Ep6_Loss during a PhD_Jess Marshall.mp3
Ep6_Loss during a PhD_Jess Marshall.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep6_Loss during a PhD_Jess Marshall.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey there. A quick warning before we start today's episode touches on divorce, sexual assault and suicidal ideation. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support if you need it. There's also a little bit of swearing. Today's guest just opens up about the difficulties of finding work life balance during a PhD, her difficult experiences with family, health and sexual assault during her degree. The impact these experiences have had on her life why she believes she doesn't belong in academia. And how this is led to her future career goals. Despite the heavy content, Jess displays a huge amount of strength and makes few jokes along the way. Jess has recently submitted her PhD thesis in Melbourne, Australia. Her research characterized a novel Alzheimer's mouse model and investigated the therapeutic potential of targeting heat shock protein 72. This was a bit of a longer recording because Jess and I are close and support each other, so it's a safe environment for us to cover some of these topics in reasonable depth. I've edited it down, but can hopefully release more of this conversation at a later stage as a bonus episode. The topic of suicide did catch me by surprise, but we both agreed that it's important not to avoid it.
Jess:
I think some people use their job as this huge identifier of who they are. And when you put so much identification on your career and all of a sudden you can no longer do your career. Well, now I've lost who I am as well. And yes, spending three months in my bedroom and trying just not to... I mean, having suicidal ideations every day for that long, you never, ever think that you'll get through the other side of it. And that was probably the most scary thing.
Emily:
Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. The podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. Find somewhere cozy. Let's talk about all the things you thought you had to hide.
Emily:
So I thought we would start with a little bit of history about you. So obviously something drew you into research. So I'd really like to go back sort of through your childhood a little bit and through your schooling and undergrad. Just talk us through a little bit what led you into research?
Jess:
So I ask myself this question a lot actually, and I'm sure a lot of people that are perhaps struggling during their PhD ask themselves, why am I doing this or why am I here? And, you know, there's always the answer of I wanted to make an impact and I wanted to be the best. And I love research and I love discovering things. But for myself, if I was to dig a bit deeper into why I pursued science in a way I pursued this particular career, I think it is a mixture of being quite lonely as a child. And I didn't particularly have a lot of friends in primary school. And I was, I was really lonely child in my household environment as well. And I guess I really threw myself into my studies and into always doing homework and always doing extra studies because there was nothing much else to do. And and when I saw myself excelling and doing really well in maths and in science and with school in general, I guess it gave me that sense of pride that, well, it doesn't matter if I don't have many friends or it doesn't matter if I'm, if I'm lonely at home because I've got something that I'm really good at. And I guess it just led me to continue on to wanting to be the best at something and wanting to be better, and I guess what's better than a PhD? Theres nothing high. There's no level of education higher than a PhD and, I guess in an unhealthy way, that led me to just wanting to pursue, to be the best at something, regardless of how I got there or how beneficial it probably was to my life or to my mental health as well.
Jess:
Yeah, I have personal ties to my particular area of research. My mom's mom passed away with Alzheimer's disease. So when that opportunity came along, it was something that I really wanted to pursue as well. Yeah, but I think at the end of the day, it was really just about wanting to perhaps gain respect from others that I didn't think that I could do without getting a PhD. Yeah, really. I guess if I think about it deeply, really unhealthy things.
Emily:
Yeah, and I can I can tell you, you've been to therapy, thank you for sharing, I really wasn't expecting that level of depth from that question, but I think it shows a lot of insight. And I can totally relate that striving for status and striving for respect. So as much as there are some personal ties for you for being drawn to research, there are also some underlying things there as well. So thank you for sharing. So how do you personally feel with your experience in terms of trying to to manage your PhD and work life balance? What are some of the challenges that you feel you face?
Jess:
Honestly, if I can be crass, it's been pretty s**t. I think it is absolutely ridiculous for supervisors and for the whole system to expect a Ph.D. student to live off twenty seven thousand dollars a year. I'm pretty sure minimum wage is something like thirty six thousand legally and PhD students who are expected to work full time and often expected to work more than full time hours. Living off such a small amount of money can be so stressful. The other factor that is quite frustrating as a PhD student is the clause in our contract that we are technically not allowed to work a certain amount of hours as well for extra pay. So a lot of PhD students will work as a teaching academic, usually at a university, to teach undergrad students lab skills. And in our contract for our scholarships, it says that we aren't allowed to work a particular amount of hours. I think it's more than 20 hours per week because we need to focus on our PhD. And again, it's just so difficult because how can you expect us to not work extra hours and to not try to earn money, to pay rent and to buy groceries? And we're trying to do high level work, but at the back of our mind, you know, struggling to pay rent and to eat every day.
Jess:
So I think that's definitely a huge stress for a lot of people, myself in particular. I guess I've been a bit lucky my first few years of my PhD. I was still sort of living at home. And then I moved into my mum's investment property, so I was paying reduced rent. The last year and a half I've been out of home living with my partner, paying a normal amount of rent. But again, if I didn't have a partner, I don't know how I would financially be able to support myself. I started my own business last year, which has had to stop because of coronavirus. I've always worked multiple jobs. That's even through high school and through my undergrad. In the first few years of my PhD, I was working obviously the full time hours of the PhD and Saturday and Sunday at different pharmacies. And then every second week I was working as a teaching academic, again, trying to make extra money because, I mean, it's just honestly so ridiculous.
Emily:
And yeah, definitely all of that trying to manage all of that is so challenging. So we're going to shift gears now and start to talk a little bit more in-depth about mental health. So, as I've said before, Jess, please only share what you feel comfortable sharing with our listeners. I'm not a trained psychologist. I'm a researcher. So I have an evidence based approach. And I also have personal experience with mental illness and a few years of attending therapy under my belt as well. So I feel like that, that helps me in in having these conversations. But I'm also aware that I don't have the qualifications to act as a therapist. So I really try to make sure with everyone that they only talk about what they're comfortable talking about. So I think Jess, maybe could you describe for us when you started to experience some impacts on your mental health in academia?
Jess:
Yeah, I think if we can backtrack a little bit, I think for a lot of people, if they're experiencing mental health problems or situations in the academic career, perhaps there have been signs or symptoms of it earlier in your life that maybe you haven't picked up before. So definitely for myself, my biggest, I guess, trauma or period of poor mental health has occurred during my PhD. But, you know, looking back into my childhood and going through high school and uni, definitely there were so many signs that popped up that things weren't necessarily healthy or OK and that I had sort of gone to therapy for, you know, situations like my. Separating, but I guess not necessarily properly looked into other aspects of my mental health, so I guess in my first year of my PhD, as I mentioned, my parents had separated when I was in grade five and didn't like, we sort of lived in the same house until I was in about nine or 10. So that's a solid maybe five or six years of quiet developmental years as well, living in the same house. And as I mentioned at the start, that's where a lot of my loneliness came from. So I had one brother who had joined the army at the time. So he was away serving. And my mom and my dad went through the type of divorce where there was no fighting or communication. It was just silence. And I guess I lived six years in silence at home. And as I mentioned, I didn't have a lot of friends in high school, in primary school. So I think a lot of issues have stemmed from that, particularly going through therapy in the last few years. Definitely that's been a big thing that I've had to chat about.
Jess:
And so I never really I guess, I never really understood why my parents got divorced. I had some assumptions that perhaps it was my mom's fault because of things that my dad had tried to feed me. And during the first year of my PhD, a lot of family secrets came out regarding my dad and I guess my whole foundation of who I was as a person and who I didn't, who I identified myself with and with my family just completely crumbled and disappeared just in a split second. And that was so difficult. And I remember getting up out of my chair in my office and walking around blindly in the lab, just feeling like everyone's eyes were on me and feeling this shame because I was associated with the type of men that he was. And I just had this cloud over me. It's so hard to even describe. Essentially, when I went to therapy regarding that situation, it was just a lot of validating my feelings because I was so confused and so angry and I had so many questions about my childhood and why particular things had happened between my parents and why particular secrets were being kept within the family and a lot of anger. And that was really difficult to process while also trying to run experiments all day and trying to write lit reviews and trying to show up to work every day with a smile on my face. And yeah, I didn't take time off work or anything for that particular scenario. I probably should have. I definitely was going down a really, really dark path in the weeks prior to, I guess, learning some information about my dad and yet really, really difficult.
Jess:
And then, my second or third year of my PhD, I... it hasn't been, it hasn't been an easy path, but I had some more trauma. I was sexually assaulted by someone who I thought was a friend, and that was it for me. Like I'd gone through so much s**t already. I had recently broken up with a really long term partner. I had lost my best friend because of that. Just differences in, I guess in how I was coping. Yeah. And again, going to therapy, my therapist said to me, like, you've gone through a lot of loss in the last few years of your life. You've essentially lost your dad because I cut off that relationship straight away. I essentially lost my brother because my brother took my dad's side in this situation. I lost my partner. I lost my best friend and I didn't really know who I was anymore. And then this assault happened and it was just everything just sort of like blew up in my face. And as with a lot of assaults, unfortunately, it's always most likely going to be your word against their word. And I lost a few friends because of that situation as well, which is just devastating because here you are going through this trauma and you just have people tell you that they don't believe you. And that was when I just I sent a text to my supervisor. I think it was like a week after because it took some time to even process that it was an assault because I guess I didn't really believe it myself. And I just said to him, something bad has happened and I can't come into work anymore. And, yeah, that was the start of that journey.
Emily:
And it's just like devastating experiences. And I just I'm looking at you through the zoom screen and I just I want to give you such a big hug, because for anyone experiencing one of those things, and not while doing a PhD, but experiencing just one of those things just, you know, is so difficult. And so to experience a series of quite devastating events at the same time as trying to achieve a PhD qualification, it's it's hugely challenging and particularly the experience that you mentioned, you know, quite a life altering experience where your identity was sort of questioned and and flipped upside down. How does anyone come to terms with something like that when when they're also trying to hold it all together? So, again, thank you for sharing, because I think this is extremely helpful for anyone that is experiencing life challenges at the same time as doing, as being in academia, whether it's undergrad or all the levels of academia. What impact do you think this sort of had on your life, I guess, outside of academia, did this sort of impact you more widely? I mean, that's that's a naive question, because I know the answer is going to be yes, I guess more. How did this impact you going through these experiences, trying to hold it together in academia? What did that sort of look like for you?
Jess:
Ah god. Erm, a lot of crying and lots of, again, I guess, just feeling lonely. The particular type of research that I do is particularly isolating. So I don't know whether it was helpful or a hindrance at the time because in a way, I didn't feel judged for coming into work. I'll just give some background. I do a lot of behavioral experiments with mice, and that requires just being in a dark room all day, every day, running sort of cognitive tests. And I don't see anyone I don't really talk to anyone. So on the positive side of that, I didn't feel judged for coming into work looking physically disheveled because I was mentally disheveled. I could, I could cry in the room by myself and no one would know when, I wouldn't feel, I wouldn't feel guilty or judged. I wouldn't feel embarrassed because I knew that no one would would see me for that particular amount of time. So I guess in a way that was good. But obviously it just exacerbated the feelings of loneliness and isolation and feeling like I'm in the classic teenager saying, you know, no one understands me. I guess I really switched back to how I was in my younger years by just trying to throw myself into my studies and trying to block out all of the other noise. I feel like I socially isolated myself for a prolonged period of time during that time. I don't know whether it was the best thing for me, but I think when you're going through something quite traumatic, you have a lot of feelings of embarrassment and of guilt.
Jess:
So perhaps not seeing anyone maybe was good for me at the time because I didn't have to feel guilty or I didn't have to feel embarrassed. But I know that I definitely should have reached out to social networks a lot more, I ended up taking three months off my PhD after the assault because again, coming back to the physical side of mental health, I physically could not get out of bed. I physically could not think, I could not concentrate. It was just this devastating feeling of never, ever going to be able to get back to what I was or who I was. And that just continued that cycle of disastrous thinking. And I came in to see my supervisor and and told him what had happened. And in a way, like I had mentioned before in my head, I feel like different types of trauma need to be right. And I felt like I needed to have a particular adequate reason as to why I was going to take time off work. And even though I was sexually assaulted, I still felt in my head that on the scale of rankings of things that are adequate, it still wasn't good enough. And feeling like that just felt so awful because I knew that I could no longer continue with my PhD. And so I already felt like I wasn't good enough because I couldn't continue working. But then I felt like the reason behind that wasn't good enough and it was just this cycle of not being good enough for so many reasons and. Yeah, it was just this bloody awful feeling, and I was starting a new relationship around that time as well.
Jess:
Tried to push him away, pushed so many friends away, those classic, classic scenarios where, you know, you're pushing away the person that you actually need the most. Physically put on a lot of weight as well, which is another physical symptom of mental health. Sometimes, God, and I just remember spiraling and thinking to myself, how am I ever going to get back? And I was frustrated because as I have mentioned a few times now, I have always striven, I guess, I would never, ever say that I am the best at anything, but I'm always trying to do something really well, or at least put on this facade that I'm someone that's trying to be the best. And I wasn't. I wasn't the best at anything. I was the best at being the worst because I couldn't do my PhD anymore. I was, that was like, all I had left in my life, I guess, was being the scientist. And now that was gone, I think some people use their job as this huge identifier of who they are. And when you put so much identification on your career and all of a sudden you can no longer do your career. Well, now I've lost who I am as well. And yes, spending three months like in my bedroom and trying just not to, I mean, having suicidal ideations every day for that long, like you never ever think that you'll get through the other side of it. And that was probably the most scary thing.
Emily:
I erm, I was about to ask you if you could explain why it was so important for you to go back, but you just absolutely hit the nail on the head like I have that exact same experience to it can it can be such a big part of your identity. So I'm really glad that you touched on that.
Jess:
I think sometimes for me it's this I think, as I mentioned, like it's this facade as well. Like, you don't want to come across as this person who's struggling and you want to prove to your supervisors and to other people that you're fine. And Emily and I have spoken about this before, literally my second or third day back after taking time off. There was a an oral presentation competition at our institute. And I decided to do it. And it was I just had it in my head that I am better and I can do this and I will do this. And it was just this horrific situation where, where I, it literally took all of my courage and every power, every ounce of power in me to get up there and stand in front of people and talk. And as soon as I finished, I ran to my car and cried and cried and cried for at least an hour and, heres the other thing I remember wanting to call Lifeline at that point, but then thinking to myself, you're not even in a bad situation like this is not a good enough reason to call Lifeline. And it's just, you have all these feelings and I kept getting angry. Why aren't I better yet? I said to myself, it's been three months. Why aren't I better? Why aren't you better? And I put so much pressure on just, being fixed, and I don't think, I don't think you can just be fixed in three months, you know, like as I said, I was trying not to end my life every day for three months and then bang, all of a sudden I expected myself to just be fine. It was like...
Emily:
I want to jump in here because I think we're getting into some, some territory that, you know, is really really tricky. And I want to make sure that you're OK. So. I mean, is this still something that you think about, are you still having any suicidal ideation?
Jess:
Oh no, no. I mean, like you think about if I was to die today or tomorrow, what legacy would I leave? But I don't think about ending my life.
Emily:
Ok, so I think it's it's a tricky one to talk about, too. I think, I think we need to talk about this because it's come up and, it's dangerous territory when we need validation that what we're feeling is bad enough to get support and I can relate. I almost took myself to hospital a few times, but I didn't think it was bad enough. I've said to my therapist numerous times, I was going to call you, but, you know, I didn't think it was bad enough. Like I wasn't, I didn't want to call my dad because I didn't want to worry him. And yeah, I think in academia, because we are often high achievers and we do often have really high expectations of ourselves. Quite often unrealistic expectations, I'd say, to place those expectations on ourselves in terms of our feelings now emotions and our mental capacity can take us into some really dangerous territory. I think, so. I think it's important if that's ever an experience that you have, to make that phone call. Yeah, and I say this as well, because I I've had similar experiences. I've definitely had suicidal ideation. And I actually had one point where it was almost like my body was in control, like my mind was kind of really trying hard to control my body and make it do something that I didn't want it to do, in terms of acting on self harm.
Emily:
And I didn't do it. But I just remember being just so shocked that my brain could be that powerful and almost make me, you know, start to take steps to do something that, that I knew I didn't actually want to do. I always wanted to live as much as it was really, really challenging. And sometimes it felt, almost easier to die, than to go through what I was going through, to have your brain be that powerful. So a friend of mine, she's a social worker, and I mentioned this to her and obviously she was very concerned and she gave me all the all the numbers and made sure that I put them into my phone for if I was ever experiencing that. And she strongly encouraged me to make those phone calls because people at those helplines are qualified to talk to you about these kind of things. And yeah, if there's anyone listening that's going through a really, really tough time, there are, there are help lines that are available for you. And, you know, we don't talk about suicide in our society as much as we possibly should. A lot of people that are qualified indicate that having that conversation is not going to put the idea in someone's head. People have those ideas, and I think it's more dangerous to avoid talking about it when it comes up than to actually put it out there in the open and be like, how how are you feeling? You know, what is this making you want to, how is this making you want to behave? You know, should we maybe call someone to talk about this? And so I'm sorry, Jess told me this story before about the presentation and about going to the car. And at the time, I had no idea. At the time I thought it was crazy that you were doing this presentation. And I told you that I just, I could couldn't believe that you would put yourself through that. But I at the same time can understand wanting to do that because, yeah, as you said, you wanted to be OK and you wanted to kind of move on if you could. But it's so devastating to me that you had to put on that mask, or felt that you had to put on that mask, felt you had to deal with all of that on your own and you were devastated in your car and having those thoughts and, and no one knew. So I'm so happy that you have sought support and, you know, you've indicated that you you're in a much better place now, which is really great to hear
Jess:
So much better and so much more gentle on myself, which is, yeah, without, you know, like putting props to myself, but like, yeah. In a much better place and really treating my mind much better than I was.
Emily:
I think you should prop yourself up! So one final question for this part. You mentioned in your information prior to the, to the episode that you don't feel as someone that's experienced anxiety disorder, depression, imposter syndrome, exacerbations of a lot of that within the academic environment. You don't feel like academia is the best environment for someone like that. And I wonder if you could talk me through why you feel that way. Because I think it's I think it's common. I think it's a common feeling. But I'd be really interested to hear sort of your your thoughts behind that.
Jess:
So I think for myself, having, or living with a lot of anxiety, I have a lot of anxiety over lots of different things. And, you know, one of them, just one of them is about stability and career stability. And perhaps this is not as much in the scope of this podcast, but just the career instability of academia gives me so much anxiety. And I know for myself to be able to manage my anxiety, I need to remove myself from that situation. And so I've I've worked really hard in the last year to get myself a job that is going after my PhD, that is going to be more stable, an ongoing job where I don't have to worry about grants and living year to year or every two years having to reapply for my job. And that's just my own personal experience, because I want to try to remove as as little instability, as much instability as I can to lessen the effects of my anxiety in terms of imposter syndrome. This has come up a lot in therapy and something that I learned in therapy when, when I went to a particular really, really good therapist, actually, who unfortunately has just had a baby. So I haven't been able to see her anymore. How dare she have a child! But we delved, we spoke so much about about this career and why I was feeling these feelings and why these feelings were such an issue for me. And we backtracked and backtracked. And she, she has the type of philosophy that most of the things that you believe you as an adult has come from some type of childhood, either trauma or interaction or experience. And what we dug up was that, unfortunately for myself, because of particular childhood experiences, my core belief to my soul is that I'm unlovable, which is really, really sad to hear, and it was really sad to admit that and I remember leaving that therapy session and walking to my car and being like, f**k, like, that's really bad. Like to my core, I don't believe that I'm able to be loved. And for me, that's why the issues of, or the feelings of imposter syndrome perhaps has, perhaps has been exacerbated by the culture of academia, because every day I'm surrounding myself with people who are the best of the best. And realistically, you have to be the best of some of the best of the best to get a PhD and and to be a medical research scientist. And I always feel like I'm not good enough and I always feel like I'm unlovable and, and that not just unlovable personally, but unlovable with my work. And I, I don't want to live the rest of my life like that. And I've realized that for my own mental health, and for my own sanity, I don't want to be in this environment, that is, so competitive and so cutthroat because it's only going to make myself feel shit about myself and I don't want to live my life like that.
Jess:
And, you know, for some people, that competitiveness is what drives them and that's completely fine and completely normal. But for myself and the experiences that I've gone through, I have really realized in the last few years that I can't do that to myself anymore. And I, I don't want to work a career where no matter how much hard work you put in and the effort that you put in, sometimes the the effort isn't, it's not equivalent to to the output, and that's just the nature of academia and of research. And I know that that's just normal. And you're always going to get experiments that don't work or research that doesn't work. And, you know, you have to have a tough skin sometimes in research. But, yeah, for myself, I know that I'm just perhaps just not cut out to be that type of person anymore. And that's OK. And I think it's been important for me to recognize that and to know that perhaps I need to be in a career that, where that output more matches the input.
Emily:
Yeah, and thanks for sharing. I think that's great to have developed that level of awareness for yourself and to make those personal decisions for yourself, really valuing what you need at this particular point in your life. So, yeah, I'm, I'm really excited for you, for your, for your next step, moving into a new job in policy.
Emily:
And Jess has recently started that job. If you'd like to get in contact with her, she's available through her science party business at Miami New Scientist on Instagram and Facebook and also at Jessica Marshall on LinkedIn. That brings us to the end of today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to the end. Make sure to check out the next episode where Jess will talk us through some of the support resources she's discovered, including rapid eye therapy and some books by Osher Ginsburg and Sarah Wilson.
Before you go, we have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.checkpointorg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.voicesofacademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by a lovely voices of academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci, for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account at academic voices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.voicesofacademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health awareness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, x academic or any other type of researcher. Follow @AcademicVoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website. www.voicesofacademia.com for details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
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