Ep9_Entrepreneurship and volunteering as healing_Dr. Mohamad Nadim Adi.mp3
Ep9_Entrepreneurship and volunteering as healing_Dr. Mohamad Nadim Adi.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep9_Entrepreneurship and volunteering as healing_Dr. Mohamad Nadim Adi.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hi, no specific trigger warnings today, but as always, please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support if you need it. Today's guest, associate professor, Dr. Mohammad Nadim Adi, debunks the myth that it's impossible to leave, then return to academia. Nadim discusses the mental health benefits of starting his own business and volunteering for an organization that made him feel valuable before deciding to give Accademia another shot.
Nadim:
When you are doing your Ph.D. and when you're or your postdoc, you're always surrounded by other people doing the exact same thing in the you are pretty much everybody is doing research in one capacity or another. And because you're in that environment, you kind of don't appreciate how much work goes into research. And when you step out, you start noticing. Oh, well, I can meet multiple deadlines. I can I can do creative thinking and solve unusual problems in a way that maybe a person who hasn't gone through the rigors of research might approach. So that kind of gives you builds up your confidence. Again, you realize that for lack of a better word, you're an important player in that sense. So I think that's that's really a big part of what's kind of helped me gain some of my confidence back.
Emily:
Nadim opened up previously in Episode eight about perfectionism and micromanaging postdoc supervisor and leaving academia for a few years. I highly recommend going back to have a listen to the first part of his story before jumping in here. A quick shout out to the Nadim's Twitter account, because I know some of you might miss it at the end if you find a story relatable, inspiring or otherwise, I'm sure he'd love to know. He's available on Twitter at Emna. Nadim Addy, click the link in this episode's description.
Emily:
Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King, it's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalize difficult conversations, reduce stigma
Speaker3:
And help people feel less alone. Let's get into it. So we recovered off a few things, I think that was a bit of mention of some of the things that supported you through some of the difficult times that you've had in academia. So I know you mentioned you sort of shifted your mindset a little bit. I think perfectionism is something that a lot of academics struggle with and starting to learn to sort of. Ignore or fight back against that voice in the back of your head, that telling that's telling you you're not enough can can be really difficult. But for you, it's been really, really beneficial. And it seems like you sort of attribute part of your ability to to do that, to having left academia for a time and working in your own private company. You said that that sort of helped you build confidence and so much so that you actually returned to academia and have now gone to the level of assistant professor. So I yeah, I guess I'd really like to delve a little bit more into sort of what you think it is about having had your own company, that that really helped you gain back that confidence, because I think it can be so easy to have tunnel vision in academia and and the fact that you've kind of gone away and then come back, I see on Twitter all the time. That's something that a lot of academics are considering. But it's it's scary. Right. So I'd be really interested to know what sort of supported you through some of those decisions and what helped you gain back that confidence?
Nadim:
I think a big part I have to take it to to my wife who stood by me, and she said she did go through her own Ph.D. So if she so she kind of had a first hand experience of what goes what happens to a person, what they do, obviously, I think. But at the same time, she was very supportive. And I think that's that's a big, big thing. And she was happy to support me stepping out of academia for a while and exploring, doing my own kind of work, my own company. I think in terms of what about starting your own work that helps you from a mental health point of view, is that when you're doing your own work, you're kind of you're forced to take command or you're kind of the boss in that scenario, in a sense, even if you have several partners working with you and you start taking major decisions. And I think the important thing is that because you're doing the you're taking these decisions, be it something as trivial or were we going to get coffee or something as as important? Are we going to buy this type of machinery or that type of machinery? All of these things like you doing these decisions day and that kind of gets you to think, well, OK, I'm capable of taking these decisions and they're usually working out.
Nadim:
I'm not as bad as I thought. I can't take control of a project. And that is your own project and it can work well. So you start appreciating that about yourself and you also start appreciating that. OK, well, might be that like my central research and my postgrads study did kind of prepare you to be in a leadership role, if that makes any sense, because when you are doing your Ph.D. and when you're or your postdoc, you're always surrounded by other people doing the exact same thing in the university where pretty much everybody is doing research in one capacity or another. And because you're in that environment, you kind of don't appreciate how much work goes into research. And when when you step out, you start noticing, oh, well, I can meet multiple deadlines. I can I can do creative thinking and solve unusual problems in a way that maybe a person who hasn't gone through the rigors of research might approach. So that kind of gives you builds up your confidence. Again, you realize that for lack of a better word, you're an important player in that sense. So I think that's that's really a big part of what kind of helped me gain some of my confidence back.
Speaker3:
I'm really glad to hear that you had a supportive partner. I think that's that's one of the crucial parts of my story as well. I guess another question I have is what made you open your own company? I guess if because I can just imagine. Being in a position where your confidence has sort of been shaved away to a degree in an academic environment, which I think is something that happens for a lot of people, I imagine you'd sort of feel incapable of leading people to a degree. So how did you sort of navigate that? Did you have that experience and how did you navigate that?
Nadim:
Well, luckily, I had a good role model and my dad so he kind of he's a mechanical engineer who kind of because of his kind of work for me, he kind of left corps mechanical engineering and worked in construction, which which is a very easy path for engineers to go through. But at a certain point, and I think I was in high school at the time, he decided to open up his own work. And I saw how difficult it was in the first couple of years. But then I, I also saw how kind of empowering and liberating it was for him, because it's you feel you have control over your life and a sense once you do that. So I was kind of encouraged by that example. And in my case, it was kind of when I started looking into my company and it was such a departure from what I usually do. I was looking at digital currency, so I wanted to do the scientific kind of approach. So I, I bought a machine. I think it was for two hundred dollars, I think at the time. And that was kind of the basis of I think that was the the seed of the company really.
Nadim:
So I experimented with it for a few months and I think I made three hundred or four hundred dollars back and sold the machine for three hundred dollars and thought, OK, there might be something there that's worth pursuing. So so I did a pilot experiment and it went well and I decided to go all. And that's the thing. I think in a way I was fortunate to have that although I was using any new technology, I was excited about it. So when I was working at that and it wasn't so far off from my field and I think the other anchoring presence at the time is that I was still volunteering in and research organizations. So I never felt that I was that I was one hundred percent cut off from the academic world in a sense. So and the back of my mind or in my head, I was thinking, OK, although I'm working on my own work and my private company, my volunteer work is still tying me to the academic world. So I didn't sever that connection completely.
Speaker3:
Mhm. I personally I yeah. I think that would be a crucial element because I, when I took time off my PhD, I was kind of severed from that environment and that's what made it so, so, so difficult to go back. So I imagine that would have had a really big role to play. What kind of volunteer work? What are you doing?
Nadim:
So I volunteered with a with a few organizations. The first one was the local postdoc association in my university in Edmonton. And that was that was a good start. What happened through that is that I got to know a a national organization, which is the Canadian Association of Postdocs. I got to know the work that they do, which is to kind of try to get postdocs to be considered as employees rather than trainees, which was the case in Canada for a while. And it did have implications at the time because postdocs at the time were considered trainees. That meant they had no access to parental leave or employment, insurance or pension. And more than that, international postdocs could not get the work permit because being a trainee meant that the minute they left their postdoc, they're considered you came here to train rather than than study or work. So you're in kind of visa limbo in a sense. So I was kind of encouraged when I heard that and learned that that organization worked to kind of change that. And so I went full time with with that organization in terms of volunteering. And we were quite lucky that we managed. The list, those says proper employees now in Alberta, and I think it's already been either already or about the change in the entirety of Canada. So that's one of those things that caused me to be very proud of the work we've done in that organization, and also because I was very proud of that work and reflected on my own mental health. So I was thinking, OK, well, I can do things and I can do good things and improve the quality of life for four people. So I'm not as bad as I think in a way.
Speaker3:
So it's a yeah, it's a fantastic achievement. What encouraged you to sort of stop doing that volunteer work? Was that after you left your post, doc, and you sort of trying to make some decisions about what to do? Was it a choice that you made to stay connected to research?
Nadim:
Well, I think I got into the volunteering scene when I was doing my master's in the U.K. and I liked it because it kind of it gets you to meet people and interact with different groups of people and the university that you wouldn't necessarily interact with because you'd see different students from different departments. And I love that about doing my master's years. I made a lot of good connections and good friends. And during my day, I kind of didn't volunteer. And I think that might have been a mistake on my part because it kind of caused me to become kind of isolated in a sense, which happens associate of you, you develop tunnel vision as you would, and you don't focus on anything else. So in my postdoc, I thought, well, I need to volunteer just to have that kind of social outlets in a sense, and and to get to know people from around the university. And if nothing else, when you volunteer in an organization, you get together and you get to talk about different things. So you get an appreciation for what goes on beyond your lab. So I think. That's it started during my postdoc and I continued volunteering. Matter of fact, I still volunteer to to this day with cops as an adviser, although I'm not as present, I'm still there more or less. And I think that that kind of helps because it's it forces you to think outside of the box and get different points of view. And I think that's very helpful so that you don't get yourself boxed up again.
Speaker3:
It's a it's a really great point. And I I'm now realizing that I was doing a stack of volunteer work at the start of my day and I've now dropped it off. Maybe I should reconsider, but that that kind of leads me into the next question that I had, though, because one of the things that I've. Come across so often as people tell you to do this and do that and do this and do that, whatever, at whatever stage of your academic career you're at, and that can feel very, very overwhelming, like you need to be taking part in a million and one things to sort of be successful. So how did you juggle the volunteer work with the other responsibilities that you had?
Nadim:
You take baby steps, I think. And in my case it was baby steps. So initially when I volunteered, it was meeting for one hour per month and that was really it. And then when I started enjoying volunteering, I started taking on more responsibility. Maybe I'm not. So ideal thing would be just to take a whole bunch of volunteering right from the get go because that's it would overload you. That would be such a shock to your system. So I think just go with the flow and do what you're comfortable with and and also with volunteering. The nice thing about that is that at the end of the day, you are volunteering and you can simply just say, well, you know what, I can't do it anymore. There's more responsibility here and there, and that's fine. You shouldn't feel you shouldn't feel bad about it. And in a sense, because it's you're doing it to help and you're also the benefits you're getting from it as well. The experience for sure. But at the same time, helping people has a really good impact on your own wellbeing. So in that way, I think that that's the nice thing about it. Of course, everybody's kind of trajectory or journey is different and I think more so and and research.
Nadim:
I've known colleagues who decided to go into their first story into their Ph.D. at at the age of 60. And they feel happy about it and they're and they're excited about it. So I thought that was a good example. I think a good role model for me, thinking, OK, so that's fine. I think the main thing is what we do sometimes when we were going through our social media is that we see all the highlights of everybody's life and we think, oh, I don't have as many highlights. And I think it's it's the same thing we used to do. When you look at, for instance, action figures or kids' toys and you'd look at that character like the Hulk with even his eyebrows have muscles. And I think, you know, I'm nowhere near that. And we learn to kind of ignore that. That's an unrealistic standard. And I think that's the same thing with us. You can't have a highlight every week of the of the every week of the year. It's fine. It's OK to have to have a quiet kind of life trajectory. That's fine, too.
Speaker3:
There is one final question that I sort of have, and then I'll say if there's anything else you'd like to add. But do you think that anything could have been done to prevent you from feeling like you weren't cut out to be in academia and that could have maybe prevented you from leaving for that time? I think.
Nadim:
That's it's an interesting question. I think it's it's one of those scenarios where it's hindsight 20, 20, I think in a way when when you're in the thick of it, you kind of never notice the kind of support systems that usually every university might have. But I think one of those things that might really impact the life quality of researchers in general is if they get like an information package at the beginning of their journey saying, well, you might get stressed, you might feel down. That's absolutely normal. It happens. And here are some things that you can go and access if you need support. These are some ways that you can get support. And it's absolutely fine. I think I think that would have been helpful, I think. Yeah, but other than that, the systems are there. It's just they're not as advertised as they should be. The other thing is that there is quite a good amount of importance to having a good lifestyle. So I know we do this for me. I tend to stay up late and wake up early and that causes burnout, throw it throughout your life. But I think it's important to highlight that all you should eat healthy, you should exercise even if it's a little bit, but it does improve your mental well-being in a way. So I'm learning that myself at this age. So so I'm hoping that younger researchers are smarter than me and they learn that
Speaker3:
Sometimes it's so hard to do what you know is right for you.
Nadim:
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker3:
Yeah, I totally agree. I'd love for that to be sort of an introductory session for younger researchers to sort of give you an idea of what you might experience and maybe some prevention strategies and some management strategies. That's something I would love to have become accessible. But yeah, I agree as well. The support systems are there, but I guess it's these kinds of conversations and normalizing that, you know, it might happen. It's fun. A lot of people go through it. They don't necessarily talk about it. So you might not be aware, but I guess that's the other really crucial point to sort of helping people manage when they do have their own experiences.
Nadim:
Exactly. Exactly. I think the the other thing is that we've done quite a bit of work on that and some of the organizations as to how I like to talk to young researchers that you might not end up in academia. And that's absolutely fine, because the kind of the running rhetoric, and I'm glad that it's changing bit by bit, is that you do your job and you end up as an academic. And if you deviate from that, then you've messed up somewhere. And that's not really the case. And I think it's more important than ever to have that conversation and to highlight that conversation and saying, well, a PhD holder is really a person who can think logically, think on their feet and lead effectively. And that means they're suited to a variety of roles. You're not limited by academia. You can you can have several positions and and several successful positions in different fields. And that's and that's absolutely fine. It's not it's not it's not the best thing that might be even a better thing in terms of in terms of maybe income or life and work balance. It might even be better.
Speaker3:
I will keep that in mind in my final year of my stay. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up the game?
Nadim:
Just maybe one or two things as that. It's very easy when you're doing research or when you're when you're working to kind of take the work with your home and just kind of thinking, well, you know, I'm enjoying work, so I'll do it anyway. So try to always have time for yourself away from work and sometimes even away from social media to to a certain extent, so that you'd focus on your own hobbies. And it's fine to have a hobby and whatever it is, just to focus on yourself. And the other things that I think I advocate for is that I try not to answer work email. During the weekend, I it's very tempting to to answer those in a weekend and to have an extra meeting with your supervisor and a weekend, and initially they'll your supervisor will be upset that you're not answering during the weekend. But a weekend or a holiday is one of those times. That's your time and you should treat it as your time. I think if there's one takeaway I took from doing my own work, is that really the biggest resource we've got this time? And you start measuring things by time rather than dollars or currency. And I think once you start doing that shift and shifting into that gear, I think that's that's when you realize, OK, so yes, I want to finish my work. I want to finish my research. But at the same time, I want to do it in a comfortable place so that I don't end up completely exhausted by by by the end of the week. And being able to recharge.
Speaker3:
Yeah, boundaries is something I'm learning myself at the moment. And one of the previous guests talked about how he's now got on his email signature. If if this email reaches you outside of your normal working hours, please know that I don't expect you to respond. Please only respond once you've returned to work. And I've adopted that now because I love that. And the I'm so glad also that you mentioned the, you know, working because you kind of want to because because I definitely had that as well. Before I burnt out, I, I'd stay till like 10:00, 11:00 at night, going down like a research literature rabbit hole. And I wanted to be that I was you know, I was enjoying it. But what I didn't realize was that I was missing out on time to sort of relax and rejuvenate and that that is so necessary to be able to, you know, be sustainable and continue to do what you need to do. So I'm glad that you brought that up as well. So I do want to thank you, like I said in the break. But just for the listeners, it's it's so great to have different people sort of come forward. We often have a lot of female voices and it's sometimes a bit more difficult to get some male voices. So I really appreciate you coming forward and I've had a really great time hearing your story. And yeah, I'd love to keep in touch and see some of the work that you continue to do in this space as well. So that that does wrap up today's episode of Voices of Academia. Thank you for joining me. On the next episode, we'll meet a brave new voice and hear different mental health story. I'm Emily King. Catch you next time. Before you go,
Emily:
We have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.checkpointorg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website. www.voicesofacademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely voices of academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @eking_sci for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @academicvoices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our Web site, www.voicesofacademia.com to sign up if you have a mental health awareness story to share. We absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, x academic or any other type of researcher. Fuller academic voices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website. www.voicesofacademia.com for details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
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