Ep16_Exiting a PhD with Masters_Henry Powell-Davies.mp3
Ep16_Exiting a PhD with Masters_Henry Powell-Davies.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep16_Exiting a PhD with Masters_Henry Powell-Davies.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey there. These are frank discussions about mental health and illness. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support, if you need it. Today, we travel to Scotland in the UK to meet Henry Powell Davies, a chemist whose research focused on developing 3D printed reaction where to make chemical synthesis more automated and accessible. Henry recently defended his master's in chemistry at the University of Glasgow and has started a new role as a graduate data analyst. During our discussion, Henry opens up about how the isolation he experienced as a PhD student during the COVID 19 pandemic and associated lockdowns led him to question and ultimately redirect his career path.
Henry:
And then obviously, March 2020 happened, and then April happened and we were in lockdown, and from that point, you know, we were at home. Lockdown was so difficult because I honestly didn't know what to do myself. I felt very isolated, you know, and although we could go into the lab, you know, we're on a shift system, it became very quickly apparent that something wasn't right. And you know, at first I thought, Oh, it's the pandemic, then I realise actually something else is up. I don't want to go as far to say I was depressed, but I just think it was very, you know, it was probably the lowest point I'd had. And it wasn't easy because I felt like I didn't have people to speak to, not because I couldn't speak to people. I didn't want to admit just how low I was feeling because again, I thought that was a sign of weakness. You know, it's only now that I look back and realised I talked about it at the right time. So, you know, it was only January of this year that I actually said to my supervisor, That's it.
Emily:
If you're not already aware, it's World Mental Health Day in a few days on October 10th, although I believe mental health should be acknowledged all year round, this is a day designed to raise awareness and support for mental health. I'd love to take this opportunity to acknowledge another podcast that I think is doing great work in this space in the realm of academia. Dear Grad Student podcast hosted by Elana Gloger, a late stage PhD student in psychology, helps students navigate grad school issues, which often involves touching on mental health. There are fantastic episodes spanning the intersection between mental health and the LGBTQIA plus community, religious minorities and other diverse identities. Episodes are released weekly. Go check them out wherever you're listening now. Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. It's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it. Henry, welcome to the podcast.
Henry:
Thanks for having me.
Emily:
No problem. So I guess we we met because I know you were chatting with Zoe, one of the Voices of Academia co-founders, about having recently made this difficult decision to leave your PhD with a master's. And I know you've just submitted your thesis in June, so I do want to say congratulations for that.
Henry:
Thank you. That's yeah, it's really exciting. I got my vyver at the start of August, so you know, I can't wait for that. And yeah, kind of close that chapter and move on to the next next exciting kind of venture.
Emily:
Yeah. Best of luck for you, Avivah as well. Thank you. This is it's something that resonates with me as well, because as I mentioned to you, I was quite strongly considering leaving my PhD with a master's last year with all of the research delays that were caused by extensive lockdowns in COVID. And so I personally can understand, at least from from my standpoint, that there's a lot tied up in that decision that wouldn't necessarily be immediately obvious. And I think there are a lot of people that are doing a Ph.D. or that have finished a Ph.D. that or decided to leave a PhD that have been through this process. And so I was interested to know, you know, why would you like to share this with us today?
Henry:
I think for me, it's important that other people know that it's OK to admit when something you are doing, you know, PhD or a job or anything in life doesn't feel right. And I think it's almost important that you do listen to kind of your gut and do what feels right for you. And for me at that point, you know, it was January of this year that I kind of decided and it's been a few months going through the motions that it just wasn't the right thing. You know, it wasn't for me, particular people, but it was just kind of the feeling of lack of fulfillment and motivation from what I was doing and that I could be happier doing something else. And while that was scary, I think it was the right thing to do because someone reminded me that life's so short that you can't just stay on a path that's not making you happy because you'll look back and regret having not changed at that point. So, you know, I think it's important that people kind of realize that and look within themselves sometimes kind of introspect and kind of see what they could do better to make them kind of happier in themselves. So I think that's kind of why I want to share it. And just kind of if I can help one person, I say, is kind of would be, you know, my my goal is to just help just that one person that might be feeling, you know, the same as I was, you know, that would feel like a job. Well done.
Emily:
Yeah, definitely. And hopefully we can sort of help break the stigma a little bit around, you know, quitting a Ph.D..
Henry:
I think actually quitting and I talked to a lot of people about this is kind of the wrong turn, not because it somehow doesn't describe what it is because it totally does. I think almost you want to change that to saying changing like changing your path or something. So you know, or even just leaving because, you know, quitting has all this negative connotation around it. And for a lot of people, when you say you quit something again, be it a job or something that they're always like, Oh, that's bad, you know, why are you doing that? But actually, why you're doing it is to make yourself happier. So actually, it's a positive change. And actually, it's just realizing that. And for me, that was the I think the most difficult part was actually I was feeling like I was somehow a failure and doing something bad by, you know, quitting. But actually, you know, you realize now in hindsight, you're a lot happier and almost why didn't you do it sooner? You look back and it's like, Well, why did I ever really set out to do a Ph.D.? You know, it wasn't because I particularly wanted to do it. It was because it was almost the natural transition. I think it's the same for a lot of, you know, young undergraduate students who finish their degree and are like, Oh, I'm not sure what to do yet. I don't have a job, but here's a Ph.D. that's paying, you know, decent money. Let's let's go and do that for four years, and you almost don't think that far ahead. You're missing, you know, six months down the line.
Henry:
You never think two years down the line. Are you actually going to still be enjoying it? I think for me, yeah, that naivete just was there. And, you know, now I've matured and kind of realized, Look, this isn't what I want to do. My path is clearly diverging a bit. But, you know, so be it. And I always believe in, you know, things happen for a reason. I think, you know, it's this is totally one of those things. And, you know, I'm just excited for what's next. But I think it's, yeah, not being afraid to just do what you think feels right for you, for nobody else but for you. And that's something that I have struggled with for the longest time will probably get into later is that I've always felt I had to please other people and almost take care of other people far more than I take care of myself and self. Something I'm struggling with and dealing with at the moment, but it's something I can hopefully get better at as time goes on. And I think, you know, having the focus of a PhD was kind of draining in that way that I didn't have that time to take care of myself, and I was so worried about what other people would think. You know, it just didn't. Yeah, it just wasn't good in many different ways. So I think, you know, it was the right thing for me, and I think you encourage other people to do the same if they have kind of similar feelings.
Emily:
Yeah, I definitely love to talk about some of your self-care strategies in the next episode. And I do agree I lack the language withdrawing from a PhD rather than quitting for similar reasons. I would probably challenge you on on the idea that it's reasonably well paid to do a Ph.D., but that's another story.
Henry:
Oh, I mean, I mean, yeah, no. Let's just say, let's just say it pays enough to live on, I think is
Emily:
Probably kind of almost maybe
Henry:
It varies
Emily:
From. But I do want to thank you
Henry:
Just from Lisa
Emily:
Accurate. I do want to thank you for coming forward with your story. Before we get into your story a little bit more, I'd love to get to know you a bit more sort of outside of academia as a person. And there's a couple of questions I tend to ask people at the start of an episode. So what's your favorite way to spend a day off?
Henry:
Why? Well, I've had many days off the last week or so, to be honest, after submitting my vibe. So usually after submitting your thesis? Yeah, I've not done too much well at the moment. Wimbledon's on for those of you in the UK, I'm sure a lot of us tennis fans are sure in Australia as well. They they have the tennis on. But yeah, I mean, in terms of
Emily:
Ash Barty,
Henry:
Oh, she did really well.
Emily:
Ash Barty, the Australian female tennis player, just made it to the finals, and she's the first Australian woman to make that
Henry:
In 41 years. It's really impressive. She's so shout out to Ash Barty if she's listening. I doubt it. But you know, if you if you are. Great. Great. Great game,
Emily:
That would be an achievement.
Henry:
Awesome. No. So it has my day off. Why? To be honest, it's certainly having a lion. So quite often I have a routine where I wake up at seven a.m. in the morning. So yeah, if I have a day off, I'll usually not set an alarm. I did that yesterday and it turns out, you know, I like to wake up at half seven anyway. So, you know, I was awake at seven in the morning.
Emily:
So damn body
Henry:
Clock. I know totally. I mean, it's good. Get up nice and early. But yeah, so I wake up, you know, a reasonable time on a day off usually do some exercise. So something I've got into more over the past year, obviously with the pandemic and being at home, not being able to go to the gym and then just kind of have a leisurely breakfast. I quite often like to make a coffee again. I got coffee machines or a lockdown. It's been great to go through the ritual of like grinding a coffee and then, you know, making the espresso, you know, pouring the milk, all that kind of stuff and then usually a nice breakfast. So if I'm in a rush, it'll be cereal. But if I'm kind of more leisurely with my time, which often or day off I am, then I'll make something a bit more substantial. So like eggs and bacon I had the other day and that was quite nice. Yeah. And what else I do to be honest, it sounds. It sounds really bad, I guess. But all all I would do is probably watch TV, you know, and that's actually what I've been doing in the past and a few days again, because Wimbledon's on in a big tennis fan. So I'm not the best tennis player, but I like watching it. So I've just kind of been watching TV recently invested in a PlayStation as well, had one as a kid and I was like, I, you know, just want to get back into gaming a bit. So I was, you know, played FIFA and, you know, those kind of games as well.
Henry:
And that's been really fun. Also just going on walks as well, like we have a lot of nice places parks in Glasgow's botanic gardens just down the road from me and another park as well, about five minutes walk away. So I like to go out and get some fresh air. I'll admit that during the lockdown and stuff, I wasn't obviously going out as much because you know what, you couldn't or you could have like one walk a day or whatever. But you know, the more things are relaxed, I tried to go out a bit more and I don't drive. So, you know, I kind of walk everywhere. So it's just nice to go on a wander and see what you know, what's out there, really? Yeah. Other than that, I just, you know, then just relax. You sometimes do some laundry. Yeah, I guess. I guess I have a thing where I always feel I have to be busy even I might even even on my days off. And I guess that comes from that thing of being in academia. I'm sure lots of the listeners can relate to always having to feel like you doing so. Even if you're not, say, tweeting about it or telling people about it. You know, if you have a partner, then you still feel it in yourself that you have to be doing something to, you know, quote unquote be productive on your day off, which is totally absurd. I mean, you know, you're on your day off and actually you can just do nothing. It's OK. I mean,
Emily:
I don't know. I feel that so strongly, and I'm trying to break that habit at the moment as well, but know that sounds delightful. Coffee and breakfast and walk ins and TV
Henry:
And baking, to be fair, something I've gotten to during lockdown, I guess a lot of people. Banana bread was a big thing the past year. I've. You know, I've really got into cookies as well, so I make like cookie dough and then like freeze the dough balls and you can cook them straight from frozen and it's really cool. My girlfriend loves those, so you
Emily:
Know, that sounds so good. So the next question is, what were you like as a kid? And I know, you know, as is common in psychology, we do tend to look back to sort of understand the present. So you've indicated prior to recording that you would like to touch on the impacts of your premature birth and your visual impairment as a result of that? And maybe we'll do that a bit later. But for now, just in terms of sort of your personality and your interests, what were you like as a kid?
Henry:
Well, it's it's a tough one. I mean, looking back, it's it's quite hard. I think sometimes it can be quite hard to remember exactly how you were. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't particularly sporty. I mean, I tried a lot of sports. I tried like football, tennis, rugby as well at secondary school, but never really just got into it. Running was quite a good thing. I did like, you know, charity runs and that kind of thing. I remember one for comic relief where you had to like, run around the sports track, and that was quite fun. We raised a fair bit of money for for charity, I think, near on 10 years ago now. But yeah, in terms of other stuff, I mean, I was always, always quite interested in lots of different things and I still am to this point, I would call myself a generalist kind of in terms of my interests, the very wide ranging, obviously. To be honest, I think it's quite hard to remember how I was as a kid because I don't know, like, you know, I was always someone that, you know, tried my hardest at school and, you know, always pushed myself to be better. And yeah, I was quite good at school. At least I was quite consumed with, you know, grades and that kind of thing. I'm sure a lot of people can relate if they have kind of those perfectionist tendencies as well. Absolutely. I think other than that, I think, yeah, I was always kind of I wasn't particularly an outgoing individual and I wouldn't say I am a certainly thing.
Henry:
I'm more introverted than than I think I'd maybe want to be funny. Now doing a podcast and all that kind of stuff. But you know, times change, I guess. Yeah. What I remember is just kind of always kind of being in school and stuff. It's quite hard to kind of look back and kind of remember the other times. I mean, of course, I remember family holidays and, you know, spending time with my pets and stuff when I was younger. I think until I was about two or three years old, we had like sheepdog called Charlie and as photos of me and him on the sofa. And it's this is before my brother and sister were born and it was, you know, it was quite nice, just chilling with him. Yeah. I like to look back at old photos because I do have a hard time sometimes remembering, you know, especially early childhood kind of teenage years is obviously, you know, it's it's in your memory a bit more, you know, 10 years or so ago. But it's to say having photos is really good. I did karate, actually as a kid, so that's something I did kind of do, which was sporty. And somehow I managed to get a first hand black belt in when I was at 11. I think so. Yeah, unfortunately, I've lost the black belt, so we've had several moves at home. How smooth. So I think it might be in the loft somewhere, but it was really cool. You had the black belt and they wrote your name in, I think, Chinese in Mandarin, Chinese, on the belt, in like gold, like gold stitching.
Henry:
And it was pretty cool. Yeah. And that was when I was 11. I remember because we had these things called cactus, which I don't know if anyone that does karate might know is essentially these what they called cardmember. But yeah, katter's of these routines, asset routines that basically you have to do a series of steps and you basically have to do them in the right order. Kind of, yeah. Do you have like nunchucks and staffs and that kind of stuff? And it's pretty, pretty long, but pretty, pretty good fun. And I enjoyed that. That was kind of my before I went to the gym. That was kind of what I did to kind of stay active and that kind of stuff. So and that would be like every every week kind of thing. I did that from when I was like seven to 11. I think so good four years. Yeah, and that was that was really enjoyable. I say I remember that fondly because I mean, that was really good and that was where I met some of my friends at. Then, you know, were friends at school, funnily enough, and it was just quite nice. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I was inquisitive as a kid. I think I was just very I kept myself to myself kind of thing. I think, Yeah, but I think that's something that I took forward. Now I find making friends difficult, and I maybe we'll talk about this later.
Henry:
But you know, I just it was never easy for me to just approach somebody and just say, you know, let's let's be friends or something. Yeah, I never kind of knew I never got had to do that. And yeah, I don't know. That's that's that's me, I suppose. And yeah, all of those traits, all of those experiences, I kind of molded into who I am today and kind of, yeah, why I'm so fixated or was so fixated on success and what it means to be successful. And I do think from an early age that perhaps my my understanding of what it means to be successful is very different from my parents, who to this day, you know, will say. We're proud of you. Whatever it is that you do, and I totally believe that. But, you know, within me, something's like, you're still not good enough. And that feeling of imposter syndrome is still there. You know, although I've now changed my mind and what I'm doing stepped out of the academic bubble, it's still there because, yeah, that never goes away. That's almost part of my identity. And I think to this point, academia has just been my identity. And that's why I say I can't particularly remember much of my childhood because it's almost like for the longest time, I've always been in school or in university. And, you know, it's kind of like, that's who I am. It sounds bad because I know that it's just who I am, but you know, it's that's how you feeling yourself, I guess, you know,
Emily:
That's so relatable. And one of the first things I was going to ask you when you mentioned kind of that you were quite academic as a child and kind of focused on that part of your life. I was going to ask, is that kind of what drew you to research? Because I think I was very much the same. I was focusing on achieving those results and kind of trying to do as well as I could possibly do. And, you know, university was never a question for me, partly because that is kind of the pathway that most of my family has taken, but also just for me, I just kind of felt like that was necessary for some reason, which is crazy because there are so many different ways to live a life. Yeah. Let's take a quick break. Do you think that is what drew you to research that kind of focus on on the academic or was there something external that kind of drew you?
Henry:
So I wouldn't say it was necessarily external because, you know, so my mum went to university, she did English literature in French. My dad didn't, though, so he, you know, did his own thing. I think it was in haulage and then finance, and now he's an estate agent, so he is going to be different from that perspective, having one parent at university and whatnot. But I think for me, it was never like, You have to go to university because I never really knew exactly what I wanted to do for a lot of people. And I can imagine, you know, I don't know for yourself, family, but for me, why I did chemistry or why I chose to do chemistry at uni was an inspirational teacher. I think it's cliché to say in a lot of people will say that is that you had a really inspiring teacher at school. And for me, it was. I had a teacher, John Barry, who was he was from South Africa. I think Cape Town. And he just for one, his accent was really cool. I think I think the South African accent just just really cool that like it. Yeah, he just kind of showed me what chemistry could be in terms of, like all the really cool experiments and also the theory. So I really like physical chemistry and I kind of learned at university that's what I enjoyed, kind of like the equations and the math side of it. And yeah, he kind of got me into chemistry and I chose to do it A-level.
Henry:
Then if I hadn't done chemistry, I do think back. If I hadn't done chemistry, I did maths, chemistry and physics at A-level. You tend to only do three subjects. I chose to do four. It did prove a bit more difficult in terms of keeping up the work on all four subjects. But yeah, if I hadn't done chemistry, I probably would have gone to translation. I think so, like German, and I did at one point, think about, Oh, could you be a translator for the UN? You know, because I know that's the thing. I know they're generally French, English, and I think, you know, German to an extent as well. I had considered that because apparently I had a knack for languages. I did Spanish as well at GCSE. So I mean, yeah, I never did French, actually. So, you know, I always want to try and do French if I can. But yeah, yeah, he kind of inspired me to do chemistry and I chose to do it down at uni. It was more because I felt like I wanted to help people. And that's something I'll say to this day is what I want to do. And whatever I go into now is I always want to feel like I'm helping people because again, we'll talk about this when we come to, you know, how I was born and everything. But a lot of people helped me, although I was a baby and I didn't really, you know, realize what was going on.
Henry:
I look back at the photos and I hear from a mum, dad, actually, that it was a traumatic time and obviously a lot of the doctors did help me. So almost I want to give back to them. And I think, you know, when I initially chose to do chemistry, I was like, Oh, I could go and cure cancer. And then I quickly realized, Oh, actually, that's a big thing. You know, that's it's not as easy as just saying one day I want to kill cancer. And that's it, because one is like, however many, you know, varieties of cancer out there. But also, you know, there's millions of people work on it every year. And especially what the pandemic shown is that, you know, you need so many scientists across the world just to make a single vaccine. And you know, I mean, that's been impressive scientific feat. But yeah, cancer, you know, it's no way near beaten, but you know, people are people are working on it, certainly. But it's, you know, it's a pipe dream, almost. But you know, for me, I quickly realized that's perhaps why I didn't want to do chemistry. But again, that thing of helping people was kind of the key key driver, I guess. And yeah, I just yeah, I just went to the chemistry and I really enjoyed it. Yes, the practical side of things was a bit more difficult. We'll talk about this probably in a bit. But you know, I really enjoyed the theory and just sitting in lectures and chatting to the lectures as well.
Henry:
Yeah, I don't know. I just just went with it, you know, you kind of just go with the flow. And I like, Well, you know, I didn't know any different as well. You know, I was just in the library till about 11pm most nights in my first year. And yeah, I wasn't really going out type like, yes, I went out in freshers week and stuff, who doesn't, you know? But like, yeah, I wasn't the typical uni student, I guess, you know, I was very much study, study, study, and that's me. Like, I was worried if I was on 69 percent and not getting that first. But you know, everyone else, everyone else around me was kind of enjoying themselves, and I was like, I look back now and I was like, I wish I hadn't, you know, stressed out so much and kind of just took in the moment. For me, it was I still have a problem being present, you know, just looking back to the past and thinking how I should have done stuff differently or look into the future and worrying what might be. But actually just realising now, I think that. You need to just stop and. Think about kind of where you are right now and how far you've come. Yeah, and that's that's something I'm dealing with, but it's, you know, something I struggled with at university and, you know, still am to a point now.
Emily:
So so we might look back now and sort of start right at the beginning. You have indicated to me that you were born prematurely at twenty five weeks and that you've been visually impaired since birth. So I did want to ask, I guess this is multiple questions, so forgive me. But how being visually impaired has impacted your life, both outside and within academia? And I guess in a physical sense, but also psychologically, because I imagine they're reasonably closely linked.
Henry:
Ok, so. It's a big, big question, I guess.
Emily:
Yeah, I like doing that.
Henry:
That's OK. So I mean, yeah, I mean externally, I guess. It has, again, I look back and I realize that actually when I was younger, it impacted me a lot more purely because I needed that help. So, you know, for example, it's a silly thing, but tying my shoelaces wasn't a lot harder for me. When I was younger. I think I didn't time my shoelaces, maybe till I was four or five. I don't know if that's normal or, you know, I have no idea, but I just remember having one of those little plastic blocks that you can kind of like learn how to tie your shoelaces. And yeah. Another thing that I don't know if it's even related to my visual impairment, but something I've realized I do. Not many people do is eat with your knife and fork the wrong way round. So I'm right-handed, so...
Emily:
I do that as well.
Henry:
That's good to know that I'm not the only person in the whole world. That's funny. So, yeah, that's something I do. It's just quite funny. What else? Yeah. In terms of external, I mean, yeah, when I was younger, I was I was bullied a lot in school, kind of in primary school and secondary school to a point because basically I have what's called a nystagmus, which is where the right kind of shakes a bit when I'm tired or have trouble focusing. And that means that I have what's called a I can't remember the exact word, but it's like a fixed point, basically a point in space where if you look kind of in that direction in that way, then kind of it doesn't shake as much. It basically means that I'll sometimes rotate my head to the to the right to basically have a better line of sight, if that makes sense. I'm not an optometrist, so I'm not 100 percent familiar on, funnily enough, my my partner. She is an optometrist, so she kind of knows all the other terminology and kind of taught me a bit. But yeah, essentially.
Emily:
But you've lived it.
Henry:
Exactly. I've lived it. So, yeah, so essentially, I do that and I often get kind of kids at school saying, Oh, look how funny Henry looks, you know, doing that and you know, it was. And to be fair thinking about, maybe that's why I can't remember much of school when I was younger because it was difficult, and I don't want to remember it. I imagine I imagine our brains are complex, you know, machine machines. But you can imagine that probably there's part of me that doesn't want to remember that. So that's probably why when you ask the question about, can you remember much of yourself as a child, it's kind of not remembering the bits that I don't want to, you know, because because that was difficult when I got to secondary school again, you know, initially it was there were difficulties around kind of bullying and things. It got better. Certainly, you know, as kids grow up, you know, we're up to year 10, 11, 12, you know, it became better and people matured. And you know, I found my friendship group again. I wasn't massively popular, but I had like, you know, a few friends that I called, you know, real friends and have kept in touch, you know, on Facebook or whatever with them. And yeah, I just kind of found my groove as it were again. I was always the academic person, always in the library or kind of working away.
Henry:
I'd never be the person playing football on the field, although, you know, it did. Sometimes I'm not very good at football, though. Yeah, so I mean, externally, it wasn't like people never viewed it as certainly in my family. People never viewed it as a bad thing. I think it's more that other people, you know, I think it's because people aren't sure and I'm not sure what to say. So some people's immediate reaction is, Oh, let's take the mick out of this person because they're different from me. And obviously, I think that's completely wrong. I think if someone has a disability, you know, we see it with, for example, wheelchair tennis, you know, they can play as good tennis as, you know, Ash Barty. But the fact that they're in a wheelchair doesn't stop them from doing that. It just means that they have extra things in place, you know, to support them. And that's what I've realized more at university. And now starting my new job is that actually people want to help you or you have to do is ask. And for me, I was so bad at asking for help when I needed it because I knew I needed it. And I knew, like in school, you know, I could have asked, Well, I did ask for extra time in exams, and that was something that was given to me.
Henry:
But, you know, at university I was I didn't want to ask for help because again, I'd coped so well with this to a point that externally, you know, to someone on the street, they'd have no idea, you know, that I have a visual impairment even if I'm not wearing glasses, because if I wear glasses, I'm just someone else that wears glasses. You know, they don't know the whole thing of, Oh, you were born at 25 weeks, you know, you had all that kind of stuff. For me, it was realizing that I've coped so well with it that people don't actually know. So it's almost there. You have to kind of prove it. So, you know, when I was starting my job, you have to kind of prove that you actually had to get a certificate that says, you know, I was registered it on this day and you know, so and I think that's just a testament to me to actually realize that actually, yes, it doesn't define you, but also it's still a part of you, you know? And then just to realize that and actually that people want to hear that you've dealt with it and actually coped well with it. Even if it has been difficult because, you know, it's important if there is someone in a similar position. Yeah, I mean, in terms of academia, again, you know, I don't particularly have much in the way of bullying at university again because I think age thing, people mature a lot and people just accept you for four, you essentially.
Henry:
But I did have things like practical support in university and labs and that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, other than that, I kind of just went around and, you know, did did my own thing? Yeah, I never I never want to ask for help, but I feel like, you know, if I need it, for example, for practical support, then that I will ask for it. And again, when I was in here in Glasgow as well. So I did my undergraduate degree in Cardiff. Cardiff University and then moved up here to Glasgow in October 2019 to pursue the PhD. And you know, I had support from fellow PhD students in the in the lab and then that was really helpful. Things like magnifies as well. I remember one thing that my supervisor suggested was that this big, I guess, can make up land that people might use of like a light and a magnifying glass and for like TLC spotting. Because I I had very shaky hands because I have to go down quite far to, like, spot the TLC plates. So I had I'd have this magnifier that would you basically look over it and it's kind of magnified so you can almost see your hands and kind of can spot it a bit easier, which you know, was really helpful.
Henry:
So I did appreciate all that support being in place. I mean, yeah, and the other part in terms of like psychologically again, I think I blocked out a lot of the difficult parts in, you know, in the younger years. And so when I look back at, I can't remember too much of all of that because just I just don't want to be, to be perfectly honest. You know, as frank as as frank as that is in terms of physically again, I can't drive. So, you know, for someone, obviously, I know this is audio, so you can't see me here on the video. But you know, I don't have particularly good peripheral vision. I have what's called kind of tunnel vision where, you know to the sides or see when you're in the car, you have to you can't be looking to your mirror, like turn your head. So you have to have good peripheral vision so that something that causes difficulties for driving. Another thing is that kind of a distance vision isn't the best. So where where you can see 18 meters, I can only see six meters. So that's kind of the difficulty in distance as well, which again, is hard for driving.
Henry:
Another thing which I've never kind of understood is actually that my optic nerve, so anyone that knows about people who are blind knows that the optic nerves are pale. So when the person is blind, they basically can't see because the optic nerves are completely pale. And basically, that means that the signals from the synapses from the brain can't be sent to those nerves. Essentially, they can't travel down the nerve because it's essentially dead. And apparently, you know, I don't know how pale they are, but apparently my my optic nerves are so pale that technically I shouldn't be able to see at all. And, you know, that was quite a revelation to me, and that that means that somehow my brain due to the lack of oxygen because, you know, when you're born premature, quite often you have to be put on a ventilator on an oxygen supply. Lots of little tubes and that kind of stuff. Sorry, if anyone listening that you know, basically, yeah, the lack of oxygen to the brain meant that, you know, it almost had to rewire itself again. I'm no neurologist, so please don't quote me on this. But essentially, yeah, I'm using another part of my brain to see again. I can't name which of the lobes it is or which area it is, but that's how I'm able to see. And to be fair, every day that's impressive to me because I have no idea, you know, I'm a scientist at heart, but I can't explain that, you know, as much as I'd want to.
Henry:
So I think, you know, that's just, yeah, I think that comes back to what I talked about. Kind of a reason for why I chose chemistry and wanted to help help people is because almost like I feel like I'm here for a reason. You know, it sounds really silly, really wishy washy. Kind of, yeah, voodoo stuff. I don't know. But yeah, there's a reason I'm here, and it's almost like, I have a point to prove. And this probably underlies everything of what I talked about previously about. You know, why I was so worried about grades and kind of prove myself is because I have a point to prove to myself to be like, You're worthy of being here. It sounds really bad, right? And I don't know. Like, but yeah. And again, my parents won't say any of that. They'd be like, Know, we're really proud of you. You've done so well. And like, yeah, I could do better. And you know, I've got to do better because, you know, it was so difficult, you know, when I was born that I just have to do. Really, really well, and what I'm not doing really, really well, that's so bad, you know?
Emily:
Let's take a quick break. So that does kind of lead into what you told me about, you know, being a perfectionist and constantly experiencing imposter syndrome and kind of feeling like you're not good enough in the academic sphere. So I do wonder, you know, was, is that what contributed to you struggling with your mental health during the first or the last eight months of your Ph.D.? Or could you talk us through what that has been like for you in a way that you feel comfortable? Sure.
Henry:
So say I came to Glasgow in 2019 in October, and I'd never been to Glasgow before, so it's a completely new city. I was like going to different places. It's not the first time I'd gone somewhere for research. I went to Canada in my third year to Quebec City on the Year Abroad program. To be honest, that was probably my first experience of isolation and kind of being quite lonely because in Canada, you know, I was on my own and it was in a French speaking city. So that was quite hard, you know? So when I came to Glasgow, I knew I'd be in a bigger group because the research group I'm in is, you know, 70 or so or was in 70 or so people from from near on 20 odd different countries. So that was really exciting to kind of be in that kind of culture bubble almost to, you know, chat to different people. Yeah. And I guess everyone kind of has that honeymoon period again, be it in a job or just any kind of new experience at PhD, whatever it might be of, Oh, this is really, really good fun. I'm really enjoying this of like six months. And I think that was me for like six months, obviously till about March time. And then everyone knows what came came next. You know, it kind of came out of nowhere. I don't want to name it for various reasons, but those six months were brilliant.
Henry:
I learned so much and met so many exciting people. I learnt how to present in different ways. So we have to do different things like one page summaries every other month, which is like a summary in a page of your work and then kind of updates, research updates, presentations every other month as well. So I kind of was more confident in speaking and that kind of stuff. So and I was doing kind of 3D printing, 3D printing these reactions reaction where modules. So it's kind of a term we've coined for basically these reactors that you can basically click together, much like Lego and kind of perform chemistry. And so I guess the idea is to democratize chemistry in the future and basically make it accessible for people, which I saw as a benefit because again, you know, want to help people. So if we can make these and then I don't know in the future, send a kit to Africa to make paracetamol in reaction where that could be really cool to help those people that can't access it. But yeah, so I kind of learned how to use 3D printers and all that kind of stuff. I was in the lab a bit doing lab cleanups and all that kind of stuff, all the kind of stuff you do as a PhD student in chemistry. Yeah, and those first six months were brilliant. I really enjoyed it. And then obviously, March 2020 happened.
Henry:
And, you know, for about four weeks, I don't know how it was in Australia, but in the UK, we kind of were very blasé about the whole thing and they kind of said, no masks, it's fine, you know, it just disappear. And obviously it didn't. And April happened and we were in lockdown. And yeah, from that point, you know, we were at home and that was difficult. I mean, the from April to December, probably we'll know, probably from April to August, because I mean, in August of last year, I met my partner and that was just when the restrictions kind of relaxed for a bit for a coffee. And that was that was really good. And I mean, I'd never looked back since I'm so thankful for for her if she's listening. She's amazing. But yeah, I mean, lockdown was so difficult because I honestly didn't know what to do myself. I felt very isolated. I think I've talked about it with people various times that it wasn't easy, you know? And although we could go into the lab, you know, we're on a shift system and that kind of thing, it became very quickly apparent that. Something wasn't right. And, you know, at first I thought, oh, it's the pandemic, probably everyone's feeling like this, you know, that kind of mood where they're not sure which day it is and kind of, you know, not sure kind of what's going on. But then I realize actually something else is up.
Henry:
You know, I had to kind of figure out what it was that was causing, you know, the feelings that I was having, which were quite low feelings. I don't want to go as far to say I was depressed, but I just think it was very, you know, it was probably the lowest point I'd had before, you know, and it wasn't easy because I felt like I didn't have people to speak to again, not because I couldn't speak to people. There were services at the university or people in my group I could have talked to and I did talk to, you know, people, but I didn't want to admit, you know, just how low I was feeling because again, I thought that was a sign of weakness. And you know, it's only now that I look back and realized I talked about it at the right time. So, you know, it was only January of this year that I actually said to my supervisor, That's it, you know, I'm done. I tried this past year in lockdown and I'm not happy. So. So yeah, it was, you know, the imposter syndrome, but also the toll of the pandemic. And to be honest, I know no one expected any of this. So I'm sure, you know, won't be the only person that had kind of negative feelings around, you know, being isolated like that. But yeah, it was almost that feeling of kind of helplessness.
Henry:
And, you know, not that I didn't want to talk to my parents about it. I just didn't didn't want to worry them because there were things going on in my own family that, you know, I felt were more more important than, you know, how I was feeling. And yeah, this probably sounds really, really bad. Like, I should have said something, but I just, yeah, I just thought my problems with that small that it didn't matter. And yeah, I just got to the point where I was like, You know, I'm sick of this. I didn't enjoy going to the lab like it was. It felt like a chore was to be there. So that's kind of what I said. Enough is enough, and I just said to my supervisor, Look, what can we do? Is there any way I can still come out with something from this? Again, that's because I want to appear to have achieved something, you know? So having the master's isn't just, you know, the piece of paper to say, I've got it, but also just to say that I have not quote unquote wasted this time. You know, I know I haven't because I've learned so many skills, and I know it's silly to say that I've wasted it because I haven't. But just to have that kind of acknowledgement to say that, you know, you're good enough and you've got this. There you go. Now, go on and do whatever you're going to do next.
Henry:
And it is only now, you know, the past week or two that I've had the time of the submit my thesis just to think. And I have spent a lot of time on the sofa watching TV because I've had so many thoughts running through my head that. You know, I always didn't know how to process it and, you know, just writing it down, so I've started doing five minute gratitude journal at the start of every day and basically just write down five things I'm grateful for. And actually, one of the things I'm grateful for is hindsight, because it's wonderful. Of course, it's difficult to look back, but it's wonderful just to realize that you weren't happy where you were. But now you're going to be happier in what you're doing next. And I think it's really important that people need to take that time to self-reflect because I was so. So caught up in the rigmarole of, you know, fg life, I didn't actually think. Take a second to think, is this right for me? And it's only when you take a step back that you can kind of appreciate not just how lucky you are in a previous position to even be doing a Ph.D., but realize that it's okay to say no and do something else if it means you're going to be happier in yourself. Because, as I say, life's too short to not pursue something that makes you happy.
Henry:
Also, the thing of just let it go and this is something I'm dealing with right now because I haven't yet let it go to realize that I'm going to do something completely different now. You know, not in academia anymore. I'm finding it quite difficult just to let it go. Yeah, I think it will be difficult. It's going to be a slow journey. But I say, I think when the vibe is done, it will probably feel a bit more finished. But at the moment, it's still that kind of funny limbo period. I think past me was so worried about what could be or how other people perceived me that I just didn't think, Well, am I actually happy what I'm doing? And if the answer is no, go and do something else, I I don't know. I think a lot of people, I'm sure in academia are those that say yes to a lot of opportunities, and I think it's something I'm learning slowly to do. And I still not. I'm not very good at it saying no. I was always saying yes to things and quite quickly it becomes overwhelming. And now I'm just realizing with pretty much nothing to do bar, you know, recording my podcasts and watching the tennis, it's actually quite freeing, like having a calendar that isn't blocked to the rafters of things to do. And personally, I think and this is maybe a controversial topic, but I think for the work that PhD students have to endure over the course of three or four years, we talked about it in jest earlier on, but the amount of money they're paid for, the kind of worth they're providing is isn't enough.
Henry:
It's, you know, I see all these, all these funding bodies, you cry all these, I don't know in Australia what it is, but you know the worth that students bring to not just the research community, but themselves as individuals is just so undervalued. I think it's something that needs to change. And again, it's only from an outsider's perspective that you realize that, yes, something's madly wrong with the system. But the issue is that's the system. A lot of people will just say, Well, that's it, you know, that's the system. Deal with it. And I got to the point where I was like, No, like, I'm not just going to deal with a system that's obviously flawed. And for me, it wasn't giving me the value that I wanted in terms of fulfillment kind of motivating me to want to do the work I was doing. So I was like, Let's do something else. So I talked to my supervisor, and he advised that you could do the MPhil. I'd never heard of that before. So what's it informed Master of Philosophy? What's this? And he was like, Yeah, you can do this within two years of starting your PhD. So that's what I'm doing now.
Henry:
I finish at the end of June rather than the end of the academic year, and that's actually worked out quite well because it gave me time to search for jobs and, you know, that kind of thing. And now I've got something to start mid-July. So that's kind of really exciting. And yeah, I just I know that was a long ramble, but I think it's just really important that, you know, I give my side of the story just to say that, yeah, it wasn't all bad. You know, from an outside perspective, people would have said, Oh, you're doing really well at the PhD again. You know, from a family perspective, I didn't tell them much of this because I didn't want to worry, you know, people always say to me, Oh, you'll be fine, you're really good. You know, you're so smart, you're so clever. So, you know, I always just say, Well, that's me. So I've got to get up here. You know, I've got a reach that high bar when actually everyone's bar for me is actually here. So there's a disparity there, and that's probably where all of the feelings come from, because I'm always going to have to go that extra mile for some reason. And again, it comes back to a feeling of having to prove myself. Yeah, I think I think I'm starting to enough is enough. You know, you get to a point. It could be any point in your life.
Henry:
You could be, I don't know, in a job you've been in for 40 years and be like, Well, actually, I'm not enjoying this job anymore. I'm going to go I know campground in a camper van around the Amazon rainforest. I don't know. It could be anything that, you know, life is too short to do what you don't enjoy. So go and do it because you only you only have one life, right? And all you're going to do if you aren't happy is look back and regret it. And I don't want to do that because as I say, I feel like I have a reason to be here. So I don't want that reason to be because I miserable, because what's the point? And this isn't to say, you know, everyone that's doing a Ph.D., I totally think, you know, if it's the right thing for you, brilliant, you know, go and do it because, you know, I know some people want to do it because they want to become professors or they want to go maybe into medicines. They do the doctor and. Good medicine, I don't know. But, you know, everyone's different, and I think for me, it's realizing that and that I don't just have to do what everyone else is doing because I feel like it's the right thing to do. Because it's this I realize it's not the right thing for me, and that's OK. And yeah, I don't know. Does that answer the question?
Emily:
Absolutely. No, definitely. I think you touched on a lot of really important points there, and I think there were some additional questions that I sort of had, but you've really answered it there in what you've covered. Let's take a quick break. I did want to ask because, you know, for someone with such high expectations of themselves and I can definitely relate to that, and I know this is really recent and quite raw for you to have made this decision and made this change. But were there any sort of quite strong feelings that were coming up for you during that process of sort of deciding whether or not to withdraw? And and even now in in terms of letting go of academia, are you able to touch on that a little bit if you feel comfortable?
Henry:
Yeah, sure. So I mean, certainly feelings of worry in that I didn't know what would come next. And also, was I doing the right thing like the whole thing of self doubt is is a big thing and it always has been for me. It's kind of like, am I doing the right thing? And perhaps that comes from low self confidence and it's something that I had, I think as a when I was younger as well, I just wasn't very confident in myself. So I'd always worry that, you know, I couldn't succeed, even though everyone would tell me around me that you, I could. Yeah, I felt I was letting people down. I felt was letting myself down. You know, I was worried that I have nothing to do next. And I was like, What? Who am I? I literally that was a question I asked myself and I say, I do this journaling, and I literally wrote down one day, Who am I? Question mark? And I wrote, I think I made it to write one page before I just stopped. I was like, Well, I don't actually know, and all I had were there was academic stuff and I was like, You know, and that's really that was an eye opener for me because I'm more than that, I think. And, you know, I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but you know, for those that, you know, feel like their identities, a singular thing.
Henry:
I mean, it's important that you realize no like you're so much more than just a degree or something that you've achieved a job or whatever it might be. And for me, it was that self-doubt and, you know, worry that people just view me in the eyes of, Oh, you've got this degree or or you didn't get a PhD. So I'm I'm disappointed or something like that. And it's not something that anyone said to me per say. But again, it's that feeling that you have that how you think people perceive you. And that's always been a struggle for me, as I've almost always perceived myself through the eyes of how I think other people perceive me. And for me, it was realizing that actually. I'm fine just the way I am a PhD or PhD, it doesn't change any of the experiences I've had, any of the skills I gained, any of the friends I've made. I'm still me and people still love me for who I am, you know, and for me, it's almost loving myself, for who I am. It sounds really corny, I guess. But you know, and that's just accepting that is that, you know, I won't have a PhD, but so what? I mean, I never I never said when I was 11 years old, when I started secondary school, I never said, Oh, I want to do a Ph.D., I want to, you know, be Dr Doctor Davies.
Henry:
I was like, I had no idea what was, let alone wanting to do one. I was encouraged to do one because, you know, people thought I had the aptitude for it, and I just went along with it because again, I'm somewhat the people pleaser. I always have been and almost want to do right by others before always thinking, Is this right for me? And again, that's where the point I got to this was like, Actually, no, I still want to, you know, please. But I still want people to be pleased for me and happy. But I have to put myself first, because the only person that puts you first at the end of the day is you. You know, you're the person who wakes up in the morning. You're the person that has to go out and live your life. No one else could do that for you. So you've got to be happy in yourself and know that when you're on your own, you know you're in your own company that you can be OK. And I know for some people, you know, they don't enjoy their company. For me, for example, I've realized what I was missing in terms of having a partner now, just having someone to talk to about all of this. And, you know, as I met her in August of last year and like just having her support for all of this, I I had these thoughts of quitting in like November time.
Henry:
I didn't talk to her about it. I didn't talk to my parents about it. I'd only talk to my supervisor and close people in the group at that point and then kind of made the official decision in January time. And that's when I talked to both my parents and my girlfriend about it because not that I didn't want to talk to them. I just didn't know how they'd react, you know, because especially my parents, you know, they always wanted me to succeed and kind of knew I had the academic success to pack it up. And, you know, always wanted me to do the best I could. So, you know, it was a disappointment for them and, you know, they didn't actually say that. But then, you know, I talked about wanting to be happier for me. They were like, Oh, that that makes sense. And that acceptance that actually, you know, I'm choosing to do what's making me happier made me feel a lot more. I don't know, just kind of still in myself, I guess, you know, just kind of like, happy with the decision I made. And likewise, my girlfriend, like, completely supported it and said, you know, I've seen like she was saying it just the other day. I've seen how happy you are or so much happier you've been since, you know, changing your mind.
Henry:
And actually, you know, that's again, that's because I don't see that she sees that externally because, you know, she sees how I've been day to day. And that's been kind of really reaffirming to know that actually, for me, doubting whether it was the right decision, but knowing that someone else sees me in a happier mood that. You know, I feel more fulfilled. I'm more certain, especially now, we have a job to go to. Of course, you know, when I was applying for jobs for the past two months, 200 jobs, several rejections, you know, lots of interviews, it's anyone that's applied for graduate jobs, knows just how difficult it is. It's tumultuous. And yeah, it was hard, but I got through it and it was certainly wasn't the hardest thing I've had to endure. But it was difficult and it was mentally exhausting. But I had to keep that in mind that actually I was doing it to be better in myself in the end. And I, you know, I've got a job now and I'm really excited. It's totally different. You know, it's not necessarily chemistry related, but I'm excited to see, you know, what's next and actually just be out of the academic bubble. Of course I'm on Twitter. Still, I'm still going to be interacting with people. Got the podcast? All that kind of thing. I've just been made a real time ambassador as well, which is really exciting.
Emily:
And congratulations.
Henry:
Thank you. I say thank you to Dr. J. And I think Laura as well for offering me the chance to do that. Yeah. So it's kind of like it's that thing of gone, but not forgotten kind of thing. I'm not just going to suddenly forget that chemistry was a part of my life for the past, you know, near on seven years now. It's always a part of me. I always have enjoyed learning about chemistry. I think I've just got to the point where I'm done and, you know, I was burnt out as well. I think to a point, you know, especially with the pandemic, I just if anyone's seen Groundhog Day, the film, that's what initially the pandemic felt like for me is that I'd wake up. I have my desk in my bedroom, so I'd wake up. Can I have breakfast, shower, sit down, open slack and then zoom whatever and then just work? And I'm one of these people that would just work, work, work. And then it would be eight hours later and suddenly it's six o'clock. And where's the day gone? Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's it was a lot of feelings, but I think, yeah, burnout coupled with kind of anxiety around, was it the right decision for me? And then I think back to when I chose to do the PhD again, it wasn't because I wanted to do it at the end of undergrad.
Henry:
I just kind of had no job offers. And it was just it sounds bad because I know for a lot of people it's what they want to do, but it was the easy option. You know, it was just like, you kind of fell into it. And I've spoken to several people who have said the same that, you know, they didn't have great offers, so they kind of just went and did it. And I think for me, if I'd carried on for the next two years, I would have been so miserable. I don't know where I would have ended up, to be honest at the end. Yes, I think it just feels like the right time. And I think that's important that I've kind of recognized that.
Emily:
And I think going back on a on a couple of points, I I don't think it's arrogant, you know, to say that you're more than your research or you're more than your academia. Like, I think we're all multidimensional people. And I think definitely I can relate. And a few other guests that I've had on the podcast and other people that I've spoken to can relate to having your identity tied up in, you know, your academic success. I think that's really relatable, but we are definitely more than that. And I think it's really exciting that you're sort of starting to find out who you are outside of that and where that's going to lead you. A couple of other things were, yeah, just because you have the the capability to do something doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to enjoy it, that it's the right path for you. And I think that can be something that's really difficult to separate as well because, you know, if you're focusing at school, you kind of if you're achieving well in something, then that might encourage you to pursue that thing you don't necessarily think about. Or do I like this or not, actually, because you might love something, but be terrible at it? But the way that the school system and the university system kind of is, you almost get discouraged away from doing that. Yeah. So, yeah, I can definitely relate to that one as well. And yeah, I guess I'm I'm just excited for you for this next chapter to have made this decision that this is what's right for you. And you've alluded to it a couple of times now, but I'll say, yeah, you're becoming a graduate data analyst, which I think is really exciting. And and I wish you the best of luck with that.
Henry:
Thank you. I'm really excited.
Emily:
We could probably go so many places with this conversation, but I am wary that we've sort of gone over time, so I will try to wrap up this episode now. And thank you for sharing and just say, I'm really looking forward to hearing the next part of your story as well. Great.
Henry:
So thanks. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm excited to tell you a bit more in the next episode.
Emily:
Sounds good. So just a reminder if listeners would like to get in touch with Henry. He's available on Twitter @hpowelldavies and we'll put a link to that in the show notes and also @ChemConvosPod, which is the podcast that he's. alluded to a couple of times. I might talk a little bit more about in the next episode as well. So to you listening, thank you for listening close to the end. Stick around for details on how to share your own story, and I look forward to having you back in a couple of weeks to hear the next part of Henry's story. Henry will talk us through how he decided to put himself first, rather than let his mental health suffer for the sake of a title before now. Before you go, we have some support resources and information for how you can share your own story. If this episode brought anything up for you, there are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.checkpointorg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.voicesofacademia.com There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely Voices of Academia team member Daniel Ranson.
Emily:
This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of Academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @academicvoices and also share stories in blog form, with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe! Tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.voicesofacademia.com. To sign up if you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, ex academic or any other type of researcher, Follow @academicvoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website www.voicesofacademia.com. For details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
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