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Hannah McCarthy:
You're listening to Civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy. I had the great pleasure in September of 2022 of hosting writers on a New England stage at the Music Hall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. This episode is an excerpt of a conversation I had with Huma Abedin, longtime aide and adviser to Hillary Clinton, about Huma's book Both/And. Huma gave us a peek into the life of an indispensable adviser of a prominent politician, including stories from the campaign trail. How much time and devotion it really takes and how her life growing up in Saudi Arabia granted her a unique perspective in her role. So here's Huma Abedin, four writers on a New England stage. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us here tonight. It is a pleasure and privilege to be here. And thank you so much, Huma Abedin, for joining us tonight. I am so glad that you were here. Now, first things first. You know, I host a show called Civics 101. I always try to get out the question right off the bat of what someone does for work. Now, you spent so much of your career in this all consuming public service job. What are you doing right now?

Huma Abedin:
Well, I'm having a really good time. Let me start with that. First of all, I'm having definitely an emotional moment being here because. For those of you who knew who I am or know something about my life, I've been in politics for the last decade, 25 years, 26 in September. And when the gentleman picked me up at the airport in Boston, he's like, Have you been to New Hampshire before? And I almost said, I think I've spent more time in New Hampshire than I have in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where I was born. Definitely have. By the way, aside from being here with you, I'm able to find a little more rebalance in my life. I'm a mom of a ten year old going on 17 year old little boy goes by very quickly. We just optioned the book to be made into a television series. So Freida Pinto is making it into a show. And I'm actually flying to Los Angeles tomorrow and for a few other things. But so I'm very excited about that sort of turning because I know a lot of people I used to love to read when I was little and but I know a lot of people won't read the book and might watch it on the screen.

Huma Abedin:
So I'm excited about that. And I'm working on this production company with Hillary and Chelsea. We just had two projects. We have lots of projects going on, but this is really become a new passion project and so one is called Gutsy and it's on Apple. Tv+ Some of you may have already watched it, but it's it's it was based on a book that Hillary and Chelsea wrote, and I was one of the producers for this show. And really for me, this notion of shifting from politics and public service after the 2016 election, kind of this forced kind of shift to sort of reimagine what you're going to do when you grow up. At least that's what I've had to do. And so it's shifting a little bit to storytelling and really enjoying it and and figuring out what else I want to do in my life. And I'm lucky to have a lot of opportunities.

Hannah McCarthy:
Now, one of my favorite parts of this whole book is the beginning, which I actually thought was all too brief a description of your childhood. And as you said, you grew up in Kalamazoo, Michigan. You were born there, and then shortly thereafter you were transplanted to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. And I was reading through your book, and at a moment I put it down and I murmured to myself, This woman comes from remarkable people. For those in the audience who perhaps have not read your book or don't know your story, who are your parents?

Huma Abedin:
I'm a product of two immigrants, an Indian father, a Pakistani mother. And for us, for them, really, education was a religion. They were Fulbright scholars, and they came to the United States in the sixties and they met at the University of Pennsylvania. They were both meant to go back to their home countries to marry people they were betrothed to, but they fell in love and they got married and they moved. My father was a political scientist. My mother is a sociologist, and they said, Well, move over. We both can get jobs. So we moved to Michigan, which is where I was born and when I was two. And this is one of the first lines that I wrote in the book when I sat to write. When I was two, my father was diagnosed with renal failure. And in 1977, in Kalamazoo, Michigan, essentially, the doctor said to him, you should, you know, you probably have 5 to 10 years, so you should get your affairs in order. And I think about it in my father was my age when you know now my age now when he was given this diagnosis. And it's one of the first it was the first line I wrote when I sat down to write the book, which is my father was told he was dying. And so he went out and he lived. And two months later we moved to Saudi Arabia for a one year sabbatical, and we just embarked on this great adventure. Hannah I mean, it was this my parents were so curious about one of the things they really wanted us to number one, even though my father always said, you know, your eyes are at the front of your head for a reason is to look forward.

Huma Abedin:
He really wanted us to learn history and learn about other cultures and places and spaces. That's why the book is called Both. And I mean, this notion of you can be both. And my parents came from two countries that were at war and India and Pakistan. They couldn't go back and live there, which is why they got asylum in this country. But I feel like that curiosity, that sense of kind of wonder and joy about learning and respecting others places and spaces is a real gift they gave us. So a combination of moderation was very important in our family and discipline was really important. But at the end of the day, it was like, We don't care what you do as long as you're educated. You can grow up and be and do whatever you want. And so here, you know, I walked into the White House 21 and had this incredible kind of really, you know, sense of my parents identity. They raised us as and maybe only a child of immigrants can really say this. And every time you say it, you get emotional. And I certainly do. But this notion I mean, we were raised as Americans and most. And faith was a very big part of my childhood. But to travel around the world and to land at airports everywhere, from Turkey to Japan to, you name it, and to land and have that blue passport, I mean that you you carry this great sense of pride at the country that you represented and that we represented. And so I brought all that experience to me when I walked into the White House to work for Hillary.

Hannah McCarthy:
And when your family moved to Saudi Arabia, you're in a very different culture. And you also emphasize that your parents constantly raised you with a sense that you had choices.

Huma Abedin:
Yes.

Hannah McCarthy:
That you were going to be able to be autonomous in your life. How were they able to reinforce that despite a culture that maybe didn't always reflect that?

Huma Abedin:
My mother tells the story that the first time my father says, we're going to go to Saudi Arabia and I was to my mother is like, do they even have diapers in that country? Like, what are we doing? And I think about it. I mean, she landed, you know, this is pre the world of, you know, cell phones and, you know, obviously, you know, computers and Internet. I mean, she was so isolated and so alone and women could not drive and she had to veil herself when she went outside. I mean, it was socially it was a very, very challenging environment. She didn't speak the language. She taught herself Arabic to communicate with her Saudi students at the university. It was really difficult. And I think it's one of the reasons I did turn to writing and my imagination. And and I created these worlds in my head. And my parents always told us, you can do whatever you wanted. But it was. It was not easy. I mean, certainly it was not easy. And I really commend my mother and my father. But this they made everything kind of this little adventure. And and we got to leave a lot to, I think, know, people often say to me, look, how how did you deal with that, not being able to drive and having to be so in such a conservative environment. I mean, I knew I had a way out. I mean, every we traveled so much and I knew I was going to come home to the United States in the summers and eventually move back here. I love that I was able to do both worlds. And one of the things I did love about growing up in Saudi Arabia was this notion, and we call it the Ummah, which is basically translates to the community that ever present community. And what I loved about that kind of environment was that there was always a sense of support and you felt like you were part of something much bigger than yourself. Yeah.

Hannah McCarthy:
Now I'd love to jump back to how you got to the White House to begin with. Yeah, I know that you you start off with an internship in the Clinton administration and you were required to work 15 hours a week.

Huma Abedin:
Oh, yes.

Hannah McCarthy:
And you did not?

Huma Abedin:
Yeah, I did not. Yeah.

Hannah McCarthy:
How quickly did you know that you were the right person for this kind of job?

Huma Abedin:
Oh, God. I never knew. I was not. I didn't know. All I knew was I loved it. I you know, I went to university in Washington because I wanted to become Christiane Amanpour, and I'd seen her eye and turn on the TV. Cnn International had just arrived in 1992 during the first, you know, Operation Desert Storm in the first Gulf War, second Gulf War, depending on your perspective. But and just saw this woman reporting from Baghdad, and she just was first of all, she looked like she came from my part of the world. She was so smart. She was so, you know, I saw her as sort of this, you know, truth seeker. And I just admired her so much. And so I went to study journalism and then got this internship by accident in the White House. I had a friend who was interning for Mike McCurry, and she says, Well, that's how you become Christiane Amanpour, go intern for Mike McCurry. I apply for the internship. I get it. Don't get a job in the press office. I get a job in the first lady's policy office because of my background. And I remember calling my mother and saying, Mom, I don't know how am I going to come become Christiane Amanpour in the first lady's policy office? And she said, well, you know, sometimes planning doesn't work out, but maybe Plan B will be, you know, pretty good. And and she was right. And even though I was raised by a father who said a good life is a balanced life, I did not follow that advice.

Huma Abedin:
I just fell in love with the work. I just I, I very careful about how I use that word that I really became addicted to it. And I was never the best at anything. I mean, there are so many stories in the book of my constant failures. I mean, and, and the attitude in this White House was basically like they tossed you into the deep end and you you either sank or you swam. And and all I knew I was never the best. I mean, I was I was not the smartest. I was not the prettiest. I was not the easiest of anything. All I knew is that I was prepared to outwork everybody else. And and I think that's one of the reasons I mean, I really I mean, I really did succeed. And there's a couple of, you know, crazy stories in the book. Like the very first speech I had to staff Hillary four, and I was super nervous. And I you know, here she is, the first lady. I'm this kid. No one's really told me what to do. And I, like, carry her speech. And I put it on stage and and she goes on stage and I'm at the back of the room because that's what you're supposed to do as a staff person, be invisible. And then she's sitting on stage and all of a sudden she does this. And I thought, okay, this must be really bad. And I approached the stage and she leans over and she says, I don't have the right speech.

Huma Abedin:
And it was the first time that I felt that from like the tip of my toes, like fire up into my head thinking. But that that's the moment when, you know, you either, like, completely fall apart or you say, which is what I said. For the very first time that night, I said, I got it. I didn't have it, definitely didn't have it. But I ran out to the car and sure enough, open the limousine. And there is, while I've been carrying my pristine copy of the speech, there is a speech like with all notes that she had edited the speech on the whole ride from the White House to the venue. And I run up, and by the time I get back to the stage, she's already at the podium and she readjusts the pages, delivers the speech. I expect it to be fired. By the way, when we walked off the stage and this tells you so much about Hillary, and I suspect there are people in the audience who've actually met her and spent some time with her. And the very first thing she says to me is, you should ride in the limousine with me from now on. And it was her way of acknowledging that for this relationship to work when you are the primary person. You needed to know everything that that. And that's how she solved. And that was my first time in a limousine, and it's been 26 years. So it was all kinds of crazy adventures like that. But I survived.

Hannah McCarthy:
And I have to know the Civics 101 in me has to know. When you were described as a top adviser, an aide to Hillary Clinton. What does that mean? What were you doing on a daily basis? What was your job?

Huma Abedin:
You know, and that's, I think, one of the challenges of having such an amorphous job. I mean, it really became this kind of air traffic controller. I mean, so much of it, you know, I always said that in the 2008, if I was the manager of anything, I was the manager of sanity, because so much of it on a daily basis, you're just juggling 100 balls. You know what what do you tell her when how to take somebody through a day, how you deal with your hosts, how you figure out what the right thing to say is. So it's actually it is very hard to describe the job that somebody like somebody like I did, but in part was a sense of getting ultimately your message across every single day, trying to think long term, trying to think short term. So it's it really is a little bit of everything. But it is it's it's hard to describe. I mean, for me, I wanted her to be able to go out there and just do the best job that she can. And then we are you know, we're the feet beneath the duck, you know, just paddling to make sure that everything is is smooth.

Huma Abedin:
And also, for me, a big part of it, I tell young people who work for me now and you're who do what we call advance. I know everyone here knows what advance is. I had to describe what an advance person is when I was in Saudi Arabia earlier. But I would say to my I say to my staff now, when you go somewhere and you're negotiating for event, it doesn't matter if you work for Hillary, if you work for Barack Obama or if you work for Microsoft, if somebody has a bad experience, they're not going to say, You, Jane Smith, are terrible. They're going to say Hillary Clinton sucks or Microsoft suck you. You know, so, so much of it is you really are an ambassador for what you represent. And that's at least how I was raised. And so you can see even 25 years later, I still struggle to figure out how to describe what the job is that I did.

Hannah McCarthy:
Yeah. And I wonder, having spent so much of your young adult years utterly devoted to this individual in this cause and this party, how were you able to preserve yourself?

Huma Abedin:
Well, you know, I was I lived a very I didn't I lived a very for those of you who, as you if you read, end up writing the book, I mean, I, I everything was work. I mean, I didn't have relationships. I didn't see my family. I didn't I actually write about the fork in the road moment that when 1997 I get a call, I'm at a family wedding in Manhattan, this fairy tale wedding. And my cousin was getting married. And I get a phone call from the White House and and my supervisor calls and says, Do you want to go to Argentina to advance a trip for the first lady and the president? I was so green, I didn't even know what it meant. And it meant I would have to miss the wedding. I would leave in the middle of of the of the wedding and get on a plane and go to Buenos Aires. And I didn't even stop to think of it. And I that's my fork in the road moment. I mean, I had one path right in front of me, you know, the snow, this future of family and kids and, you know, or this. And I didn't even know what was down this other road. No, no idea. All I knew is I wanted it. And and so for me, I spent two decades of of work being my priority. And I really and I, I wouldn't change a thing, but having a rebalance, I mean, my diet was horrible. I mean, I literally had like 15 cups of coffee a day. I survived on snack bars and then I'd go to dinner and I would have, you know, two orders of entrees and four desserts. You know, it was it was a really unhealthy it was a really physically unhealthy ex existence. So I'm healthier now at 47 than I was at 37, for sure.

Hannah McCarthy:
You're listening to an excerpt from my conversation with Huma Abedin, for Writers on a New England Stage. There's plenty more coming after this quick break. But first, hello. You're listening to this podcast. Thank you. Seriously, our job here at Civics 1 to 1 is to answer your questions, respond to your needs, and this ever complicated tangle of American government and politics. And we hope that you turn to us with the confidence that you'll actually get something substantial out of a listen if you do and you have the ability. I'm asking you to take a moment. Go to Civics101podcast.org and consider making a contribution to the show. This is public radio. It belongs to you. And it exists because of your donations. Got a little extra goodwill. Cash burning a hole in your pocket. We are a really great place to put that cash. I promise we will do good. Work with it. All right, that's it. And thanks for listening. This is civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy. This episode is an edited version of my conversation with longtime Hillary Clinton, top aide and advisor Huma Abedin for Writers on a New England stage at the Music Hall in Portsmouth. In part because this conversation happened in New Hampshire, Huma wanted to share the ground breaking, or, as she might tell it, glass ceiling shattering moment that presidential candidate Hillary Clinton won the New Hampshire primary. And no, I'm not talking about 2016. I'm talking about the first time around. I'm talking about 2008.

Huma Abedin:
It was one mile down the road where she made history. I like I actually see that. I mean, it's it's just not honored more in some ways because that so this is I'm taking us back to for those of us who remember the 2008 presidential election, I certainly do. It's seared into my memory. But when Hillary Clinton got in and it was a very, very crowded primary, you know, she was the front runner and that she it came with all the advantages and the disadvantages of her being the front runner. And, you know, for those for those of you to remember, I mean, Joe Biden was running and John Edwards was running. I mean, it was a it was a big and we knew we had research when she got in into the campaign that it was going to be hard for a woman. It's one of the reasons why she didn't you know, she did the whole I'm in it to win it and kind of running as the most qualified candidate. And here was then-Senator Barack Obama, just just this extraordinary, inspiring, you know, brilliant candidate. And so we're off to the races. And we worked really hard, invested a lot of time in Iowa. And and then she has this stunning loss, I mean, stunning loss where she didn't come second, but she came third. After John Edwards. So Barack Obama won and John Edwards came second and Hillary came third.

Huma Abedin:
And the entire time leading up to this very, very long, very, very brutal campaign schedule. Like we were reeling. And I recount the story in the book of of of how shocked we all were. So immediately she does her concession speech, which she had not anticipated giving in Iowa. And we immediately get on a plane. And so we land in New Hampshire 3:00 in the morning, January 7th, 2008. And we are basically preparing to lose. I mean, it's now like we just didn't know what was going to happen in New Hampshire at that point. At that point, oh, my God, Like everything went south. And so here we are about 11 points down in New Hampshire. And I remember slogging through that first day and ending up at a rally, if I remember correctly, in Manchester, and Wes Clark, who had run for president himself. We show up at an event and we're all kind of super depressed. And I said, you know, and he comes off stage and he's like really energized. And he said, General, how does it feel? And I because I was my normal question, I was like, why did I ask him? And he puts his hands on my shoulder and he says, Huma. She is going to win here. You can just feel it. And I'm looking at him like he's crazy. And but he did. I mean, he had been in New Hampshire, and it was something that you just you just can't you can't explain it.

Huma Abedin:
But if you're in politics or you, you know, you can feel so. Gave us kind of a little a little bump. But one of the reasons I share the story is, you know, the day had been so long and we get up at 5:00 in the morning and we basically got this message from our campaign manager, which is you should be prepared to lose here and which nobody knew at the time, obviously publicly weren't saying this, obviously. And we end up at Cafe Espresso down the road in Portsmouth. And I was on the bus because we had just gotten this devastating news. And I got on the phone with a few of her campaign advisers and to figure out what are we going to do, like what New Hampshire and South Carolina and Nevada and all this. And I get a knock on the door. Somebody comes running out and knocks on the bus door and says, We need you. She's crying. And I literally look at this advanced person. I mean, who is crying? What are you talking about? Because you cannot show emotion as a woman. Oh, my God. In politics. And long story short, a woman had had got up at the cafe and said, you know, this must be so hard. How do you do it? Marianne? Yes, yes.

Huma Abedin:
I mean, she does. And I really I mean, Marianne should get credit. I mean, it was that moment, that just human moment of how that was the people forget. The question was, how do you do it? This must be so hard. And it was I mean, as cheesy as people might think, this is I mean, she basically said, I do it because I care. I mean, I know I have this enormously privileged life and I see all these problems in our country. I know I can fix it. And that was it. And that moment, that brief moment, that emotional moment. Thank you, Marianne. And it really changed the tide. And so that I mean, sure enough, fast forward to everyone knows history here. She won she won New Hampshire. And it was extraordinary. It was nobody. And she did that. And this state did that for her. And the very next morning, the first question she just got asked is, how do you explain your failures as opposed to how do you explain she made history that night, by the way, no one has done it since. Nobody no woman has done it since. And I that's why I have such a. And so we both of us have such deep. I'm sorry I'm rambling about this, but such deep kind of gratitude and affection and and love and because it was done here.

Hannah McCarthy:
Yeah, well, this I think this is a great question because you actually you speak to how how very much public service and being a civil servant felt like you're calling and felt like the ultimate thing to devote yourself to a member of the audience asks, How do you envision the future of public service poll workers, teachers, voter registrars, etc.?

Huma Abedin:
I think that it is all about passing that passion on to young people, which is why I'm happy to hear that. You say that college students are that you've spoken to are really motivated because, I mean, I even see it in New York when I go vote in Manhattan. And poll workers are always, you know, it's always older, like how I want to make it exciting to young people to be part of take them along for the ride. It's and show you know, I write in the book about really getting to a very, very low, very, very bad place in my life. And, you know, post 2016. And I for some part felt very responsible for her loss. And and this notion of really being prepared to just you know, I had some very dark thoughts and that was that wasn't so long ago was in 2019. And I wrote the book when the book a lot of the writing the book was therapy. I tell all young people, by the way, to write their story. I mean, I think that act of writing is and storytelling is so, so powerful. And frankly, being in politics, what is being in politics, it's telling a story, right? Ultimately, it's telling a story. And to now be this person in 2022 and to feel this much joy and satisfaction and sense of just possibility and and hope is I mean, like, if I can do that, I really do feel like it's it's it's possible for for anybody. And so maybe politics isn't my future. But I, I do feel very hopeful about the future and about our country. And I just think a big part of it is this is just being in community together again and and having conversations and not yelling and screaming at each other.

Hannah McCarthy:
I do. I have to ask you, because I think so many young people really don't think politicians care at all about them, in part because they can't vote under certain age. Right. Their demographic maybe doesn't matter. Are they at all wrong?

Huma Abedin:
I think some people are in it just for the platform. Absolutely. I mean, I would you know, but I think there are there are there are so many candidates, forget running for president, you know, state, local elections who are doing some incredible, incredible things. And I think they should all be honored as secretaries of state and gubernatorial candidates and House candidates. There's a lot of good work and good people and well intentioned public servants out there who should be honored.

Hannah McCarthy:
State and local government, everybody. That's where it's at.

Huma Abedin:
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Hannah McCarthy:
Huma Abedin, thank you so very much.

Huma Abedin:
So much. Thank you all so much.

Speaker3:

Hannah McCarthy:
This has been an excerpt from my conversation with Huma Abedin, longtime Hillary Clinton aide and adviser and author of the book both. And this conversation was recorded live before an audience at the Music Hall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire for Writers on a New England Stage in partnership with New Hampshire Public Radio. A longer version of this conversation will be available at npr.org. A big thank you to everyone who helped put that show together. The musical executive Director Tina Sawtelle. New Hampshire Public Radio President and CEO Jim Schachter. New Hampshire public Radio producer Sarah Plourde, the Music Hall production manager. Zhana Morris. The Music Hall Live Sound and recording engineer. Ian Martin, musical director and band Bob Lord and Dreadnought and the Music Hall literary producer Brittany Wasson. This episode was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy. Nick Capodice is my co-host. Christina Phillips is our executive producer. Jacqui Fulton is our producer and Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR New Hampshire Public Radio.

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