Ep7_Taking Time Off_Jess Marshallv4.mp3
Ep7_Taking Time Off_Jess Marshallv4.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep7_Taking Time Off_Jess Marshallv4.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey there, a quick warning before we star. Todays episode touches on sexual assault, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support, if you need it. In today's episode, I chat with recently minted Dr. Jessica Marshall, who touches on taking time off a day and the support she received from personal relationships, therapy and publicly available systems after she experienced sexual assault.
Jess:
My mom was super supportive in terms of putting my mental health first before my PhD, and that was one thing that I was really quite afraid of. I guess she comes from that very stereotypical Asian culture where your work and all your studies is very highly regarded. So when I told her that I could no longer work because of a particular situation, I was very scared in doing that. But she was supportive. She said, you need to take you need to have a break and take the time off.
Emily:
Jess opened up previously in Episode six about the relationship and identity losses she experienced during her PhD. I highly recommend going back to have a listen to the first part of a story before jumping in here. Again, today's episode was cut from a longer discussion, so please bear with me through my new editing skills.
Emily:
Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King, it's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalize difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it.
Emily:
We tackled some, you know, some difficult experiences of yours, so we touched on trying to manage severe anxiety exacerbated by some of the academic environment and also for you by a sexual assault. And we also talked a little bit about imposter syndrome and how childhood experiences can sort of impact your development and can also lead to some mental health concerns as well. I'd be really interested to know, you know, what was some of your support systems during this time? So you mentioned your sort of first experience with some mental health concerns, which was during the first year of your PhD. Who did you go to for support? What kind of support did you get? Did you go about that process? I'd be really grateful if you'd talk us through that.
Jess:
So at that time in my first year, I was with a now ex partner. And so he was a huge support, actually. And I really, I guess, poured all of my feelings and emotions onto him. And that was when I. Decided to go to regular therapy actually during that first incident, and I think we touched on it last episode, the financial situation of a Ph.D. student. Unfortunately for a lot of students, therapy is just out of their financial reach. And definitely that was something that I had to consider as well. But I think my, I think at the time my mom tried to help me out financially, and she was a huge support for me during that time because it explained a lot, why she decided to leave my dad and all of those questions about family history and and that side of my dad's family and and my mom trying to leave that side of my family. Now that all of the troops had come out, we were able to support each other. And and I realized that she had gone through all of that by herself. And now that I knew about things, I was able to support her and she was able to answer all of my questions and she was able to support me. So I will be forever grateful for her strength and for her support and getting our family through that.
Jess:
Yes. So finding a therapist was and can still be really difficult, especially something that you gel with really well, someone that you feel like you can trust, and also someone who you can you can financially afford. So for me, as a Ph.D. student, I have a low income concession card. So I was able to get really good rebates through Medicare. So I was seeing a private psychologist so out of pocket it would have been about one hundred and twenty hundred thirty dollars per session, which is quite expensive, especially if you, most of the time would need to see a therapist for a prolonged period of time so it can end up being quite costly. So for me, I think I ended up paying about 30 dollars out of pocket each time, which is not that bad. And and I decided that I needed to put my mental health first by seeing her. I was actually still seeing her when in my second year the assault happened. And we had just been going through, obviously, at that same time going through the breakup with that ex partner. So she's seen me through a lot of really traumatic things and her support in being able to write me support letters for the university so that I could get time off so that my leave of absence would be granted really quickly.
Jess:
She wrote letters to my advisory committee so that they understood what was going on. And again, it comes back to my issue of not feeling like my reasonings were adequate enough. But so I said to her actually, she asked me, would you like me to write a letter to your supervisors so that they can understand a bit more the situation? And I said, yes, please, because, again, I felt guilty for taking the time off. And I wanted them to understand what I was going through so that perhaps they wouldn't feel disappointed in me. And I already felt like I was a disappointment to them. So, you know, all of those feelings just sort of come up. Unfortunately, again, as I touched on last episode, when it comes to a sexual assault, especially with someone who you have mutual friends with, sometimes the support isn't there because those people don't believe that he could be capable of something like that. They just don't believe it happened. They don't believe that it was bad enough. Whatever their mind goes through, you do miss that support that you feel like you need to get from some of your friends. But it was some of my closest friends that helped me realize it was what it was. And being a researcher, I did a lot of research into sexual assault and what it means and you know it.
Jess:
Yeah, I I tried to support myself and to validate my own feelings and my own anger and my own guilt and shame, and I found actually a really good free legal service that I that I found through my therapist at the time. And they were amazing support as well. They were able to advocate for me through Vocat, which is a victims of crime tribunal. I think they were able to advocate for me to get the rest of my sessions with my therapist for free. So they were completely covered. I didn't have to pay any out-of-pocket costs. They advocated for me to also receive some money to be able to buy a new bed and to buy a new mattress, because obviously that can be quite triggering for someone that has gone through an assault, which was fantastic again. And I was just it sounds so silly, but just getting a new bed I was just over the moon with and that really, really helped me at the time. And it was it was nice because I was able to make it my own safe space because I was no longer feeling safe in my bedroom. And I ended up finding a new partner. And he, again, was just the biggest support. He oh, he's just so lovely and...
Emily:
Are you going to get married?!
Jess:
Soon! The ring's coming. But yeah. So he has really he's stood by me through everything through my darkest days, which I was a faithful girlfriend like during that time. And he stood by me and it was honestly like I, I probably wouldn't have stood by someone who was like that just because I was pretty foul. But yeah. So then I one of the things that my therapist told me to do or just even to focus on in my really, really dark days, was she described depression to me as as just a big tidal wave. And and I said to her, I just I honestly can't see myself not feeling like this. Like I can't see any glimmer of a light at the end of a tunnel. And she said, you just have to picture it as a tidal wave and eventually, like, that wave could be, you know, so so big, but eventually it will go down and eventually it'll just dissipate into the water. And you just have to ride the wave and take the time to ride it out and eventually you'll get there. And we don't know how long it will take, but it will happen and you just have to wait it out. So that was actually really helpful to try and visualize things in that way. And then she told me to write myself an epilogue and she said an epilogue. I didn't really know what that was or what that meant.
Jess:
And she said an epilogue is basically just a little catch up at the end of a story or something like that. And she said, write a little story or a letter to yourself. With the mindset of having gotten through it all and she said, even if you don't feel like that, even just putting yourself into that mindset can really, really help and help you get all of your anger out. It'll help you get over your frustrations out and all your feelings and of resentment towards that person and friends who haven't necessarily supported you as much as you would have liked them to and just the whole situation. And yeah. And so I did that and it was about three or four pages long. And I was really proud of myself for what I wrote down in the last page. She told me to write a story that was full of despite of, rather than because of. So, you know, instead of saying, like, woe is me, I am this because of what's happened to me. She said, try to focus on, I am this despite what has happened to me. And that was really powerful to just write those things down, even if I didn't believe it, but just to help my brain start to process it in that way. And I wrote all of these despite all things, and it made me realize, like, how much I was still able to go through and achieve despite my mental health.
Jess:
And that helped make me feel really proud of myself. So, yeah, that was really, that was really lovely. And and again, if someone listening has gone through a similar experience, there's a lot of support out there. So through Vocat, if you've never heard of Vocat before, I would I would really recommend looking into the supports that are available through them and also Socket, which is, I can't remember the exact acronym, but basically it's the, the sexual assault area of the police department who, you know, really help you and talk you through what's happened. And a lot of anger has come from, again, the fact that unfortunately, sometimes the police can't help you. And that was something that I really struggled with because I feel for myself in these sort of situations. My mind is very black and white. And my therapist really supported me and helped me be able to realize that with every woman or person coming forward, no matter what the outcome of them reporting the incident with every person coming forward and reporting it helps another woman or another person come forward. And, you know, every report shows. To the system that this is still happening and that things need to change. So, yeah, that therapist was super, super helpful.
Emily:
Yeah, it's so helpful to hear some of the the resources that you found. You know, I haven't personally had this experience and and I and I will be talking through this podcast with people that have had all different types of experiences that, you know, hopefully some of our listeners find someone that they can relate to that maybe has some resources for them. So thank you for sharing those. So, yeah. So I guess in summary, you know, your support systems were some, some personal relationships. Therapy was a really big one for you. And also deciding to and some of those support resources that you mentioned specific to to sexual assault and also taking some time off your PhD. So I guess I have a few questions. With the process of sort of taking time off, could you, you know, maybe talk us through through that process how you made that decision to take time off. What was the process like and sort of how you felt and what you were thinking through that as well, actually.
Jess:
So the timeline of everything was, is quite a bit warped. So the incident had happened in November, December. So I sort of suppressed everything. And I actually I didn't realize or understand fully what had happened to me until about February. I pushed on, which is looking back now, look, the most irresponsible thing that I could have done, I kept showing up to work. I think I had animal experiments running at the time. So I didn't feel like I had no other choice. As I mentioned in the last episode, my lab was basically just myself and my supervisor. And so if I didn't show up to run animal experiments, it wouldn't be done and that couldn't happen. So I really feel for these students who just even logistically don't have people in their lab who can support them in situations like this, because I had no other choice but to keep going into work because the experiments had to get done, because they were time conscious. And so I kept I kept working actually until about mid-year. So, you know, a good sort of four to five to six months. And I completely worked until I burnt myself out. And that was when I just said, I can't, I can't do it. And I sent my supervisor a text and said, I can't. I can't come in, I can't work anymore, and I think I took about a week off and then I went in physically into the office to to talk to him and he completely understood.
Jess:
I said to him, I think I need to take a prolonged time off. And he said that that was fine and are applying for a leave of absence. Actually, it can be quite stressful in itself. And I was already going through so much anxiety and I found the whole process, really difficult because you had to have all of these other things in place before you could get the time approved and you had to have all of your like, letters from practitioners and health care workers or whatever, you had to have all of that ready to go. And it was just. I felt like I was fighting an uphill battle and I just kept thinking to myself that sort of felt a bit unfair, that I had gone through all of these trauma. And now I have to prove to the university that I'd gone through all this trauma. And then I actually went overseas as part of my time off. My my mum took me to the Philippines, where she's from. And I went to go see I guess you could call her a bit of a healer. My mum is quite into that spiritual healing type of practice. And I went to go see this healer in some village. And, yeah, that wasn't the best experience.
Jess:
But she did teach me a few coping strategies. It wasn't the best experience because I was a part of, for some reason, I don't know if I believe in this, but she she knew what had happened to me somehow without my mum telling her, I think, and she sort of like put her hands over my clothes, but in areas which is quite triggering to try and I guess heal what had happened. And I ended up having a fight with my mum after saying, you know what I come here for and you let her touch me in that way. Like, how how did you think that that would have helped? But she gave me this little pendant thing that I had to wear and, she said that would protect me. And if I ever felt like I was having a wave of anxiety or having a panic attack, I was to put it in my mouth and to just close my eyes and deep breathe and count to 30. And I had a few panic attacks on that trip. And whether or not you believe in spiritual healing, the breathing exercise worked for myself. And I think that has a lot to do with grounding and meditation and mindfulness, which has actually got a lot of scientific research backing. So that side of her healing, I guess, worked for myself.
Emily:
It's great that you are able to get some something positive out of that experience in the in the Philippines. But I can understand that that approach for you might have been quite confronting. And it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, and it would have been very difficult that that caused some tension between you and your mom. So I guess this brings up one of the things that that I wanted to ask. I mean, having personal supports is fantastic because not everyone has that. But at the same time, you know, it can be very difficult to maintain relationships through some of these experiences. What were some things that that your personal supports, I guess, did well, and what was the thing? Some things that maybe, you know, you wish that they hadn't done?
Jess:
Yeah. So my mom was super supportive in terms of putting my mental health first before my PhD. And that was one thing that I was really quite afraid of. I guess she comes from that very stereotypical Asian culture where your work and all your studies is very highly regarded. So when I told her that I could no longer work because of a particular situation, I was very scared in doing that. But she was supportive. She said, you need to take you need to have a break and take the time off. In terms of the actual reasoning, why she didn't really understand. I felt quite victim blamed, unfortunately, by her. And but as I mentioned before, a few other people, which was really difficult in terms of support from my work and stuff. And my supervisor was. I thought was really good, he would ring or email a few times just to check in to see how I was going for myself, and I don't know whether, again, this is because I was just thinking with an unhealthy brain, but I was so fixated on the fact that he was ringing because he was disappointed in me and he wanted to see how much longer he was going to be disappointed for because I wasn't coming into work. I really wish that I had had more support from the head of our research and education liaison within our institute and our H&S person. Only because unlike my very sort of last day when I decided enough was enough, I had like a breakdown at work. I went to them to chat about the employee assistance program and obviously, like, divulged all of this information to them, told them about all of the things that I was thinking of doing to myself. And they knew that I had decided to take time off and to take a leave of absence. And unfortunately, I didn't get any type of welfare check from them afterwards. And just sort of looking back on it now, I feel like there needs to be more of a duty of care in academia and with supervisors and with people in positions of power. And then when I returned, most people didn't know. And the types of comments that people make after some time off, you know, I had the comments like, oh, it must have been so nice to, like, have a little break or have a little time off or whatever. Oh, you must be feeling so refreshed and so much better now. And it's just, it's so insensitive from that point of view. I really think that there needs to be. Better awareness so that those type of comments don't get made, especially when you're so vulnerable on your first or second day back.
Emily:
Yeah, and I totally agree. In your opinion, what would you perhaps recommend?
Jess:
So firstly, I would love to be able to advocate for people in positions of power or supervisors to do the mental health first aid course. I think just even learning about mental illness or the different types of ways that symptoms can manifest so that they can be able to pick up a bit easier in the employees would be so helpful. As I said, look, I try to push through for like half a year before I cracked and my supervisor didn't even notice. So perhaps if he had been more aware, that could have been helpful.
Emily:
Yeah, so we've sort of touched a little bit on some of the beneficial and maybe also some of the some of the detrimental ways that you supported, both personally and within academia. I guess the one that we haven't discussed as much is therapy. So you mentioned in the previous episode that you'd attended therapy earlier in your life before you entered academia. But I'd be interested to know, at what point did you decide that you wanted to seek out a therapist again? And did you feel any barriers to going to therapy?
Jess:
So, as I mentioned, I think the first barrier for me was cost, which I wish wasn't a barrier. And I really wish in Australia, we're in a first world country. I really wish that it wasn't a barrier for a lot of people. And sometimes it doesn't have to be with the Medicare rebates. But because I was seeing a private psychologist who I already trusted really well and who had a Ph.D., with that comes the extra out-of-pocket costs. So that was my first barrier. I always had feelings again coming back to not being unwell enough to go see a therapist. So I remember before each session, I would think in my head, OK, like what's there? All of the really bad shit that's happened this week that I can talk about, like, do I have enough bad stuff to talk about this week? And I think that that is quite unhealthy and quite judgmental of whatever scenario situation you're currently in. Now that I've learnt much more about mental health, I don't think you need a particular reason to go see a therapist at all. As an analogy, you don't go to the dentist once all your teeth have fallen out, you go to the dentist regularly for checkups as a preventative measure. And I think that should be the same mindset as to why you would go to a therapist to gain the tools to be able to get yourself through situations, perhaps before you get to that situation. They suggested good books to read or good podcasts to listen to. I just want to give a plug to my favorite person, Oshi Ginzberg. His book called Back After the Break, really helped me through some of my really dark and lost times. And his book really helped me feel sane and understood.
Jess:
Another thing that perhaps listeners haven't heard about, but that I also tried earlier this year was a particular type of therapy called EMDR, and I just wanted to bring it up as well in case there is someone out there that has PTSD and hasn't heard of EMDR therapy. So EMDR is basically eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It's apparently quite new to the psychotherapy field. And so it can't be done over telehealth all over Zoom. So you do have to be in person now unfortunately with the new like lockdown rules and stuff. But if the therapist you're sitting quite closely in front of her and you follow her finger moving left to right with your eyes like really, really rapidly, so your head stays straight, but your eyes move left and right quite rapidly. And she does that for, I don't know, maybe like twenty seconds. And then she asks you like of perhaps a particularly soft triggering question, how are you feeling, what memories of being brought up. And then you answer and then you do that a number of times, so a few different stages. And then eventually it's supposed to file that triggering memory or that traumatic event into an area of your brain that's more fuzzy. And so doing this type of processing, yeah, it's supposed to make that memory less clear so that if it was to pop up in your brain, it would be not as triggering. Being scientists, Sometimes you're a bit skeptical of things that sound a bit weird. So I was a bit skeptical. But I actually did feel that a particular memory that I had with this EMDR therapy over time, that memory just got a little more grey, a little more fuzzy. And yes, for me that it actually helped a lot.
Emily:
Yeah, and I hadn't actually heard of that type of therapy before. So it's really interesting to let you know there are so many different types of therapy and other support systems as well. And it's a very personal experience, too. So I guess it's worth saying that what works for one person may not necessarily work for another, which is part of the reason why this can be a reasonable amount of work, because it's a bit of trial and error of of what's going to work for you. I think it's also probably important to say just now that it's important to try some of these techniques with a trained professional again. So just because we've just talked about a certain type of therapy and Jess sort of described what that process is like, it's definitely most appropriate to trial any of those things with someone that is trained, particularly because when trauma is brought up again, there is this possibility of re traumatization, which is also part of the reason why I will never ask someone to talk about something that they're not comfortable talking about. And I sort of like to make sure that my guests have also received the support that they've needed to get to a relative position of wellness. So I guess that's just a little bit of a disclaimer there, you know, to make sure that that we're not encouraging anyone to sort of do this on their own. So we're kind of coming towards the end of this episode about some of the support systems that just had in place. But just I you know, are there any other particular adjustments or coping strategies that you found to be particularly helpful for you?
Jess:
Yes. So my therapist would always tell me to do something that if whenever I felt feelings of like extreme depression or anxiety, to do some type of self care and to do it really, really mindfully, she said to me, is there something that you like to do that you feel you can do mindfully and that you feel like when you do it, you're really taking care of yourself? And for me, that was painting my nails and it might sound so trivial, but the act of sitting there concentrating on like not slipping up with the brush, coming in to see her every week with a new nail colour and to take the time out to just make my nails look a bit pretty. That really helped. And to do something mindfully. I had, I like I had one job and that was to concentrate on painting my nails really nicely rather than thinking and going down in this spiral of, you know, of all these negative feelings and emotions. The other big thing that has really helped me cope is just doing things that I love and making sure that I that I make the time for myself to do things that I love. So apart from when I had no choice but to run long experiments, I would always try to make sure I leave the lab at a relatively normal time, whether it be like five o'clock or five thirty, so that I still had time when I got home to be a part of an extra curricular activity that I love, such as drama or theatre, and that I was able to...I know this is quite privileged and not every researcher can do this, but on the weekends, if I could not work so that I had the weekends to really, again, do things that I love and take the time for myself, that's yet that's really helped me through getting into theatre, getting into drama. That really helps me with my confidence as well. When I was trying to when I was trying to work through my PTSD and my anxiety. And yeah, I think making time for things that make you feel like you are, you know, again, is really helpful. And that's one of the biggest symptoms of depression, is when you stop doing those things that you usually enjoy or that are usually you. An exercise lifting some weights has been really good for my brain. Osher Ginsburg says that too, in his book. Again!
Emily:
Double Plug!
Jess:
Double plug for my boy Osher.
Emily:
I should ask for some compensation for that.
Jess:
But yeah, again, like when I was going through my darkest times, having a reason to get out of bed was just to get to the gym and to lift some weights to have a non-career goal or something that I was trying to achieve that wasn't anything to do with my career. So, you know, progressing with how much I could lift or how much I could squat.
Emily:
And I think I mean, we could we could talk for another couple of days!
Jess:
Could literally talk forever
Emily:
About all the possible things that that you can try to help support yourself. But hopefully, you know, some of what Jess has mentioned in terms of her support systems is is helpful for you guys listening.
Jess:
Oh, can I just say, um, you just popped into my head, in the words of Elwood's from Legally Blonde, exercise creates endorphins. Endorphins make you happy.
Emily:
Are you going to do the bend and snap for us? So I think I mean, by the time this episode air, you'll probably be settled into your new job in Canberra. So I really do wish you all the best with that. But I just yeah. I just want to thank you honestly, for being an open book today. We touched on, you know, some really difficult issues and it takes a lot of vulnerability and a lot of courage to, you know, to talk about those things. So I really appreciate it. And I honestly believe that our listeners will really appreciate it, too. So if anyone would like to get in touch with you or learn a little bit more about some of your experiences, where can they find you?
Jess:
So I don't have a Twitter, but I guess, I guess professionally, I've got a LinkedIn. Jessica Marshall. Also, if you want to follow me on Instagram, underscore, @_JessMarshall_ and also my kids science Party Instagram page is @my mini scientist.
Emily:
Awesome. So that pretty much wraps up today's episode of Voices of Academia. Again, thank you for joining me. I can't really say thank you enough. On the next episode, we'll meet a brave new voice and hear a different mental health story. I'm Emily King and I'll see you next time.
Emily:
Before you go, we have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.checkpointorg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.voicesofacademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely voices of academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @eking_sci, but I'm part of the larger voices of academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account at academic voices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our Web site www.voicesofacademia.com to sign up if you have a mental health awareness story to share. We absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, ex-academic or any other type of researcher. Follow @academicvoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website www.voicesofacademia.com for details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.
Automatically convert your mp3 files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.
Sonix has many features that you'd love including world-class support, collaboration tools, automated subtitles, powerful integrations and APIs, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.