Returning to Federal Service: An Alumni Panel

Returning to Federal Service: An Alumni Panel: Video automatically transcribed by Sonix

Returning to Federal Service: An Alumni Panel: this mp4 video file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Maria DeFazio:
And.

Maria DeFazio:
All right, welcome, welcome, everybody. We are just getting everybody logged in before we start today's Couchella session, so we'll just give everyone a few minutes to get settled. All right, thank you for joining us today, everybody. We're going to give folks just another few minutes to get on since we actually started right on time today, I'm very proud of that. So we'll just give folks another minute or two to get logged in and then we can kick off today's Couchella. All right, well, I am going to get started with some of our general information and housekeeping while everybody else gets situated. Hi, my name is Maria DeFazio. I am the executive director of the Presidential Management Alumni Association. Happy to welcome you here to PMAAs, March, February, March, Couchella. I know it's March, but this is sort of the Couchella for the end of February, beginning of March. So just a few quick housekeeping items before we get started. I want to make sure that everyone understands that the folks on our panel that are appearing today are appearing in their personal capacities, not as representatives of any particular federal agency. They are colleagues sharing advice and information from their personal experiences with entering and leaving the federal service. We are going to be recording this session and it will be posted to our training page at pmaa.us/training within a couple of days, a couple of days after that.

Maria DeFazio:
We will also have a full transcript for the event and a fully accessible transcript video. We solicited some questions from you guys ahead of time, which were really great questions, so thank you for for sending those in. We're going to save some time for open Q&A at the end if you've got questions that come up as the panelists are speaking. Go ahead and drop those in the Q&A function. If you are using a version of Zoom that supports the question and answer function, if you've got any technical problems or you don't have a Q&A function because you're using the mobile app and sometimes that's a thing, you can go ahead and use the chat function. That's also where you can tell me if you're having some weird sort of technical difficulty. I will be acting as our producer today, so if there is a technical problem, I will attempt to handle that. So the next thing I would like to do is introduce our moderator for today, and that is going to be Michael Lawyer. Michael is one of our PMAA board members. He's a class of 2008 PMF. Did I get that right, Michael?

Michael Lawyer:
2009. You were close. I'm sorry, the class of 2009 PMF Started at HUD, still at HUD.

Maria DeFazio:
Michael is one of our very HR-savvy folks and we pick his brain for all things HR-related. So Michael is going to be moderating today's panel and I will let Michael and the panelists introduce themselves. So, again, if you've got a technical question, drop it in the chat. I'm here. Otherwise I'm probably in turn my video off and let you concentrate on the panel. So, Michael, take it away.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you, Maria, and thank you, everybody, for joining us today. I know one of our earliest hopes when we founded the Presidential Management Alumni Association was that this would become a community that could help people move into and out of federal service over the course of their careers by building up their networks and by keeping those connections together.

Michael Lawyer:
We know all of you have not just exceptional skills, but an exceptional commitment to doing good in the world. And we know that many of you have found a path to do that for at least part of your career through federal service.

Michael Lawyer:
So we're really excited to have the session today where we can set aside a little bit of time to both talk about why you might want to be thinking about getting back into federal service and some of the technical details and considerations you might want to chew through while you're looking at making that journey. And we have three fantastic experts with us today, each of whom has made that journey themselves. And I'm not going to spend time reading biographies at you, but I want to give our wonderful panelists a chance to introduce themselves and tell you just a bit about how they have been both in and out and now back in government service again, before we start digging into your questions. So I'll take them in the order that they're on our slide there for us. Danni, would you like to introduce yourself first and tell us just a bit about how you found yourself back in the Foreign Service again?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Sure. So, hi, everybody. I'm Danni. Danielle, I go by Danni. I was a PMI, so I think we were the last class of PMIs before it changed to PMFs in 1994. So coming up almost 30 years ago now, which is crazy, I joined the Agency for International Development USAID and I ended up-- so it was kind of a strange experience because during my two year PMF PMI period, there was a reduction in force and USAID, so layoffs, and so they froze us as PMIs for an additional year. So we actually had a three year PMI experience versus what's a normal two year experience. So I had a really wonderful experience. And I'll get into a little bit later. During my three years as a PMI, I converted, did two more years of civil service. I ended up meeting another civil servant who converted to State Department Foreign Service and we were dating. He was posted to Nicaragua for his first post.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
And there was an opportunity through a mechanism. It's basically I was officially employed by an NGO, but I was detailed to USAID in Nicaragua through the Intergovernmental Personnel Act, which is a very obscure thing. So I basically functioned as a foreign service officer in the mission, but I was technically employed by a nonprofit out of D.C. So to take that job, I had to quit as a civil servant. So I had had more than five years in the civil service and I quit to take that job. And then that meant when Nicaragua was over, I was then out of work. So that was a big decision to make. But I'll talk more about later. I ended up consulting. So after Nicaragua, we moved to Honduras for three years and from there we moved to Brazil for three years. So during those six years, I did freelance consulting and then when that relationship ended, I moved back to the States, got a job at a nonprofit in Baltimore. I did that for seven years. And then I rejoined USAID in 2015 through something called a Foreign Service Limited (FSL) appointment that I'll talk about in more detail. So that's kind of the broad brush of where I'm coming from.

Michael Lawyer:
Thanks, Danni. That is quite the set of adventures, it's hard to have that that set of that sort of exposure to the world's issues, that that's kind of amazing, the different places that you've been and challenges that you've taken on.

Michael Lawyer:
Michael, I know you've come back to federal service very recently and you have perhaps the smallest gap out of service. Can you tell us about a little bit about your journey, how you came into government the first time and how you found your way back?

Michael Bruggman:
Yeah, absolutely. So I was PMF class of 2012. So relatively recent.

Michael Bruggman:
I came in to HUD. I started in the FHA commissioner's office, did my PMF rotation also within HUD. So basically was, was and still am very dedicated to affordable housing policy and was able to build on that within the agency. I was at HUD for about five years until 2017 when an opportunity came up in the private sector at a very large bank, which I will not name, but you all will have heard of if I did.

Michael Bruggman:
And I worked in their community development lending division for about three years. During that time, I stayed in contact with folks at HUD and was working on similar issues. We were doing affordable housing, lending.

Michael Bruggman:
You know that's something that's a big thing at HUD. So we had those relationships with private industry that kind of allowed them when I went out and got that job to know that my experience would be applicable. And then kind of through staying in contact with folks I worked with at HUD was able to be become aware of an opportunity to be the director of my old division back and had applied for that job and came back in about three years later after I had left. And that was just about six months ago. So relatively recent return to federal service. And just I guess compared to our other panelists, a brief stint out, but enjoyed my time in the private sector and thought it was very valuable, both in terms of just kind of building my experience, but also bringing that experience back to the federal government and applying what I learned in my new position. So.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you. And, Bill, I know you had sort of the classic in service, out of service, back in service and now finding a way to yet yet additional roles in the federal government. Can you tell us a little bit both about your time away and how that experience in particular has helped you continue your career once you've come back to federal service here?

Bill Brantley:
So I was a PMI in 1997 to 1999, and I was planning on staying in government. But then my wife's mother had been diagnosed with a terminal illness.

Bill Brantley:
So we went back home to Kentucky to help take care of her. And, you know, I'm not sure how I can phrase this the best way, but she lasted longer than we expected with the initial diagnosis.

Bill Brantley:
So I was out of federal service from 1999 to 2008. And in between that time, I couldn't really take any full time jobs because we were doing caretaking of her. But I worked part time at the University of Louisville as an adjunct faculty and gained my MBA and my PhD to help myself prepare because I was always planning to come back to the federal government. So, you know, I have it was an interesting time, and I think the one thing about it was the uncertainty, you know, because I knew I wanted to return one day. I just didn't know when.

Michael Lawyer:
Now, now, Bill, just because I know PMF and alums collect advanced degrees like some people collect Pokémon, is that is that a kind of three for you?

Bill Brantley:
Yeah, I have an MBA, a master's in political management from GW, I have a master's in education and a Ph.D. and now I'm just going off and collecting every certification, I think that's known.

Michael Lawyer:
So I do want to touch on that.

Michael Lawyer:
Just just for a second to ask ask our panelists in particular, is it necessary to do additional educational work to hit the reset button, or did you find that that wasn't part of the skills that you relied on when you decided to come back to federal government?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
So for me, since when I was doing freelance consulting work, most of the jobs that I got were doing project evaluations. There's something called the Evaluators Institute, which I think is now affiliated with George Washington University. So I from overseas, I would come back every year and take a couple of those courses to kind of beef up my evaluation skills. So I wasn't I never did the full certification, but I definitely benefited from those courses.

Michael Bruggman:
And from my perspective, I mean, I wasn't out quite as long, so maybe things will continue to evolve as my career progresses.

Michael Bruggman:
But I found that though I didn't pursue any formal educational opportunities, while out of federal service, the education, if you want to call it that, that I got in the private sector, was really invaluable to to coming back and being a high level contributor in federal service. So, I mean, I think there's getting additional degrees I think is a great step and can help you do a career pivot if you find yourself wanting to do something different than what you did before. But sometimes, you know, just getting additional experience in the field can also be incredibly helpful.

Michael Lawyer:
Michael, I think that's just a huge point. And that was one of the questions that we specifically got from the part from the audience ahead of time as well. Can you dove a little bit into what some of those skills and knowledge that you picked up in the private sector? Give us some details on what if that was really helpful in getting you through the admissions process and getting you back into government.

Michael Bruggman:
So, you know, I think when I was working in different agencies are different in this respect, so, you know, I don't think this experience will necessarily apply to everyone. But when I was working at HUD, particularly working at headquarters, it's very policy focused. So we were working on kind of, you know, what are we going to do for this loan program? How are we going to maximize how we're benefiting tenants in the subsidy program, which is excellent work type of work I'm passionate about. But it didn't give you the type of on the ground experience with. OK, so what are some of the issues that properties face in the real world? If I'm trying to build an affordable housing development, you know, there's something, something called the subsidy layering in affordable housing development where you have to use different types of programs to make the project work financially. So. And the FHA program, with its either on the insurance side, which is our loan program or on the assisted side, which are our subsidy programs, are a big portion of that. But there are other other programs that come into play most noticeable, notably the low income tax credit program that you just didn't really get a chance to work on while at HUD because you were kind of, you know, dedicated to this particular program. So getting out and kind of seeing how both kind of how our stakeholders were, what what situations they were facing on the ground and how they kind of were using our programs and then also seeing kind of how they were using those programs in conjunction with other programs and how those interacted and what potential. That kind of informed my ability to craft policies that not only kind of made sense to us when we were writing them, but also made sense from a practical perspective to the people that they actually would end up applying to.

Michael Bruggman:
So I think that was that was really helpful for me in terms of kind of coming back and seeing how to how to best craft those policies to meet the needs of the industry and ultimately tenants and HUD properties.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you, Michael and Bill, I think you were about to jump in on that a minute ago, too.

Bill Brantley:
Yeah, again, the formal education was nice, but I was planning to do that all along, but kind of piggyback on what Michael said I also worked at a couple of dotcoms and being in a startup taught me a lot of a lot of interesting skills, a lot of good on ground stuff. And one thing I encourage folks is I'm also a career development coach. And all this if you don't if you can't get in the private sector, try to get into volunteering, because I did a lot of volunteer opportunities and you can get some great leadership positions. I saw something pop up in the chat here about can I get some good non-government experience for my SES positions? Yes. And I've actually worked with some SES-ers and volunteer, like, for example, I volunteered as my church treasurer for three years and I got to handle money. I got to handle more money than I think I would ever been allowed to handle in a government office. And it was great financial experience. And even though I didn't get paid a dime, it was still great experience. So I've had the experience of negotiating a loan, a very large loan and working with banks and such and that stuff that goes right on to your resume. And if you see on USA jobs, it doesn't matter whether you're paid or volunteer, it's still good experience.

Michael Lawyer:
Absolutely, and Danni, I think you had one of the most esoteric career journeys in between.

Michael Lawyer:
Tell us a little bit about some of the things that you picked up during that that were helpful for you in getting back into federal government.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Yeah, I would echo a lot of the points that were just made, I think when I worked in USAID the first time, I didn't know any better because I was new to the government, but I did feel like very far removed from the ultimate beneficiaries of our programs. And so being able to do project evaluations as a consultant really helped me understand the elements of what makes programs successful or not successful and also how to fix them. So that was all very relevant and useful. And then the nonprofit I worked for was the International Youth Foundation. So I learned how to implement those youth programs, working with local partners in different countries. And also we did a lot of business development, which is kind of the the downside of working for a nonprofit is there's a big emphasis on that. So I learned being on the implementor side and reacting to RFAs, then going back into USAID how to write RFAs in a way that you're going to get what you want out of a program. So I think having the combination of the consulting, the nonprofit and the public side all together really gives you a holistic view and perspective on being able to work in international development.

Michael Lawyer:
Absolutely, and I'm hearing that common theme, that sort of the ability to see how our stakeholders and our customers weave together all the different programs really is valuable, especially coming back at a at a level where you're now steering policy a little bit more. I do want to touch on a couple of the questions that we got ahead of time as well. Some of them are very simple. Are there any official pipelines or programs to rehire former PMFs?

Michael Lawyer:
No, there are not.

Michael Lawyer:
But PMFs have never been the sort to take no for an answer. So I was hoping that the three of you could talk for just a little bit about how you use some of your networks and some of your knowledge and some of your experience specifically in navigating the hiring process. And Bill, I know you went deep into the weeds on this on your journey. Can you kick us off and tell us a little bit about how you used what you knew as a former civil servant to get back in?

Bill Brantley:
Yeah, first thing is, don't lose your network. I mean, a lot of folks, when they walk out, I had a pretty good network as a PMI or PMF and made sure to keep in touch with my folks all the time and kept up with where they were going.

Bill Brantley:
And then I think Michael's probably referring to this, even though it's back home and I'm dating myself a bit. This is back when they used to publish the federal positions in papers, in a newspaper, and then you would get that and had a friend of mine at the Kentucky Department of Library and Archives, because it's the only place we could get it, would photocopy it for me and send it to me. So if you all remember, maybe back in the day, what was it, SF-171 had that up there, had it up to date, always sending it in. And I was so glad when we went to resume this lovely day when we went to USA Jobs. Thank goodness for that. But yeah, paper forms. And also one of the things that I did to get back in the government, so long as I had to take a position, a grade level less than what I left as. So don't be worried about that, because as a PMF, you know, one of the things I knew I had I think I left as a GS-13, coming back as a GS-12, I knew I would make that up. So that was kind of like, you know, just be prepared for that. And it took a little bit of time and a little bit of networking and, of course, getting those applications out there. So, you know, you've been out for a while. Just don't be discouraged by it. And you keep keep working on getting in.

Michael Lawyer:
Dani, I see you nodding along. Do you have a story you want to you want to share with us as well to tell you your perspective on that?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Yeah. So I know that career advice is to have a five year plan or whatever. I've never really had that strategic life plan in all of my opportunities and everything that looks in retrospect to fit together perfectly. I didn't know, you know, at the time, and it was largely dependent on my networks and the people that I worked with and the people that I met. So when I was a PMI, I got to work on the special initiative that was announced by Vice President Gore. And it was this amazing entrepreneurial bubble of people where we had CEOs of the top nonprofits and the top leadership within the agency. And just it was one of the best formative experiences I've ever had. Those people, I'm still in touch with a lot of them. So what happened was when I started consulting because of my large network, I started to get consulting work, even though I had never been a consultant. And it was very scary to go out on your own and not have a firm paycheck. But because I had such a large network, people just started referring work to me or coming to me.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
So that was critical then, like, this is just incredible. When I moved back to the States in 2008 to one of the people on the steering committee from 1995 was the head was the CEO of International Youth Foundation, and he contacted me and said we have this job managing an AID project. I interviewed, got it, the AOR, the contract manager, was someone I had worked with in Nicaragua, then when -- so I commuted to Baltimore, which was a four hour round trip commute. I did that for seven years and I couldn't take it anymore, which is why I wanted to come back to AID in 2015. The director of the Democracy, Human Rights and Governance Center who had a job available, was my old friend from 1995 when I was a PMI. So he forwarded the job opportunity to me. He said, I'm recusing myself. I applied and I got it. So I cannot stress enough how important networks are, and to be, you know, literally you don't know who you meet that someday is going to play a big part in your life.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
So treat everyone respectfully, professionally, like be your best self with all the people you know, because you just don't know how your futures are going to interact.

Michael Lawyer:
I think that is such great advice. I know one of my favorite books of last year was Bruce Filer's Life is in the Transitions, and he talks about how those five year plans never do play out. But we we roll with it anyway. And Michael, I know you can speak to that. You didn't even have five years out, so that clearly wasn't your plan. Do do do a five year plan in and out. But tell us a little bit about how you used your network in those relationships to come back into government.

Michael Bruggman:
Yeah, so I was I kind of kept up with folks when I left HUD and not in like a you know, because I'm somebody who is not a big as much as I think I agree with everyone. Having a network is important to maintaining that network is important. I'm somebody who is not a big networker, particularly in D.C. There these people who are out here who are always trying to like, oh, what can you do for me? You know what? Let's let's let's meet up just to talk about nothing. I am not somebody who is like that. And when I go to these panels and I hear somebody say, oh, you've got a network, I'm always like, well, you know, that that sounds kind of silly to me. But but I will say that that networking doesn't mean that you're going to every event that you're emailing people out of the blue like all this kind of stuff. So, you know, one of my most important perhaps connections in coming back, I literally ran into a guy I used to work with at HUD on the street. He happened to take a new job. He and he was right across the street from my office. And we agreed to get lunch. And he was somebody who ended up recommending me to the new to a new person coming into HUD for this position that I'm in now that somebody they might want to look at. So it really is you know, it can be that simple. It doesn't need to be this huge active effort on your part and people both because sometimes it can be hard to get quality candidates in federal hiring from the hiring side.

Michael Bruggman:
And also because, you know, I mean, I think people are generally just nice and want to help. You don't have to be best friends with somebody for them to want to help you and want to kind of refer you for a great position. So just kind of maintain those contacts. If you do happen to run into somebody you know saying, hey, let's get lunch. Like, what are you up to these days? Just take an interest in what they're doing, I think can really help. And then I you know, when I came back, so I said I was referred by an old colleague to somebody who had recently started at HUD and was looking to hire. And they actually reached out to me and said, are you interested in this mission? Do you want to talk about it? Let's, you know, let's let's figure out a plan for getting you in the job, but for making sure if you are interested, that you are aware of the opportunity. So and that that led to me kind of being able to come back. So just kind of having those conversations and, you know, kind of having those loose relationships can really help with that without kind of taking over taking over your life. There's always whenever I hear networking, it's always when I think, like, I don't want to be at a happy hour six nights a week or whatever, but, you know, it really can be like much, much lower touch than that.

Bill Brantley:
Can I jump on something that Michael said, please?

Bill Brantley:
Ok, and I agree with you on that. I've been to these networking events where people are trying to hand me a resume as we're in the buffet line. I just hate that. But the one thing I did with the networking, I am a big advocate of professional groups.

Bill Brantley:
I'm in project management, Association for Talent Development, and I look at the networking there is building your leadership skills because these groups always need someone to be in leadership positions and hint hint PMAA also needs people in leadership positions. And it's also a great place to learn because it helped me sharpen my skills and present myself to an employer. Oh, I have these PMI competencies and here's this competency framework that I helped train myself on. So I totally agree with you, Michael. Not don't network just to be out there looking for a job and also network effectively so that you can help other folks. My biggest thing is I had this ratio -- three. I helped someone three times before I ask him for a favor, just a quick ratio there. So but again, professional networks, professional trade associations, perfect places to network and also get those leadership skills.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Can I also piggyback on this? So when I use the word network, I also hate those events. I'm talking more about, like when I was a PMI and I had to interact with so many different offices and different groups with that initiative I was doing. People saw that they could count on me, that I did good work, that I was nice to work with, etc.. So as you build that year after year after year, you have this reputation as being someone that people want to work with. And so it's not like I'm deliberately trying to network. It's just like always doing your best so that then people want to work with you. And then when you're a consultant, they come to you and say, oh, she's going to be easy to work with, let's hire her, because we're not going to have to redo her report at the end. So I use the term networking loosely. Just keep connections and do your best so that people recognize the type of professional that you are.

Michael Lawyer:
Absolutely. That's such great advice. I had a mentor once who who put it very succinctly, try just being more interesting. And I said, what should I do my hair purple or what do I do?

Michael Lawyer:
And he said no! Just be excited about doing good work and share that with other people and you'll see how things begin to blossom and begin to come together.

Michael Lawyer:
And I hear that in all of the stories that each of you have have shared, I think that's fantastic. And speaking of being excited about doing good work, you know, one of the things that we talk about a little bit with public service is that it's a kind of calling. Not everybody is cut out for public service. Not everybody, quite frankly, is talented enough. And we talked a little bit about the recruitment pools and about some of the challenges with getting people in and then the inevitable challenges we face trying to get through our day to days in the office and all of the roadblocks that come up doing things in government. We sometimes talk about it as paying us with problems because if this was easier, it wouldn't need somebody like us to do it. Can you talk just a little bit about how you first sort of felt that calling back to public service and that this was maybe something that you wanted to look at doing? I know, Bill, you talked about a little bit in your intro that you'd always kind of wanted to get back to public service. Tell us a little bit about what what that was like for you and how you sort of knew that's where you were supposed to be.

Bill Brantley:
Yeah, I don't know. I guess from an early age, I mean, I kind of look in that when I was in Boy Scouts and I did all the civic merit badges and all that stuff, and I just kind of enjoyed public service, just always kind of appealed to me and my first job

Bill Brantley:
when I got out of, when I was an undergraduate, when I got out of college, was working as a paralegal in the public defender's office in the state of Kentucky. And then I went to the Kentucky Environmental Protection Cabinet. And I've had a few stints here and there. I like, I said, I worked in a couple of dotcoms, watched them explode in 2000, that was kind of interesting, and I've done a few commercial jobs, but I've always just kind of felt drawn to public service just because I have a real -- I just like serving citizens and I like getting really kind of philosophical hearing on my soapbox. I really appreciate American democracy, want to keep it strong and just the idea of serving others through government, I think government is actually a very good thing. I know that's not common nowadays, but I think it's a good thing we can do great things. And I guess as a kid, I was just totally inspired and I'll be geeky here, totally inspired by the lunar landing and just what government can achieve. So, yeah, I mean, I realize there is, of course, everyone who works in government realize that a government is not perfect, sometimes far from it, and some days is just maddening when you work in government, but overall it's been pretty good.

Michael Lawyer:
Danni, I know you never seem to get far from service in that career path that you described.

Michael Lawyer:
Can you tell us a little bit about that and what that was for you? What what what you were sort of listening for in yourself about where your next work should be?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Yeah, it's interesting because ever since I was a kid, I'm like the biggest idealist and wanting to make the world a better place. And I got interested in languages at a young age.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
And so I studied international development in college and did my year abroad in Columbia. I worked in a law firm after college, an international law firm. I did it for five years and I realized this is not what I want to do. It's not fulfilling. I really want to get back to international development. So I got my master's. And it's funny because I never at that point never really thought about working for the government. And my career counselor at Pitt said, there's this PMI program. It's really great. I think you would be a great candidate. And it was only because of him that I applied. I had never heard of it. I didn't know about it, and I ended up getting it. But I, I for my personal philosophy, I guess I see myself as a global citizen. So it's not as much public service like government service as serving to make the world a better place, whether it's in the nonprofit, whether it's volunteering, whether it's meeting people and helping them like whatever. Like I don't care the method I do it. It's just that I want to do things to improve the world. So working in the government is great, but that's not the only way to do it.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you. And Michael, you have sort of a big contrast between public service and a name brand bank, sort of the the pillar of capitalism, and in it for itself, this.

Michael Bruggman:
Tell us a little bit about what that contrast was like and how that helped you back to public service.

Michael Bruggman:
Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, definitely when you think of big banks, that's exactly what you think of as almost the opposite of public service. Right? I did work in the community development division at the bank. So there was some kind of public service element. But certainly, I mean, it was nothing like working for the government that had its good aspects and bad aspects. There certainly was. I told somebody when I started working at that position that one of the one of the things that that most kind of took the most adjustment to is I would I have this kind of habit of sending emails right before I go to lunch, because I figure that I'll give people a little bit of time to respond. And then when I get back from lunch, maybe, hopefully they will have gotten back to me. But when I was at in the private sector, I would send an email at noon. I would get a response at 12:03. And then I would get back and I would be like, oh, my gosh, they responded right away, you know? So that was that was that was good. But there were some some aspects that I did not like as much as the Federal government. It's not that they're bad, it just that for me, you know, even in the community development division, there was always that kind of focus on the bottom line and what we were doing for for shareholders, and that that is their their mission and their duty. So I have no problem with that. But it is not my mission or my duty.

Michael Bruggman:
My my kind of goal was to kind of improve the outcomes of folks who, you know, kind of need the services that that we provide and the housing that we're able to develop and maintain. So that's kind of what led me back to to HUD, just kind of realizing that, well, you know, this is you know, this is this is community focused, but it's still kind of ultimately a profit motivated venture.

Michael Bruggman:
And I want to focus more on how we can help folks, particularly those who really need that help and can...it makes a difference in their lives. And I feel like the position that I ended up taking back at HUD really directly impacts that on on an almost daily basis. And I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. And it's a great job. But I did take a pay cut to come back to the federal government, but I'm happy to have done it because I get a lot more satisfaction out of it. So.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you for sharing that. That's that's quite a testament.

Michael Lawyer:
And I really appreciate that. We have gotten a couple of questions about preparing for the SES journey and how that private sector experience can play into SES.

Michael Lawyer:
And that's no surprise. The program filters for people with leadership potential.

Michael Lawyer:
And it will come as no surprise to all to learn that 10 percent of all working SES in the federal government right now are alums of the PMI/PMF Program.

Michael Lawyer:
It's what we filter for. It's what we train and develop you for. I know we're not going to be able to go too much into the technical details of applying for SES today, although I will say from an HR perspective. Well, speaking in my personal capacity, it's straight up hazing to put you through that application process. It's brutal. And I know that some of our friends at the Senior Executive Association who's partnered with us on other events have some resources there. And Maria, do we have those up on our training page or is that on the in the coming soon list?

Maria DeFazio:
That's a really good question. It should be going if it's not up there already, it should be up there by tomorrow. I will drop the link in the chat so everybody can see it -- pmaa.us/training. All of our previous sessions go up there, the video should be posted, the full transcript is probably waiting to be added right now. But we just last month did a session on sort of how to know whether or not SES is right for you. And the folks at the Senior Executives Association are really great partners when it comes to that sort of thing. I'll also drop their link in the chat box as well so you can check that out.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you and I do want to throw that to our panel a little bit, too, because I know each of you have taken leadership roles and that you have all felt that shared drive to to make a difference and to transform, not just be good at your job, but really transform the way the places that you're working are doing business and pushing forward. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience outside of government impacted the way you think about leading in government and how you kind of use that experience in shaping the work that you're doing now?

Michael Bruggman:
And Michael, can I can I pick on you to go first since I let you have the last word last time, why don't you kick us off since I know you've got that direct experience from having going back to manage the group you've just been working with?

Michael Bruggman:
Yeah. So in terms of and I did, though it wasn't an SES position, I did leave as 13 and come back as a 15. So they were able to give me credit for at least a year experience of specialized experience at the GS-14 level at my private sector position. So I do have some experience kind of framing private sector experience as equivalent federal government experience. And I mean, I think that the the thing that you really need to focus on is how it relates back to that work that you're going to be doing in the government.

Michael Bruggman:
Right? And sometimes that's leadership skills. You know, it can be, which are broadly applicable and it can be as simple as that. But sometimes it's the technical aspects. Sometimes that's well I have these connections in the industry that we're going to continue working with when we go forward so that those things, I think, are helpful in terms of kind of framing your experience for applying back to the federal government in a leadership role in terms of the most useful skills that I learned while I was outside and then brought back in.

Michael Bruggman:
I think really there was a, I don't know if this is a skill or not, but something that I think really has helped me in my professional capacity is just there was this sense of constant urgency when I worked in the private sector. There was this sense that if you get a project, it needs to be done five minutes ago, you know, and that is not how it works in the federal government at all.

Michael Bruggman:
And I think we all know that. And and really, that's not feasible in the federal government because, you know, you can't you can't get something done tomorrow if you need to get it through a clearance process that has 13 people on the concurrence chain. Right? But just kind of having that that kind of mentality in the back of my mind that, well, it is important that this continues to move forward and we need to make sure we're keeping track of it. And if so, if it gets lost in some office. Well, that's not that's not my responsibility directly. But it is my responsibility to make sure that this sees -- that it continues moving forward. So I need to be following up with them. I need to make sure that I'm knocking on their door, that I'm sending them an email to say, hey, what's going on with this?

Michael Bruggman:
Because, you know, we need to make sure that it keeps moving and kind of bringing that sense of of of kind of urgency and timing to kind of back to the federal government, I think has been has been really valuable. And that, again, that's something that will vary from agency to agency. But how do I feel like that has been particularly meaningful for me.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you and Danni, you spoke so eloquently about that sort of sense of being a global citizen. How is that perspective and particularly what you picked up outside of government shaping how you're working in government now to help us deliver better?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
So I think a formative experience I had was when I was doing project evaluations, part of it was looking at did they achieve X, Y and Z results?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
But fundamentally what I saw across countries and across different types of projects was it was a lot of organizational development, OD issues, and I just saw that from place to place. And so I think I really started to focus a lot on OD types of issues. And so coming back into USAID, like we're undergoing a reorg right now, and from an OD perspective, a lot of it is not done in a logical way. And so I have to say, it's really frustrating because we're trying. We're one of the officers affected and we're trying to fix it and we don't have the power to fix it within the bureaucracy. So I have to say it's super frustrating because you see how things are not working and how they could be fixed and they're not being fixed. So that's just one example of knowing the right thing, but not being able to do it which is not always fun.

Bill Brantley:
Bill, did you have anything that you wanted to add about what your private experience, private sector experience taught you? I know you've done a lot in academia. Has that helped shape how you've approached leading the work you do?

Bill Brantley:
Yeah. So in academia. So like I said, I was part time faculty at the University of Louisville, which is in Kentucky, and I served about a three year stint as the part time faculty representative with the faculty Senate.

Bill Brantley:
And it's it was a pretty fascinating time. And basically, as a part time faculty member, kind of put it nicely, mostly tenured professors didn't feel like we were fully invested in the institution as they were. So you definitely felt like you were maybe an underclass or a second class citizen. I don't know how to put it nicely than that.

Bill Brantley:
But I do remember some of the accomplishments we made was actually as the chair of the part time faculty committee, I was able to get a grievance process for part time faculty members, which was a great achievement because before then they were employed at will and you could be fired at a moment's notice. And I actually was able to get a process installed so that people can have a hearing, defend themselves and delay that firing until they can actually get some evidence in there. So that was a big accomplishment when it taught me, which has helped me in government services, sometimes coming from the perspective of not being the one in power, but not being the one who holds all the cards, if I can say it that way, being able to persuade other people that may be diametrically opposed to you, what you're trying to accomplish and still get them on your side and persuade them to see your perspective. So that's been helpful a lot in government because sometimes, you know, you don't come from positions of authority or power. And as a project manager, we all know that, too. I mean, as a project manager, you don't really have authority, you're borrowing authority. And I think the best thing I learned about being a project manager was the servant leadership model, which I tried to teach in my leadership development courses.

Michael Lawyer:
Absolutely, and that's that's always been an effective model around government. We'll have to put that on the list for future trainings to to dig into that. We'll see if we can offer something on that through PMAA, if that would be valuable to the membership. I do want to acknowledge there's there's one more sort of technical question in the chat that has come up a couple of times about how the three-year career status works. And just in the interest of time, I'm going to jump on that one, which is to say, if you were in the federal service for three years, you have career status. So when a posting comes up on USA jobs, you'll see many jobs are advertised twice and over on the right, it will say who can apply and it'll have different classes of people. If you have more than three years of federal service, you can apply under the merit posting, which is the one that is for current feds. Now, what you're going to need to do is have your documentation in order, and in particular, they'll be looking for some proof that you were a former Fed that will most likely be an SF-50. You will want to chase that down from your personnel folder, which you can get to online your EOPF. But it is always a good practice, even if you're just government curious right now and thinking about coming back, get your last SF-50 together. You can always reach out to your former agency and see if there H.R. department can get that for you as well so that you have what you need on hand to apply. And that will let you apply through both channels. And it makes you far more competitive. If you can be on the merit cert -- if you can be on the merit application, you have a lot more options and your odds of getting through are a lot better. And Bill, I saw you put a note in the chat. Go ahead and share that with the community, because I think that's a great point.

Bill Brantley:
Well, when I first left the federal service, I of course, back in the day when we had paper wrote to the record center, make sure I get my entire file. So I had a copy of that with me. And then since we're now electronic, I make sure to download it yearly. So whatever my whatever my personal file I downloaded, keep a copy of it because my wife's a records manager and archivist and she's kind of drilled into me the idea of continuity of operations.

Bill Brantley:
And you never know where records may disappear to one day.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
Yep, I see. OK, go ahead Danni. Attest to that. My retirement service computation date doesn't include my prior five years of service and I can't -- I have all my SF-50s except for my final SF-50 when I left.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
And so I've been trying for 13 months to rectify this. Haven't been able so, keep those SF-50s.

Michael Lawyer:
Yes, I see Maria has jumped back on, which means it's time for our wrap up question.

Michael Lawyer:
And so I do want to go around the horn with the panel one more time. We've talked a lot about what called you back to federal service, about how you found a way of getting in. What we want to know if you could give us a closing thought on, did it live up to your expectations? I know federal government service is sometimes a little bit of a challenging environment. Has it been what you thought it would be to come back? And Michael, why don't you go ahead and go first since you've been back, the shortest time will take it shortest to longest on this one, right?

Michael Bruggman:
Yeah.

Michael Bruggman:
So, I mean, I think, you know, keeping in mind that there are positives and negatives to service, as as Bill said earlier, some days, you know, in any federal job, are going to be maddening. But it has lived up to my expectations because the reason that I came back was because I was very dedicated to the mission of HUD. And I do feel like every nearly every day we're doing important work that is going to improve the lives of tenants in our properties. And that's what is most important to me.

Michael Bruggman:
And I also have enjoyed working, kind of getting back in, working with people that I worked with before.

There has been and just kind of on the expectations side, just kind of coming back during Covid, particularly as a supervisor, you know, with everybody kind of in this telework posture has been has presented some unique challenges that I think are have been a little bit different than than what I might have expected. But that kind of comes with the territory. And it certainly has and has been something that we've we've worked through and had some some successes with. And overall, it has been a really excellent experience going back to federal service. So for anybody who's who's interested in doing it and kind of looking into it, I definitely encourage it.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you. Danni, can has it been what you thought it would be to come back in?

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
In some ways, it felt like I never left since I was still involved with, USAID people and projects and things like that in other and kind of the deja vu, like we had reengineering in the 90s and now we're doing a reorganization of the 2020s.

Danielle (Dani) Roziewski:
I have to say, it's a mixed bag, you know, the past couple of years, they proposed cutting USAIDs budget by thirty five percent every year. And so it was very stressful dealing with existential crises and all of that. I think overall I, I don't regret it, but I also don't regret that I've had those other experiences to make my kind of. Full life career paths really interesting I do have moments of regret when I see people that I came in with in the 90s who are like mission directors and very senior leaders. And I think, you know what if but I've also been to forty seven countries and done really cool things that they haven't. So I like looking at it as just a big picture. You know, what is job security? Just do what makes you happy. And sometimes it's in government, sometimes it's out like it's all it's all part of the life experience. So it's all valuable.

Michael Lawyer:
Thank you.

Bill Brantley:
And Bill, I know you've been back the longest. You're clearly through the honeymoon period of having returned the federal service. But but you've become a lifer again. What's that been like for you? And is it what you'd hoped you were getting back into?

Bill Brantley:
Yeah, I've been happy that I'm back. And again, it's all about service. I'm glad I'm serving folks and I'm very happy with the jobs I've had. I mean, again, there's been some days I really wish I hadn't done this.

Bill Brantley:
And I'll be honest, sometimes when I look at my friends that are independent consultants in training and development and they look like they're having a better day than I am. But then I remember what it was like when I was a consultant. And it's not all wine and roses then. So it's like, you know, when you've been on the other side of the fence, I tell them. But I had that turn in the startups and I worked at a consulting firm for a little bit and kind of, yeah, the grass looks greener on the other side when you're not in government, but when you you know, when you get down into it, each one has their trade offs. But overall, I'm glad I'm back in government.

Michael Lawyer:
Well, thank you, Bill, and thank you all three of our panelists, this has been a really helpful discussion. Really appreciate your honesty and your candor and your willingness to share your journey with us. Maria, I think we've got a couple of closing announcements that we need to wrap up with. I'm going to turn things over to you.

Michael Lawyer:
As soon as you take yourself off mute, I'm going to turn things over to you.

Maria DeFazio:
There we go. That's better. OK, not really sure what happened there, but yes, you've got a couple of wrap up announcements. Now, I know that there are some folks who still have some additional technical questions. Michael, where can people go with those technical questions?

Michael Lawyer:
There are a wide variety of resources. I know Bill and I did a training specifically on the application process generally, and we've got that SES training. So the PMAA training resource is a great place to reach out. We're trying to make that more and more useful to the community. And Maria, if anyone follows up with you directly with questions, I'm sure that I'm willing and the panel would be willing to do what we can to get back to folks down the road and help answer those questions. PMAA is growing to be a larger community every day, which is fantastic. But we are not so large we can't answer an email. So do please reach out through the main contact box there and we'll do what we can to get back to you.

Maria DeFazio:
Perfect, so I want to say I hope everybody enjoyed our session on returning to federal service today, and I want to give a big thank you to Michael, Michael, Danni and Bill for their time. It was so great to hear from all of you on both sort of the philosophical and the technical aspects of doing this and to sort of help make us feel like this is totally a thing that's doable if we want to, which is great. So thank you and thank you obviously also for supporting PMAA. So PMAA exists to support the ongoing excellence of PMI and PMF alums and to reinforce efforts to build an exceptional public service. And we do this by creating opportunities for all of you, our membership, our attendees. We view you as America's current and future leaders, and we want to make sure that you have opportunities to grow, to learn and to network. So I am going to make an ask of you all today. Thank you so much for attending. If you could toss a little money our way, maybe twenty five dollars, that would be an exceptional help to us. Contributions from today's event go to purchase the support and services that we need to put on more trainings, to bring in special guests, to hold additional events. And now that we're looking at hopefully fingers crossed, getting over the hump with Covid, that means that we're going to be able to do events in person, too. That takes funding. So if you want to keep seeing PMAA grow and build a sustainable organization to serve our alumni community, this is where we reach out to you and ask just for a little bit whatever you can throw our way would be exceptionally helpful.

Maria DeFazio:
Please go to www.PresidentialManagementAlumniAssociation. org and click on the donate button. You can also go to pmaa.us and click on the donate button. They'll all take you to the same place. We've also got PayPal and Venmo at that same email address that I tossed in the chat for you. And as always, thank you for coming out and supporting the community just by being here and asking questions. We are so, so thankful for for all of you. There are a couple of things going on in terms of events right now. We are in March Mentorship Madness Month, lots and lots of M's. As you saw in our previous newsletter, we are running a contest bracket, a sweet sixteen style bracket contest on the best advice you've ever gotten from a mentor. We are going to be having a couple of features on our blog this month about mentoring. And so we wanted to let you know that that was sort of what was happening in March. We're going to be putting up some new events once we finalize them soon, end of March, beginning of April, and then again in the end of May. These are going to be big deal events. I hope you're intrigued and we'll be able to share some more details very soon about those. So thank you all so much. We will see you next month at our next Couchella session.

Maria DeFazio:
Thanks, everybody. Thank you all.

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