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Emily:
Hey there, whether you're a return or a new listener. Thanks for being here and welcome to Voices of Academia, the podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We do cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma, and help people feel less alone. This is your host and final year PhD candidate Emily King. Today we return to Edinburgh in Scotland for the second part of an interview that was recorded in September 2021. Dr. Jennifer Paxton, a senior lecturer in Anatomy, PI of a tissue engineering lab, wife and mother, opened up in the last episode about parenting as an academic during COVID-19. Today, she acknowledges that feelings of inadequacy had always been there, but were amplified during the transition to motherhood. She opens up about an interaction with an empathetic colleague that shocked her into seeking support. Just a brief warning that there are themes of suicidal ideation today. Also, a quick apology for any volume or other sound issues. You may notice I might have maybe lost one of my recordings. The sounds still pretty good, though. The podcast is going to take a little break so that I'm practicing what I preach. I need to slow down and take some pressure off, but I'll be back some time in June. If this podcast helps you feel less alone and you have some spare change, I'd sincerely appreciate you shouting me a coffee. Support the podcast at BuyMeACoffee.com/VOApodcast. Thanks, now let's get into it.
Emily:
Hey, Jennifer, welcome back to the podcast.
Jennifer:
Thanks very much.
Emily:
So as I mentioned in the last episode, you came forward quite early on to share your story with voices of academia, and you published a blog on our website as well, which I'll make available in the episode description. But last episode we sort of followed up on that blog, which was about you returning from maternity leave and some of the personal struggles that you faced with that. And we followed up and sort of talked more about what it's been like as a parent in academia throughout the pandemic and some of the frustrations that you have as a parent within the academic system. And we also kind of wound back a little bit and talked about your decision making process to have a child in academia. So, yeah, I just want to thank you again for talking about it. You're the first one that sort of really talked about being a parent in academia. And I know you sort of touched on some things that made you quite sad to admit and were probably quite difficult to talk about. So thank you for being so open. So we learned a bit about your life before you opened up about your story last episode and today I'd sort of like to learn a bit more. So in your downtime, is there anything you're particularly watching or listening to or reading that you're enjoying? That's probably not like kids, cartoons and other things that I'm sure you engage with, unless you like that kind of thing.
Jennifer:
Well, yeah, I must say that Disney Plus was was possibly the best investment that we made at the start of the pandemic. We've watched every single Disney movie as a family, so it just it's been lovely. So, yeah, there's not an awful lot of other TV watching that goes on. Me and my husband are constantly on the lookout for new Boxsets to get our teeth into and haven't really found anything recently. So, you know, if anybody's got any recommendations, please let me know. In terms of writing, I think reading for me has been one of the things that has been really affected by my poor mental health, because I find it really difficult to concentrate on reading for four years. And I think potentially the fact that I read so much as part of my job, that the thought of stepping away and reading something else is really a quite a difficult thing to comprehend. And I just didn't have the concentration to find myself getting lost in a story. I love the idea of it, but I haven't been able to do that for years. It's something that I, I wish that I could get back, actually, but finding some quiet time to just lose myself in a book, I've not had that for a long, long time.
Emily:
Yeah, I can definitely understand. That's something I say to my partner a little bit that like because I read a lot at work, I don't necessarily want to do that at home, but I'm actually in a book club because I love writing. But it goes through phases, you know, depending on how much reading and writing I'm doing at work or how much lab work I'm doing, I'll be able to better or more poorly engage with that. I guess audiobooks could be something that might work for you. One of the girls in our book club does that quite frequently, so she'll listen to audiobooks while she's, like, hanging out the washing or doing the dishes and that kind of thing. And it's a different way to engage with a story. So that might work for you.
Jennifer:
Maybe if I. If I get a commute back to the office.
Emily:
Yeah. What about who you're closest to and why?
Jennifer:
Who I'm closest to? My husband, actually. Yesterday was our ten year wedding anniversary.
Emily:
Congratulations.
Jennifer:
Thank you. It's. It was weird at passing a bit of a blur, really, but we were reminiscing about our past ten years, and he's been a massive, massive support through if I say everything is all encompassing. I mentioned in the last episode that I met him when I was in the second year of my PhD. So when he met me, he already understood that the PhD was the that was the thing. That's what I had to get done. But he was the one that was able to tease out a bit more, Jennifer, and help me remember all the fun things to do in life. And yeah, he's, he's great. He's, he's been amazing through some really, really difficult periods in the last few years with my own mental health and him having to take more of a, I would say more of a kind of central role. And the family take up a lot of the childcare responsibilities that are. Typically the women responsibility, but he's been so instrumental in and helping me get back to a steady state.
Emily:
Hmm. Yeah. And that's yeah, I think that's something actually that appears to be quite I mean, I'm sure it's important in every industry, but I know this has come up that having a supportive partner in academia is just so crucial, particularly if you have children. So I'm really happy to hear that you have that support and I can relate to a partner bringing out different parts of you as well. Mine has encouraged me to watch more games after work and play video games to help unwind and all of that kind of stuff. So it's, it's good. It's, it's helpful to get that reminder at the last one to sort of get to know you is asking whether you have a bucket list and what's at the top of your bucket list.
Jennifer:
I don't actually have a bucket list. I think there's I think for me, there's there's part of superstition in that I don't I don't want to put together a list of things that I feel like I have to do, because I also feel like that might be more pressure on me to try and achieve all these things.
Emily:
I feel like.
Jennifer:
Quite a lot of pressure, self-inflicted pressure I let on myself. I don't really want to give myself anymore. I mean, there are a few that are a few places in the world I would like to visit at some point. My my brother lives in New York. I've got two brothers, actually, but one of them lives in New York. And I would just absolutely love to go and spend time with him and his wife. And they've got a wee boy and they've got a wee girl on the way, you know, it's that kind of thing that I would really just love to go and not not to see New York. I've been to New York, I've done all the touristy things. I just want to go and spend some time with them because it's been it's been a long, long time. So it's those kind of things that I wouldn't say bucket list, but they're definitely very high up on the priority when the world gets back to some kind of normal. That would be one of the first things to do, I think is book those flights.
Emily:
Yeah. And I hope you're able to do that sometime in the near future. But I actually I think your answer is really realistic. I like that because you know how when you get to the end of your PhD and people are always like, what are you going to do next? And it's like that dreaded question. I've been getting that a lot recently, and my answer now is, Yeah, I don't I don't want to put extra pressure on myself. Like I don't really know what I'm going to be doing next, but to try to think about that and research it and try to do the networking and all of the applications at like the pointy end of a PhD, when you're trying to write up and just get the qualification and deal with the financial struggles that come at the end. Plus, there's the pandemic, obviously, you know, like I feel like that's enough. So I'm kind of just thinking that I will try to go for a research role afterwards. But I don't know if I'm not thinking too much about my future career direction, if that makes sense, because, you know, I'd like to explore my options, but there's too much on my plate at the moment. So I think that's going to be something that we'll need to wait until after I've submitted and have some financial freedom and have some space to kind of consider that a bit more. So, obviously in a very different realm. But yeah, I think it's realistic to look at where you're at right now and not put any extra pressure on yourself because yeah, you're dealing with a lot in a pandemic as a mum and an academic and yeah, actually I really like that answer. Thank you.
Jennifer:
Okay. I think one of the things I'll just mention now is that we may touch on it later, but my love of lists and being able to cross things off lists and it's it's a bit of a nightmare for me to have a list that doesn't have things being ticked off. So, you know, no bucket list for me.
Emily:
Fair enough. Sorry. A social media shout out to those that are unable to listen to the end where I'll do that again. But if anything Jennifer shares today resonates with you, you can get in touch with her on Twitter at Dr. Underscore Giuseppe and I'll put a link to that in the episode description. So we didn't specifically touch on it in the last episode. It was covered in Jennifer's blog. But Jennifer, you were diagnosed with and you sought treatment for anxiety and depression when you returned from maternity leave. And you indicated in your blog that you honestly feel like those difficult experiences you've had to overcome have made you a better scientist and a better teacher and and for you, most importantly, a better wife and mum. So I wanted to talk a little bit, I guess, about those initial phases when you had returned from maternity leave and you were starting to notice, you know, deterioration in your mental health. You mentioned in your blog that you you kept telling yourself you were fine, but you eventually were encouraged to seek. Elp. And I'm interested to know in your mind like, why do you think you kept telling yourself you will find where you potentially not recognizing some of the signs or feeling like you know, you in quotes like should be fine because of societal expectations of new moms or what do you think it was for you?
Jennifer:
It was a whole host of things, really. I think the main thing was I was ashamed. I was ashamed for feeling the way that I felt. And I was scared. I was scared about people finding out. I was scared about what effect that was going to have on on relationships, on career, everything. And I think the reason it got to the point where I needed help was because I couldn't see a way out of this. I would perhaps hint to people that I was close to, you know, my family see that, you know, I really wasn't feeling great. And the response I got was always, but why? What have you got to be upset about? What have you got to be depressed about? You know, you're doing so well in your career. You've got this beautiful little baby girl. And so there is that expectation of feeling like, well, I should be happy, I should be happy. But I wasn't happy. I was far from happy. I was just feeling a failure in all aspects of my life. And it was a really, really bad and scary time for me. I do get emotional thinking about it, you know, thinking about the the intensity of those feelings, feeling like I had let everybody down because from externally I had nothing to be upset about. But inside I was not in a good place.
Emily:
Yeah. And that must have been so difficult to have people respond in that way, because I know it's it's so hard to open up to people, you know, even people that are close to you about not feeling okay. And to sort of then have your experience kind of invalidated in a way I imagine would have been really, really difficult. So what was it that what were some of the signs? I guess for you, if you feel comfortable talking about them, you know that you might need some help.
Jennifer:
I just could not see a way forward. I had got to the point where I was waking up every day and not not really wanting to be there. If I'm completely honest, I wasn't getting any joy from anything in my life. And it was it was horrible because I look back on it and it's almost like I can I can remember sitting in my flat at home with my daughter and seeing this amazing little person that was starting to learn all these things. And yet I just felt like I wasn't doing enough. I wasn't a good enough mum. I wasn't giving her all the experiences that I should have been giving her. I was forcing myself to go to baby grips because everyone tells you that you should out the house, you should go and speak to other mums. And I would leave those meetings in tears because everybody else looked like they had everything sorted and I didn't. So that it just compounded these feelings of I wasn't doing enough, I wasn't doing enough. And combined with the fact that I was going back to work because that's when things got really bad. So I was entering an environment that had changed. It had changed because I hadn't been there for a long time, so that there were certain things that had changed, but I had changed as well. And being part time, I think was it? It was it was partly to ease me back in to the working environment. It was partly financial decision as well because whoa, childcare is expensive!!!
Emily:
So I've heard.
Jennifer:
It was, it was just very very different. So to come back into that environment and I almost feel like the days I was in work, I felt that there was a bit of me that was still there. I can I can go back into this role. I can be Dr. Paxton, you know, I could put on that armour again and I can just get on with things and give me a sense of self-worth again. But it didn't work because I just felt like I wasn't doing enough and work. I hadn't really acknowledged to myself that I was part time, so I was trying to squeeze full time into part time underachieving, feeling like a failure, and then going home and feeling like a failure and feeling guilty that I had wanted to go to work to escape those feelings of failing as a parent, but then going to work and feeling just as bad for different reasons and. I continued for a few months before I said anything. And this this idea of talking to the people that are closest to you, it's a very, very hard thing to tell the people that you love and they love you. It's so hard to tell them that you're not happy because they immediately want to fix it and they think that they've done something wrong. And, you know, I've mentioned my husband before, and he's never been anything other than wonderful, but I can't imagine what that must have been like for him.
Jennifer:
He thinks he's got this lovely, new, happy family. And yet here I am seeing I'm not happy. You know, that that must have been so hard for him to hear that as well. So I had things for a long time because I didn't want I didn't want to let anybody down. I don't want to let my husband think that I was unhappy with any life choices that we'd made. I didn't want my parents to think that I was not not happy with this lovely little girl that had come into our lives. And that's that's another thing that I don't think people really understand, is that you can feel the lowest of the low, but you can also still feel that joy from your baby girl. You know, it wasn't that I was completely just hating every second of it. Not at all. I was having wonderful days with her, but I just I couldn't shake this background feeling of failure, not good enough, not achieving. And so ultimately what had actually happened was that I spoke to a colleague and it was seeing these things out loud and I was seeing them in the context of work. I was seeing that I didn't feel like I felt I fitted in anymore. I didn't know what my role was in many of the things that had been my responsibility were no longer my responsibility. So I was struggling from that point of view.
Jennifer:
But it was it was easier to see that to somebody that wasn't going to be directly emotionally affected by what I was seeing. I was seeing I'm not happy. I'm not happy in this environment. And it was him that, you know, he he just kind of took a step back and just said, you know, I'm worried about you. I'm worried about some of the things that you're saying, some of the terminology that you're using as everything. Okay? And no, it wasn't okay, but it felt like such a wait when somebody had actually asked that. But I wasn't depending on on that. I wasn't really scared about what their emotional reaction was going to be, because we were talking in a work context. But there were there were there were other undertones there. And it was that meeting that that shocked me into saying, I really need to get some help with this and I need to talk to somebody else. I need to talk to somebody who's not my husband or my mom or my dad or, you know, somebody that could be hurt by some of the stuff that I'm going to see. And yeah, that was that was the turning point for me, I think was that meeting and yeah, I think about that meeting often and what, what may have happened had I not knocked on that door that day. I don't know.
Emily:
Yeah. And it sounds like that person, you know, responded in. I think a lot of people don't know how to respond in that situation. And so to have someone that was seemingly quite empathetic and quite non-judgmental and to express concern about you as well, rather than saying something like there's something wrong with you or, you know, there are so many things that people can say that can be problematic in that kind of scenario. So, you know, it's good to hear that there were people that sort of knew how to handle that. Conversation appropriately, at least from the outside. Obviously, I don't really know what exactly went on, but yeah, there are a few different things that sort of came up for me as you were talking through that. So I guess in terms of the moms groups, you know, and for you looking around and it's seeming like everyone else, you know, was really put together and had it all worked out. I feel like that's such a common perception in so many different areas of life, and I think it's really natural for us to compare ourselves to other people. But in academia, you know, where people are putting on this armor and putting on these masks and you don't see the vulnerability or the weaknesses. It's so easy to assume that everyone's fine and everyone's got it worked out. And I think from what I understand, you know, a lot of new mums do that as well and you know, try to pretend like they've got it all together because they feel like they should. But for me, like the more I learn about it, you know, I've got quite a few close friends that have had children now. It just it's such a huge transitional period, you know, it shifts your identity as a woman.
Emily:
It shifts the relationship with your partner. It it shifts so many things. And so to me, it seems it seems like obvious that this is going to be a challenging period for people and there should be acceptance of that within society. And, you know, that should absolutely be talked about, that it's a difficult transitional period and all of these different things come up and that that's, you know, it's pretty normal. So I think, again, you know, you talking about this, I 100% know that there are so many other people that have those feelings and have those thoughts. And it's so great that that you're willing to talk about it. I think in terms of opening up to someone that doesn't necessarily have an emotional, you know, that's impartial, where you can talk about what you're dealing with and not be concerned about how that's going to impact them emotionally. I can I can totally understand that as well. And I mean, I think that's where, you know, personally for me, therapy is is so helpful because I'm able to just like blurt out exactly what I'm thinking and not worry about the response. Whereas, you know, your brain has to process like so many things when you're doing that with a romantic partner and I mean even with a work colleague, like I'm sure there would have been things that you were concerned about in having that conversation and you touched on returning from maternity leave part time. And I might go back to that in a second, but it just made me want to ask you, what are the supports that you ended up seeking during that time?
Jennifer:
So the major thing was I knew from myself that I needed to talk to somebody. And, you know, like we've said, somebody that wasn't going to be affected by what I was seeing. And I needed that to be a safe space where I could see whatever I needed to see and get things off my chest without worrying about the repercussions of relationships or job or career or anything like that. So, I mean, I was in the fortunate position that I'd been referred as a a pretty urgent case to the mental health team and the local NHS services here. Urgent case, of course that still meant a six month wait for me to get seen. So I was fortunate that I was in the position where I could seek private therapy and you know, that that was it was a decision that I had to take. It was not cheap. It was not cheap at all. But, you know, discussing with my husband, we decided that the investment was probably worth it if it was going to help me get back to some kind of normality. I mean, I knew that things were never really going to be the same again, but I went into it with the hope that, okay, they might not be the same, but maybe they'll even be better. Maybe this is something that I need to do to to be better than what was going on before, because I did touch on this on on the blog. But this kind of diagnosis of anxiety and depression, it was all made under the umbrella of post-natal.
Jennifer:
And I, I felt that. Yes. Okay. That it probably is the combination of the the hormones, the transition in my life, you know, it probably was. But these thoughts and feelings of inadequacy and worrying about everything, I'd had them for years and it had probably fade in to. A lot of the things that we discussed earlier about this idea of being in an academia that's focused that, you know, you don't take time off or you don't prioritize your own well-being because you are working hard. You're made to feel guilty for taking any time off. And then we haven't even started talking about rejection and rejection. And academia is just one of the things that you have to get used to. But nobody ever really told me that. Nobody prepared me for that. And so the first time I got a paper rejected, I thought that was it. You know, I thought that was my career. But I was only a PhD student and I thought, Oh, this is how am I supposed to deal with this? So coming back to the main point, I think that although I had been diagnosed with this post in Italy, for me it was it was a bit of a milestone in that I had finally admitted to myself that my ways of thinking and my ways of coping were not healthy. And just adding my daughter into the mix and all the emotions and all the difficulties in returning to work had had just exactly.
Jennifer:
I can't see that word amplified, exacerbated. So I mean, that that really is, I think, a huge admission for me. And it took me ages to really get to the point where I could see that openly, but I'd had anxiety for years. I can't really remember a time where it wasn't part of me and taking this decision to go for therapy, I was terrified that I was going to find out things about myself that I didn't like. And I was also terrified that the me that had managed to get to the career position that I had, that I had got to. And I was so, so scared that therapy would somehow change me. And I hadn't really considered about that being for the better. I always thought that that would be for the worse, and it would be to my detriment. But it was that change in mindset where I did think maybe this could make me better than I had been before. I'm not just trying to go back to the normal, but maybe this is something that would be better around. So it wasn't a decision that was easy to me. I was terrified. I didn't really want to I don't really want to go there, but I knew that I had to for mainly for my family. You know, at this point, I think career was was definitely in second place. No, it was my family. I needed to do it for them.
Emily:
Yeah. And I can relate to not wanting to go to therapy and I can also relate to feeling like it was going to change me. I've been in therapy for something like four years now and I'm really happy that I've done it. But before that I repressed all of my emotions and I think that was one of the things that helped me work as hard as I did and be as like, again, external perception of success but be as successful as I was like through my high school and my undergrad. And yeah, when I was super struggling as well on paper, I was accepted to give a talk at the National Diabetes Conference in the first year of my PhD. Like that's pretty unusual, you know, like, and I was like really, really struggling. So I used to repress all this emotion. And I remember as I was starting to go through the therapy that kind of caused that repression to lift. And I started to notice those emotions and actually feel them and learn to manage them. That was bloody painful. And I remember thinking so many times like I feel like it was easier before. Like I feel like it was easier when I didn't have to feel all of this.
Emily:
Like, okay, like maybe this is going to make things better in the end, but I kind of want to go back to what it was like before so I can I can totally, from my experience, relate to to that. So you mentioned you returned from maternity leave initially part time, and that did pose some problems for your work productivity and how some of the other workers viewed and included you. And I think we've talked about this before, but I can totally understand how there would be a temptation to. Yeah, you did. You mentioned that you were trying to squeeze full time into part time. And again, I know other mothers that that have done that. I can understand the temptation to blow the. Boundaries and look at work emails and address work stuff. Like when you're with your children and you know, particularly you've indicated that you're a perfectionist as well. So that plays into that temptation to to want to absolutely do your best. And like, I don't know whether it was through therapy that you helped develop some of this or whether this was prior. But what are some of the things that you put in place to help manage being a part time worker?
Jennifer:
I think therapy did help me with that in a way. And one thing I think is quite important to see about the therapy aspect is that it took me about four or five therapists before I found one that was that was actually helping me. I had one therapist that I saw every week for maybe about six weeks or so, and I left the appointment every time feeling worse than I did when I'd gone in, mainly because her response to me was was not practical or helpful in any way. It was more, Oh, you've had a really hard time, haven't you? And, and then, you know, some of the stuff I would tell her, she would start crying herself and I thought, this is, this is that's just not helpful. So I think I just wanted to say that for anybody who is considering going to therapy, don't be afraid to to try different therapists to find one that works for you. Because the strategies that I use now and really the way I have changed my thinking has been because of one particular therapist who actually ended up being the NHS therapist that I had been put on the waiting list for for six months and eventually got to see them. And it is, it's, it's a relationship that you build up with somebody. But they gave me so many such useful techniques that I still use and really did change the way that I approached many things in my life. And one of those was this idea of being a perfectionist and why I'm like that and what kind of external validation is it that I'm always looking for and really challenged me on a lot of those thoughts. And I, I soon realized that it wasn't anybody else that was putting this pressure on me.
Jennifer:
It wasn't my work, it wasn't my family, it was all me. And it had been me for years and years and years. So I had to. It was challenging to change. And I can see honestly, now that I am 100% always following this right path, I think I flip back into my over perfectionism, I would call it now, but just having someone else to speak to and to challenge me on so many of the thoughts that I had just accepted for years. And when I see years, I mean since I can remember. So yeah, I think that was that was a main thing. And then one of the other techniques that he told me was was to start to try and stop thinking of myself as or try to separate myself out from the events that are happening. And this really great analogy of saying you are the sky and the clouds pass through the sky, and sometimes they're grey clouds and sometimes they're white clouds. But it was a total change in mindset for me to start thinking about me just as an entity on my own, to just as the sky and not as all those grey clouds that were repeating all the time. Because I was always one of these people who would focus on everything negative and ignore anything positive. And it took for him to see those things to me and challenge me on that, to eventually take that step back and go, okay, I see this behavior in myself. I know that this behavior is not helpful. I have to start thinking of myself as the sky and not as each black cloud that comes along.
Emily:
Yeah. Again, like and I guess I never know whether this seems invalidating when I continue to say that I can relate because obviously everyone's experience is a unique. So yeah, I don't know if there's anyone in the audience that finds that jarring, please let me know. But I used to think so, like I wasn't allowed to be upset or be angry or you know, I saw myself in such a negative light when I had any kind of I'm not going to say negative emotion because emotions are emotions and but difficult emotions, you know, like I just saw myself so negatively when I was having those and I've not heard that analogy before, but I think I've probably gone through a similar process of like, I am me. And, you know, there are these different emotions that I experience. You know, sometimes I lack the feeling, sometimes I don't lack the feeling, but it'll always pass if it's something that I don't like. And I think being able to learn that, that it'll always pass and being able to learn to look back at a time when things were easier and, you know, see that I've learned to kind of ride this kind of roller coaster or ride these waves makes each time that that happens a little bit easier so that it sort of does answer a little bit of another question that I was going to ask you, which was about how you started to learn to care less about what others thought of you once you realized that you did focus a lot on external validation. So it seems like that therapist was quite instrumental in that in sort of challenging you on some of the thought patterns you had around that. But yeah, just going back to my my initial question about things you put in place to help manage being part time, do you think you ever reached a balance with that or do you think most of the time you were trying to fit full time into part time and then you went full time?
Jennifer:
I think honestly, no, I didn't ever reach a balance that I was comfortable with. And in some ways each individual situation is different, of course. But I always liken it to, as I think I said before, this, this idea of not just being in academia, but running a research lab means that it is it's a full time responsibility. And it's a bit like a business where you are responsible for where the money's coming in and the grant deadlines don't suddenly extend because you're on a part time contract. You know, you still have to meet the same deadlines as everybody else. And so it was clear to me that I didn't feel like I could do my job working part time. I couldn't do my job to the best of my ability. Noel Counter That was saying that I did manage to change my expectations about what was good enough, which I'll revisit later. But for me, I just couldn't see how I could keep this up and how I could work part time, but still meet all the same deadlines as every fulltime worker was. And I suppose there is a bit of difficulty when you're working in a team. You don't want to be the person who's taking on less or who's causing others to have to take on more.
Jennifer:
So quite unusually, I would say in an era family, what we decided to do is that I went back to work full time and my husband went part time. He was part time for two years. He's a primary school teacher, so it was actually quite easy for him to do that without losing his full time position. But funnily enough, it was an initiative in the local council that had never been taken up by a meal before because it was always mothers who were returning to work after maternity leave and who wanted to work part time for two years before going back to their original full time position. But he investigated and he was allowed to do that as well. Being the father, which really was the best thing for our family at that time, it allowed me to get back to the me that I was happier with, but it also allowed my husband to have some amazing time with his little girl that I know he is so grateful for. And his career had to slow down a bit, but he was happy to do that.
Emily:
Yeah. And it's great that he was able to get access to that as well. I my partner is actually told me that if we ever have kids, he would be super happy to be a stay at home dad. So it's nice to have. It's nice to have men that are that are willing to challenge, like some of those traditional roles as well. Because I know women often push for it. But yeah, it's, it's it's good to see that sort of starting to happen. And hopefully that will lead to more and more change in that area and more and more acceptance of the different ways that families can be managed as well. So I, I have a few more questions, but we're pretty close to the end of our time for this. So I don't know how to handle this because some of them are like pretty big questions. I might skip this one about how you became more efficient at work. I know you mentioned that the to do list was quite helpful for that in your blog, but perhaps if anyone has questions around that, they can contact you via Twitter. I think the one that's probably most important to touch on at the end of this episode is how colleagues and supervisors within academia could better support returning parents, and also how academic structure might be changed to better support parents. So I know you had some negative experiences with some work colleagues when you returned to work after maternity leave. So like, how do you think work colleagues and supervisors could perhaps better support returning parents based on your experience?
Jennifer:
I think there just needs to be far more open discussion about this. Perhaps it is within academia, as we've mentioned before, this expectation of always being on you, always being on duty, always being available for things. I think there just needs to be more discussion about what is feasible for somebody and having that quite honest and upfront conversation when people return to the workplace. But also after a little while, because I think one of my major challenges was actually that people accept that you're away on maternity leave and that's, you know, that's fine and you don't get emails. Nobody ask you to do anything because you're on maternity leave. But when you come back or you're back to work now, so you can do this, this, this, this and this, but you're still dealing with what could be a very young baby, depending on when you want to go back. But still, at age four, I'm dealing with many unpredictable things that come up in my my day to day life. And so what I really would encourage people to do is to, as best as you can, have these conversations with managers, supervisors, colleagues.
Jennifer:
And I think one really positive thing to come out of the pandemic is the fact that I think we all are a bit more aware of what each other's home lives are like and the additional responsibilities. So perhaps it might be easier to have those kind of conversations now than it may have been two or three years ago. I think it's important for managers to just check in on people as each individual relationship is going to be different. Of course it is. But I think that's been for me, it's been important that I've felt like I can go to somebody when things are just too much or something's come up in family life and I have to deal with it and know that there's not going to be repercussions for that. And again, communication. I think that if more people are open about this and other challenges that are going on, then most people are nice people. Most people want to help. You don't need to set behind this wall of armor all the time. And having a life outside of your job does not make you less committed to your job.
Emily:
Yeah, I agree. The final question is, yeah, again, it's more of a long term change that will be required. But as a parent in academia, what do you think about the academic structure could be changed to make your situation as a parent easier?
Jennifer:
That's a really hard one to answer. Yeah, I really don't know what major things could change. I think there have been steps in the right direction. I think that you're particularly funding bodies that will take things like periods of maternity or paternity leave is coming in as well. We'll take that into account when you're applying for new investigator type awards that have a time limit on them, you know, a lot of those seem to have been scrapped so that they'll take into account these periods of low productivity, as we would call it. Um.
Emily:
I know in theory that happens, but in practice it's maybe not as reliable. I don't know if that's been your experience.
Jennifer:
I haven't had any direct experience of that, so it's probably unfair of me to comment, but I certainly hear a lot more about that. Whether it is happening in practice or not, I don't know. That is a major thing. But I just I feel that academia itself just needs a bit more of a wake up call and that you're driving so many really talented and committed individuals out of this environment where they think that they can make a decent contribution because they might want to have a family or, you know, we're specifically talking about family, but it could be any other number of things. It could be a holiday home at the weekend that they always want to go to. Or it could be caring responsibilities for parents or a huge number of other things that people don't feel like they're allowed to have. And although nobody tells you you're not, it's just this unspoken culture. And so it's never going to be a quick fix. But I do think the more people talk about their particular challenges and the more you see people in senior roles that have been able to do both. When I was at university, I, I didn't see any female professors. I just didn't they weren't on my radar.
Jennifer:
And then as I started to progress, I'd see a few female professors, and then suddenly there's a lot more. But then you look at them and, and I've got a couple of mentors that are female professors and they've got families. And for me, I just thought, You're amazing. This is what I want. This is achievable. And so communication and letting people see that it is possible to have both, it's not always going to be easy, but I don't think that we can say that that's just in academia. I think there are so many other careers where sometimes you do need to work late one night. Sometimes you do have a deadline where you have to finish something on a weekend. But the key thing and what I tried to say to my own trainees is that that's the exception. That's not the norm. So sometimes you'll need to stay in the lab late and collect data because that is the experiment. But it's not the norm. It's not what you should always be planning to do, and you certainly shouldn't be planning to have seven days straight in the lab because I know from experience detrimental that that is eventually.
Emily:
Yeah, I slept in the lab during my own year, which I do not recommend. I think a lot of people have got stories about going too far with that. But yeah, I think that's that's a really good place to tie up today's episode. And again, just want to thank you for being open about your experiences and sort of sharing your perspective on how things could potentially be shifted. I think there are a lot of other topics around parenthood that I would love to cover on the podcast as well. So hopefully this is just the start of covering some of those topics. But I yeah, I hope you're able to go and visit your brother and his family soon in New York, sometime in the near future. And yeah, I'd love to see some photos of of your daughter on your Twitter. I don't know if that's something that you do, but I'll certainly try to keep in contact with you and engage with you on #AcademicTwitter in the future as well. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.
Jennifer:
Okay. Thank you so much. It's it's been it's been really quite emotional sharing all that again. But, you know, as a as I said at the start, I think it's important that we do share these things so that other people know that they're not alone. And, you know, things do get better.
Emily:
Absolutely.
Emily:
So a final reminder, if listeners would like to get in touch with Jennifer, she's available on Twitter at Dr_JZP. That brings us pretty close to the end of today's episode to you listening. Thank you. I know there are a lot of things vying for your attention, so thank you for choosing to share some of your time with me. I'd love to know what part of Jennifer's story spoke to you. Let me know on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science. Otherwise, I look forward to having you with me again in a couple of weeks. We'll hear from a different academic about their academic mental health story. Bye for now.
Emily:
Before you go, we have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.CheckPointOrg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. If you like the podcast, please leave a review. Subscribe or tell your friends. It'll help more people find us. I'm part of the larger voices of academia volunteer team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. You can follow the voices of academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website. www.VoicesOfAcademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, ex-academic, or any other type of researcher, visit the link in the episode description or visit our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. For details on how to share your story.
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