going to be really exciting to see how people engage with this over the next over the next academic year and start to use this in the real world.

Carrie Anne Philbin:
And give us feedback. Give us feedback.

James Robinson:
Absolutely. I mean, as much as you can celebrate the fact that we're done, we're not done, right? Because any feedback we get, we're going to improve and we're going to iterate and we're going to learn from how these are being used in the classroom. And this is going to be hopefully a body of work that's going to continue long into the future. So having spoken to Carrie Anne about the wider aims of the curriculum content, we spoke to the primary team, the team responsible for the primary content within the teach computing curriculum about their experience of writing it and what they hope it will bring to teachers around the country. So I'm here with the team. We've got Sway, Josh, Ben and Andy, and I'm a kick off with Sway, who's been leading this work for the primary team could you, Sway, describe the primary computing curriculum offer in a nutshell, go.

Sway Grantham:
Yeah, I think we know we've all come from primary teaching backgrounds, so we're very much aware that the primary teacher has so many subjects and they have so many skills that they're constantly trying to balance and do things with. So when we were planning it, that was always at the forefront of our mind of what's achievable, but also how can we help them develop those skills whilst they are planning and teaching the lessons. So really kind of we've designed the curriculum to support everyone. It's made to be as accessible as possible both for the teachers and the learners. So that as you're going through it, you know, there's support for subject knowledge. There's pointers of how you can improve your teaching skills as you're working your way through it. We've also tried to be really flexible, with loads of different schools, loads of different backgrounds. So you can take a project like, say, 3D modelling that we've got and you could apply that to a topic on tudors or you could apply it to a DT project you're doing, or you could do it to something else in your school or just use the the topic that's included in the planning materials. So hopefully there's something there for everyone. And kind of the final thing we did is all of our units spiral. So we revisit the concept each year and it builds on on the progression. And this was really important because obviously different schools will be picking up this curriculum at different stages in their computing journey. And not everyone will feel confident with the same content in year six right now. And what that allows you to do is you can go back to the earlier units and upskill the children and the teachers on their way to get them ready for that later content.

James Robinson:
Yeah. So let's let's turn to the team now. So Josh, Andy and Ben, what do you think? I mean, this has obviously been a really ambitious and challenging project in terms of the amount of content. And we've heard Carrie Anne there is around three thousand documents in the in the curriculum resources. What has been the biggest challenge for you in producing this work?

Andy Bush:
Ok, well, I think I'll I'll go first. There's been many challenges. One of the biggest ones, I think, has been definitions of terms, words, key concepts. So we've spent a lot of time looking at the terminology of computing. Some of it is subject specific, some of it isn't. So, for example, debugging only is really used in computing. And yet you have other phrases like selection, which have meanings in lots of subjects, including computing. So we've had to wrestle with those. We've started off with the national curriculum. We've looked at the terms within it and we've looked at how you might describe some of those terms, how they're defined and so on. And we've also then ended up with looking or finding definitions of words to define other words. So if you want to talk about information technology, you then have to talk about technology. So before you can talk about what the word information technology means, we need to kind of backpedal one step and talk about technology. So we've kind of wrestled with those having done lots of wrestling we've sourced ideas online. We've spoken to other educators. We've endeavoured to be consistent. We've tried to make sure that the terms we use could be used throughout. And then having wrestled with all of that, we then have to make it suitable for the learners we're working with, making sure they're age appropriate. So, for example, do they suit year one's, you know six/seven year olds or the older children depending on where that term is used, so that it's been a pile of challenges, but an interesting one we've really kind of refined the terms as we've used them and endeavoured to be as consistent as we can be and also make them teacher friendly so non-specialist teachers can understand and use them correctly. So, yeah, it's been fun.

James Robinson:
That's really interesting. I know it just occurs to me maybe that that that duality of the sort of the meaning of different terms is particularly important for a primary teacher who might be teaching all those different subjects where those words have different meanings. Whereas a secondary teacher, I can stand in the classroom and talk about variables in my context, not really having to worry too much about how I'm presenting variables in other subjects. So, yes, that's really interesting. And Josh and Ben, how about you? What what were the challenges that you've faced?

Ben Hall:
I'll jump in there. So for me, progression has been a real challenge that kind of goes not just within the computing curriculum, but across different areas of the primary curriculum as well.So if you take it just just for computing, concepts we we've been introducing in units like Computer Systems and Networks have had to be consistent with when we've introduced them into the programming units. That's just one example. Then if we think about it in a more wider sense, we've had to look at, for example, where things like electricity are introduced in the science curriculum, making sure that where we talk about circuits within computing it aligns with the science curriculum or in the maths curriculum. If we're using greater than or less than as operators, have they covered that in maths. So that's been a real challenge and it's been something we've had to kind of continually check. And again, as Andy said, we've we've talked to experts to help us with that, as well as doing our own thing on that as well. So that's been a that's been a big challenge.

James Robinson:
Yeah. And I've seen how much work has sort of gone in up front about exploring those questions. You know, I've been present for a couple of those days where you've where you've spent time with experts and Sway. Was there anything that you wanted to add to what the team has suggested in terms of challenges?

Sway Grantham:
Yeah, I think the other thing is that, you know, we're working from the national curriculum, which for computing is two sides of A4, not very many bullet points, sometimes for curriculum content for four years. So it was a great starting point. And obviously all of our curriculum maps to those standards. But to start with just that and then work out, what does this look like? What are the steps like to get there, you know, relating it also to all those other subjects, like Ben mentioned with progression, it seems it's a very big task. It takes a lot of thought to to get to where we've got to. It's taking a long time, but we're really pleased with what we've how it turned out.

James Robinson:
I think and I think that that's absolutely right.I think, you know, that's been something which was challenging from the very from the very outset. And I think it's right to be pleased with the result. I think, you know, we've focused there a little bit on the challenges. But let's look let's look at some more positives. What are the things that that you're really proud of? I think, you know, this is that this is something that, you know, as an organisation, I know we're extremely proud of. But what are your personal highlights from the last 18 months or so as you been working on this and anyone can chip in there. Josh do you want to chip in?

Josh Crossman:
I think for me, I think I'm most proud of the final outcome, which sounds a bit of a cop out, but this is the first national sort of project of this kind for computing and planning something that starts with Year one and builds all the way through to year six and beyond is a really great first step in developing how computing is taught throughout England. And from a personal perspective, I'm really grateful that I've been able to be a part of that. And as an ex teacher, you know, there were lots and lots of conversations throughout. Decisions need to be made, as Andy alluded to earlier, definitions that needed to be defined. And I think the final outcome is is really, really positive.

James Robinson:
What about Ben, Andy or Sway? What are your kind of highlights?What are you proud of?

Ben Hall:
For me? I think the way we've managed to embed research throughout the curriculum and we've done that in a particularly accessible way, I think there's a couple of examples that I can think of. In the work we've been doing around design. One of the papers we've looked at emphasised the importance of students being able to finish a project, and that being really important to the motivation of the students, so failure to to finish a project is by far the biggest inhibitor of students motivation in the physical computing context. So we've kind of weaved those kind of things in throughout the resources. Another example is in creating the creating media units. We've really, really focused on the process of creating media as well as the end result. And I think that makes the units far stronger because of it. It's not just the skills of doing things, it's the concept of why we do things. So that's been particularly effective and we've been really careful to embed pedagogies wherever we can. So things like PRIMM; Use, modify, create; you'll see those throughout our resources.

James Robinson:
That's that's great and it is a real achievement, I think, to have those that those that current thinking around pedagogy and and practice really embedded and baked into these resources that's great. Andy and Sway, what are your kind of proud moments from from this piece of work?

Andy Bush:
I'll go next. I think it's the fact that actually we as a as a as a team, as a wider team, we've worked very collaboratively on getting these resources produced. It's involved ourselves. It's involved colleagues in other teams. It's involved external writers and it's involved other kind of experts and teachers testing stuff as well so the whole thing has been collaborative. It's also been iterative. We've we've got better as things have gone along. We've looked at things in different ways. We've done stuff we've never done before. And as our understanding has grown, so has the work that we've done. Everything that's gone into it. And I've also I've always been reassured by the fact that there was always a feedback cycle built into this work. So I know that what we've produced, I'm really proud of. But I know we get a second bite that I know we can now go back and have a look at it all again. And even then, I know we will still find ways to improve it. So it has been iterative and it's involved an awful lot of working together to get this done. So, yeah, I'm very pleased and proud of that.

James Robinson:
Yeah, I think that where we are at this milestone that you guys are just reaching now of having the whole content out is really it's a first step, right?It's it's the first point in the journey. And we're going to be iterating this content, I think, for for a long time to come. And I hope it will it will stand stand up for for a long time. Anything that you or anyone else wants to add, Sway, anything in the document if you want to anything you can. Nope? That's cool, and then my final kind of question, I think is, is, you know, obviously you've all had to you've all left the classroom to come and do this work.And that must be quite hard to write content that you're probably never going to teach in the classroom yourself. So if you were looking at your, you know, your academic year ahead, which of the things most excite you? What would you most look forward to teaching? And it could be a particular year group, a topic or an individual unit or even just one specific lesson. What would you be most looking forward to teaching this academic year?

Ben Hall:
Ok, so I've chosen a couple of you ones. Ones are creating a media unit, which is the 3D modelling unit. So that wasn't one. I was particularly closely involved in writing. I did do some reviewing on it. But the reason I've chosen that one is because it's something I've kind of dipped into when I was teaching, but I've never really taught a full unit on it. So I think it'd be an opportunity to explore a probably a broader range of media than most teachers do at the moment. So I think that that's quite an exciting one to go out if you've got 3D printer as well, that would really bring that unit to life as well. So that's a really interesting unit. From the programming units. I think the Micro:bit unit is a really good one to do it's a nice step by step unit, which each week builds on the previous week, there's a number of self-contained projects which the learners can complete and it builds to a sort of independent design and then create a project which which I think would be really fun in the classroom. So those are the two I choose.

James Robinson:
That's just great. And then that's really nice to hear that we've got some 3D, 3D modelling in there. It's a really great part of great sort of form. It's a challenging kind of medium to work in, but it's one that's that's really powerful. Anyone else what what are you most looking forward to teaching, if you could.

Sway Grantham:
Ok, so I'm going to cheat because I actually was teaching in parallel to writing or being involved with the design of this curriculum a bit. So I have had the chance to teach some of these units earlier in the academic year.And there's a year two Computing Systems and Networks unit, which was one of the earlier ones written. It wasn't written by me, but written by the team. And I'd obviously been involved in it being created.And so I was teaching it to my class and I was really surprised by it, which sounds funny when I wrote it. I was involved in writing and knew about it. But the quality of discussion and talk that we got out of very, very young pupils, which we couldn't have predicted that it would go down that well. But I've suddenly got seven year olds asking me if I think there's a computer in a speed boat and having to sit there and go, well, how does the speed boat work? I might have to look that up, but it was really nice to be able to have that experience and be in the classroom and see that. So I feel very lucky that we got to I got to try some of the units before they were fully finished.

James Robinson:
That's great. A bit of a bit of a cheat answer there Sway. But we'll let you off. We'll let you off. Josh, Andy, what about your yourselves? What what have you particularly would you be looking forward to?

Josh Crossman:
I think for me, I'd be looking forward to teaching the lower key stage one lessons as an ex-lower key stage one teacher. It can sometimes be really difficult to teach the learners of that age some of the constructs that come into it later on. So having a well thought out sequence of lessons of when to teach them and what to teach them, I think that's really exciting to have. I was directly involved in the writing of some of those lessons, so just to sort of see how they could be improved would be something I would like to look for. And where they can go from there. I think overall now I'm mostly looking forward to seeing how the lessons are taken and adapted by the teachers in different settings. I think they'll be very interesting things to see and discuss in the future.

James Robinson:
Yeah, yeah, which can be great to see how people use these from September onwards. Andy what's your your sort of jewel in the crown? What's your favourite unit you'd like to go and teach if you could?

Andy Bush:
I think probably there's the computing systems and networks units, and I think it's possibly not that taught in primary. And we've specifically done a bit around year 5 about computing systems. So how is it, for example, that pelican crossings work knowing that there's somebody standing there or not standing there? Has the whole system work together to let you safely across the road? Or how do say Amazon smart lockers work? How is it that something you bought ends up in a locker that you can go and recover or return? So I think there are some there's some use of computing in the wider world that we just haven't looked at. And we walk past every day. And I think that we cover at year two, but we revisit in several places and there's that year five unit revisits it quite a bit. And I think those discussions are interesting because we kind of walk past computers all the time and to have those that learning and that discussion. And actually we use this stuff. How does it work? How does it do that? It's great.

James Robinson:
And am I right in thinking that you did quite a lot of those quite a lot of legwork, should I say, involved in the creation of that unit, Andy? Do you want to tell us a little bit about how we have we collected some of our resources making sure that they were Creative Commons and and so on.

Andy Bush:
Yes. To ensure that things are creative commons, we obviously have to use royalty free resources. And if we can't find them, we have to go and get them ourselves. So, yes, I had to go and visit a local pelican crossing, not stop the traffic lots, but try and photograph full sequences of traffic, passing cars moving, people crossing the road. And I happened to turn around and see a smart locker. So that also had pictures taken. So it's all royalty free. But yeah, I invested some personal legwork to go in to go and get those bits.

James Robinson:
I mean, that is dedication. I think our listeners will be glad to hear how much dedication has gone into the creation and curation of these resources. Thank you so much to everyone. It is a real pleasure talking to you about about the work that you've produced. And it's clear that there's a lot of pride and a lot of you know, personal investment has gone into into this work. So, yes, I hope that we will we'll talk about the the the resources in a year's time and be reflecting on how well they've been received and used in the classroom. Thank you all for your time. Let's do that.

James Robinson:
First, we spoke to Matthew Wimpenny-Smith, a leader in digital strategy and computing specialist at an all through school in Oxford, who's also written some content for the teach computing curriculum.

Matthew Wimpenny-Smith:
They're brilliant. They're just really well put together units of work. They cover everything you need. And the learning graphs are great because you can see where you've come from and where you're going to. And obviously the content is is easy to access and easy to adapt as well. So my plans are that I'd like to I'm probably going to use a lot of the digital literacy side of side of it. I will probably dip into the coding ones, but I because of my curriculum time where I've actually been given quite a lot of curriculum time, I'll have to scale it up a bit as well and add probably some more content into some of them as well. But but yeah, we'll definitely be used for the key stage in key stage one it definitely will and the digital literacy and I.T. units that I'll be using. And because I'm working one day a week, I'll have to hand some of that over as well. So so it'll be great to have good structure to hand over to to another teacher as well. And I would definitely give it to a teacher who's not a specialist like myself, who is perhaps a generalist classroom teacher and say you can deliver this content with a bit of support from me as well. So so I think yeah, I think it's definitely good for that. And what's nice about it is you can see that how it's sort of building the foundations and building on on the, you know, as it spirals around. So it's building on those foundations and building layers on top of that. So and I think that's really good. And I think it's something that we finally have a bank of teaching resources for computing that we know is being put together by these this group of expert teachers from across all phases of education. And then, you know that we are able to then plug that in. You know what I mean, as a as a major plug in to to computing, which is great. And, you know, prior to that, there was lots of great stuff, but it was all quite kind of disjointed, a little bit. And and this is kind of bringing it together and hanging in one place, which is really good. And I think that plus the already extensive resources that we've got, you know, have been developed on the CAS site and and, you know, on TES and things like that, you can really, as a specialist like me, consider themselves a bit of an expert. Although probably not. You can go and pick and cherry pick those bits, and I think that's really good.

James Robinson:
Next, I spoke to Jen McCulloch, a computing curriculum consultant for her local authority, primary teacher and also content author for the Teach Computing Curriculum.

Jen McCulloch:
So because of the coronavirus, we're focusing on the core subjects, so some of our foundation subjects are kind of getting squeezed a little bit, but I think it's fantastic that the NCCE resources have units across curricula. So although they'll be teaching computing like the digital painting focuses on art and the making music focuses on music. So it's a way to teach multiple subjects through one lesson, really. And I think that's going to be key for us next year, that we can hit as many things as we can. I think the resources are really handy for teachers who have no knowledge really of teaching computing. It's really from a basic level talks them through everything they need, the resources are there, the handouts, worksheets, assessment, everything's in there for them. And so just to follow those plans through, obviously they'll be a little bit of finding out how to use the technology and things like that. But to have the actual plans there and to know they're, like, pedagogically sound is fantastic for teachers in the classroom. But when it's free, which is absolutely fantastic, which means you don't have to buy a whole scheme for a vast amount of money, you can actually pick out the bits that you want. If you don't want to use the whole scheme, which is great. It's quite obviously made by teachers or people who have experience of teaching, and that's really important in the classroom because it shows how you can actually teach the resources. It feels like the teachers could just pick it up and teach it straight away. The resources are already made, as I said before, to hand outs to the slide decks. Everything's there for the teachers. The assessment that's included in key stage two is really helpful. And again, the fact that they're cross curricula I think they'll be a lot of schools who are coming up to teaching after the coronavirus, who are going to have to focus on some of the key skills in math, literacy, science, and to be able to teach them multiple subjects and at least have a focus, a creative focus for the children. So if they can't teach art, at least they've got like a flow going through all the lessons as well.

James Robinson:
Our final guest is Simon Dixon, a computing lead and primary teacher of year five at a school in Bristol.

Simon Dixon:
It's helping us to modernise our curriculum a little bit. So I think for the time being, for most Year groups I'm going to do at least one unit and when we when we go back and then kind of go from there. But I probably wouldn't do everything it's just kind of like the areas that I feel like we need some support and we need to kind of be braver. I'll probably go to that because it's kind of ready made and I, really like it and the teachers that've used it so far, think it's brilliant. I introduced for year six, which is the year group I was teaching last year. A Web website web builds projects based on the NCCE planning, and it was fantastic. And it just made it a lot easier because the planning's already there, the resources were already there and we could just kind of run with it. And it didn't require me having to kind of brief anybody on it as we were working from home and the kids would really got into it. And they really enjoyed it. And the fact, it was more because everything's there and it just made it so much easier and I've started. I really love that. And the teachers I know responded very well to it and so did the children and work they've produced was really good quality, considering the circumstances, and I can then start to have a look through the other year group resources and looking at kind of the curriculum that all the year groups are teaching it currently and I've kind of suggested going forward that they start implementing some of the units that you've produced, which is great. And again, they've responded really well. And they're kind of grateful as well, because when they're planning a project, sometimes they struggle with how to kind of make something, a six week, seven week project. And it's just really really good because it's just it's just all there for them. And then they can just kind of use it, change things as they want to but at least a kind of basic framework is there.

James Robinson:
So there we have it, the teach computing curriculum, a comprehensive set of resources that cover all aspects of computing from key stage one all the way through a key stage four. We've heard from the team that created the content. We've also heard from the teachers that will be using the content next year. And it would be great if you could share your experience of the curriculum by leaving us a voice message at ncce.io/voicemail. I'd like to thank our guests on this month podcast episode and you for listening. And I hope you'll join us for future episodes of the Teach Computing podcast.

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