Ep10_Withdrawing from a PhD_Tonja Wright.mp3
Ep10_Withdrawing from a PhD_Tonja Wright.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep10_Withdrawing from a PhD_Tonja Wright.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey there. A quick warning before we start today's episode touches on depression. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support if you need it.
Today's guest, Tonja Wright, withdrew from her PhD in climate change studies, at the University of Melbourne in Australia. As you'll learn over the next two episodes, she retrained as an interior designer and has now combined her knowledge of environmental science, wellbeing and design to found a business. This is a mouthful, but it's an evidence based, green inclusive and vegan interior design consultancy for workplaces aimed at improving productivity and wellbeing. It's called Design to Transform. Today, Tonja opens up about treatment resistant depression, the difficult decision to leave her PhD and how she's now grateful to have re-evaluated her life's direction.
Tonja:
Basically, I got to the point where I couldn't even read the first sentence of the abstract. I just couldn't concentrate on it. The words just weren't going into my brain and I wasn't making any sense of it. And that was really scary. And I think that's definitely when I had to just be like, OK, I'm not well and I need some help. I had to take some sick leave. And then I went back part time and it took me quite a few years to decide to leave, which I did in the end.
Emily:
I also just wanted to quickly thank you for engaging with voices of academia. The blog is just past its one year anniversary. Yay! There are over 50 entries from worldwide researchers exploring a range of things that impact mental health within academia. If you'd like to read about our achievements to date and our future goals. Our co-founders, Dr Mersa, Kate Edwards and Dr Zoe is recently published a blog on our website titled One Year On. The podcast is also just past four months since launch, we've had over a thousand downloads from nine episodes and I'm starting to hear how these stories have touched some of you. I'm incredibly grateful to you as listeners for tuning in each fortnight and helping our little community grow. Thank you. Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily Cain, it's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalize difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it.
Emily:
I wanted to talk a little bit about how we met, so this is a bit of a different story, I guess a lot of the time we have people sort of coming forward wanting to share their story on the podcast. And I've never met them in person before. But with you, I met you through a mutual friend at trivia here in Melbourne, and I don't even know how we got onto the subject. But I found out that you'd done a PhD and we went up to get a drink or something. And I think I might have mentioned this podcast and what I was doing. And you very openly sort of shared with me that you'd become ill during your PhD. And it just kind of made me want to know more about you, because I knew that you were now starting this business and I found it so inspiring. And it's the reason why I reached out to you to sort of be a guest on this podcast, because I think it's really admirable to use lived experience to help others. And in my eyes, that's exactly what you're doing. So do you want to do for the listeners, maybe chat just very quickly about sort of what you're doing?
Tonja:
Yeah, thanks. I really yeah. It's a really fun night at trivia when I was over in Melbourne for Melbourne Design Week. So as she told me about your PUCA, I guess it really touched me because I think it's so important for people to share their stories because there are so many stories of people doing that day and coming up against some mental health issues. And so that's what happened to me, basically. And I had to take some sick leave. And then I went back part time and it took me quite a few years to decide to leave, which I did in the end. But that experience has really shaped what I'm trying to do in my business today, which is help increase people's productivity and wellbeing in the office and working from home.
Emily:
Yeah, and I just I felt like it was this really beautiful intersection between you as a scientist and, you know, what you learned about wellbeing. And I and I sort of I wanted to know more about it. So just before we go into a couple of sort of questions to get to know you a little bit, but I know you mentioned you've got an online course for working mums to improve that productivity. Did you want to tell us quickly about that?
Tonja:
Yeah. So that's something that I am working at the moment that we'll be launching. Basically, it's to help people working from home. And this one in particular is made for working moms in mind because they are the people who really, really need it. I've been working with some mums to track what they do in a week, so I've been following them around and getting them to write down all the little distractions, because even necessarily when they don't have their kids at home with their finding that they actually haven't been getting that many hours in the day, and these are women who are either entrepreneurs or working in jobs, and their work life is being impacted by the household duties and chores and just looking after their kids as well.
Emily:
I know it's not necessarily aimed at mothers in academia, but if you are a working mom in academia and you think that this might be useful for you? Well, definitely put a link in the episode description. So, yeah, I do just want to thank you, Tonja, for agreeing to come forward and sort of talk a bit about your story. I know it can be a little bit scary to speak openly about these things. And we went from meeting in a pub to now talking about some pretty vulnerable topics. So I really do want to thank you for being willing to to be open and vulnerable with me.
Tonja:
Ok, thanks, Emily. And to give me the opportunity to talk about it, because I think it's really important for people to speak up.
Emily:
Thank you. So I kind of I want to know a little bit about you, the person. And I thought I would start with asking you, what is your favourite way to spend a day off?
Tonja:
Well, I think definitely for me, it's about getting out into nature and an environmental scientist. So I have a few places around Adelaide that I like to go to the Botanic Gardens and the Arboretum, but I always have a million creative projects on the go. And if I were to angle my screen, you'd be able to see what is my office studio is just full of it. So we see some clay like pottery from textiles, things like that. So I always have a million little things that I'm trying to work on my time off. Definitely.
Emily:
Clearly something you're very passionate about.
Tonja:
Yeah. So for me, previously I had been always been creative, but. It wasn't really, I guess, fostered growing up. It was definitely a really nurturing the academic side. And so I've always had these things I saw as hobbies on the side. And it wasn't until I ended up leaving my day that I actually retrained as a designer and has really been saying these things. It's not just like little help is on the side, but actually really stepping into my creativity every day.
Emily:
And it's really interesting that you bring that up, because my next question was going to be, what were you like as a kid?
Tonja:
As a kid? I was a really, really avid reader and probably precociously, sir, and read a few things that you probably shouldn't read for young developing mind. Like what I was just obsessed with. Like the romantics are pretty much like Get Byron, Shelley Bronte, things like that, that. Yeah, some of those books. I don't think they should be given to people who were like 12 years old. So it really did shape the way I saw things, but also absolutely gave me a love of words and literature. And that's what I wanted to be for a long time was English lit professor. So it was actually last minute that I became an environmental scientist.
Emily:
Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask, because I know you've indicated to me prior to recording that you since you sort of 12 or something, you knew that you wanted to be an academic. So what was it that sort of drew you to research? And you said you originally wanted to be a professor and then had this last minute change. Why do you think you were so interested in kind of going in that direction
Tonja:
To me, especially growing up? I just absolutely loved ideas and knowledge. And I guess that was a bit of escapism for me. So I spent a lot of time in my head and being an academic to seemed like the logical conclusion to that and being able to be on the edge of our frontier of knowledge just seems so exciting. And so does and I come from a family that has some academics in it. So it's not necessarily an unusual thing. It's quite normalised in my family. So, yeah, it's just something that I thought, wow, wouldn't this be great? That's your full time job is just to explore ideas.
Emily:
Yeah, I can relate to that. Actually, I'm very much afraid of myself too. So I guess some will talk a little bit more in a minute about some of your experiences in academia. But I wanted to ask you, I guess because because this is a bit different and I've asked you to come forward when you were kind of thinking about whether this was right for you or not. Can I ask why you decided you wanted to share your story?
Tonja:
Yeah. And if it was something that I did have to think about, I think a big part of the reason why I said yes was because pretty much everyone I know he's done to date has had some form of mental health issue during it, whether that's depression or anxiety. And, you know, you read so many statistics about how elevated those issues are in the population, but it was also quite difficult for me. I guess I needed to make sure that I was in a space where I felt comfortable talking about it. I think even a year or two ago, I probably couldn't have spoken about it because I was still. I don't think had done enough work to process that time, and it was still had a lot of emotional pull for me, whereas now I think I am ready that I can talk about it with a little bit of emotional distance and see that time as a time in the past and the lessons that I've learnt from it. And so it's hoping that by talking about it, you know, it can help go some way to reducing some of the stigma that's still around. Even when we talk about depression, even though this is such a normal thing for so many people, and I think especially in this kind of high achieving academic world, so many people are facing these issues, but they don't really want to talk about it because, again, for me, it was so hard to. They faced with reduced mental faculties, and that was really upsetting for me and yeah, something that I kind of felt quite ashamed about for a long time. So, yeah, that's why I decided to say yes to you.
Emily:
And thank you again for coming forward. I can definitely relate to finding it very difficult to sort of not being able to do things for some time because those mental abilities were reduced. And I think, you know, as much as anxiety and depression are very common, I think I really wanted to have you on because I know that they're experiencing very different ways by everyone. And sort of really, as far as I'm aware, no one, no story is the same. So in sort of, you know, allowing people to hear different experiences, there might be a group of people that will really resonate with what you have to say about what you experienced in the past.
Tonja:
Yeah, and I hope so. And I hope I can help people get some help that they need because I was feeling so ashamed about it and the stigma of it that it took me a while to seek help and tell people what was going on for me. And obviously, once you tell people they can help you, but it's really hard to take that first step. So, yeah, I hope if anyone's going through at the moment that this might help them be ready to ask for help.
Emily:
And that's definitely something I want to touch on a little bit later as well. So we will shift gears now. And for our listeners, if listening today brings anything up for you, I'd encourage you to reach out to one of your supports, contact your GP or access the relevant support numbers and resources for your country at W-W checkpoint org dot com forward slash global. So tawnya I do want to do like a very quick well-being check. I know we had a chat sort of before we started recording, but you know, we're in the middle of a pandemic. And as much as you know, personally, I feel quite fortunate to be in Australia through this obviously lockdown in Melbourne last year was extremely difficult. But we're now at the point where society is quite open to us. You're in Adelaide, so you're in a different state in Australia. And I know everyone has experienced this very differently. So I guess how are you given the pandemic and sort of life in general?
Tonja:
Yeah, there's a big question, but yeah, it's it is a privilege to be in somewhere like Adelaide at the moment because we really have an experienced covid to the extent that pretty much anywhere else has. And things have been quite, you know, as normal for a while again. But actually the pandemic didn't have that much of a negative impact on me. I originally at the beginning, I did get laid off from my design job, but that kind of led me to, I guess, go inward and do a lot more personal work on myself and a lot of meditation and really just looking after my body and my mental health. So I think I really love it up in that sense. And then it also gave me that work, gave me the confidence to start my own business. So actually, yeah, I've actually had a pretty good year in comparison to I know a lot of people. And sometimes that's hard to say because, you know, it has been such a devastating time for a lot of people. But I think it was a great opportunity to look inward and do any work that you needed to on yourself. And I definitely took that opportunity.
Emily:
Yeah. And I can understand why that would be difficult to talk about, but that's something I didn't know. And that's really interesting. And yeah, I mean, I guess we were talking before recording again about radical gratitude. Right? So we had this global pandemic, which was still is devastating. But in your personal experience, it's led to, you know, some some beneficial outcomes. So prior to recording, you also you confided in me that you have personally experienced bouts of depression. And that was sort of since you were a teenager and that you experienced significant treatment, resistant depression during your day, which you said was in your mid 20s and that lasted for approximately five years. So so, again, thank you for being willing to sort of be open and vulnerable about that. I can relate. And that's part of why I'm interested to talk to you about your personal experience. But could you maybe talk us through, I guess, that that journey for you perhaps starting. When you entered sort of academia, when you were within academia, when was sort of the first time that you started to experience depression in that time, and and what did that sort of look like for you?
Tonja:
Yeah, so basically, I had I had experience depression in my teens, especially around my matriculation and I guess the pressures of that, but then I had gone on to uni and had a great undergrad and this year as well, and I ended up moving to Melbourne from Adelaide to do my PhD. And I think finally everything was kind of in place. I had exactly the life that I'd always dreamt of growing up. And I think I had been really pushing myself and along to get to this place that I had seen in my mind. And yet everything was perfect. And I think that's when I was just like, OK, that's it. Like you've been like, drag yourself to get here. You've been pushing yourself to get here. And finally, everything's exactly how you want it so we can just let everything come out now. I guess so, yeah. I had my first year, I had started a topic. I didn't have a topic already locked in for my PhD. So really my first year was trying to come up with my research question and direction. And I think it can be quite overwhelming when you actually can do anything and you're trying to find the gaps in the literature and the gaps in the knowledge. And like I was saying before to me earlier on, the idea of just that freedom to chase whatever inspirational ideas you have was so liberating to me and so exciting to me.
Tonja:
But then after a while, I started to become a little oppressive. And I think this is the problem that a lot of people I know have when they're doing their pages is that you're always having to move on to new knowledge because as soon as you know something, you need to move on. So I think if you ask most students, do they feel smart, they'll probably say the Superdome because you literally are constantly in this day of not knowing anything. And again, that can be a really beautiful thing. But after a while, it can actually start to grate on you. And that's really what happened to me. And that's why sometimes I really love teaching was because and I still had, like all the energy in the world, even when I was quite depressed in other ways to be teaching, because I think, you know, it's something that, you know, something and you're helping people and it's something that you can feel really confident about. Whereas my research, I just felt like I was floundering a bit. So I started to notice that I just didn't have the motivation or the energy and where that was manifesting in.
Tonja:
I find it really difficult to get out of bed and be there on time. And and again, that's another thing I had gone pretty much straight through. I'd have some breaks between study for traveling and I'd had some jobs here and there, but never a nine to five job. So I guess I didn't have the discipline that's needed for that kind of thing. And I was letting it slide a bit. So, you know, you start racking up a little later maybe as productive and work. You just getting distracted really easily. The biggest thing that I noticed was my ability to concentrate. So previously I'd be reading a paper and I'd be able to read it really quickly. And you start making a lot of connections in my mind and having ideas. But then I got to the point where I just it took a few months, but basically I got to the point where I couldn't even read the first sentence of the abstract. I just couldn't concentrate on it. The words just weren't going into my brain and I wasn't making any sense of it. And that was really scary. And I think that's definitely when I had to just be like, OK, I know well and I need some help.
Emily:
Yeah. And there is something I just wanted to quickly say in terms of you made a comment that you think maybe you lacked discipline from not having done a nine to five job. I feel like that's a little bit self-critical. I think I think a PhD is such a challenging experience and we don't really have, you know, deadlines. You know, we don't have short term deadlines all the time. We don't necessarily get any feedback. It's really, really challenging to stay motivated and to keep going in like at the same time every day, particularly if lots of things are going wrong. So personally, I really don't feel like that's a fault with you. I think it's just a very, very challenging thing to do.
Tonja:
Well, I think. I've noticed with people who have come back to do a day when they've had time out in the workforce, that they have that discipline and habit from working to fall back on which when things are getting hot, I don't think I had already ingrained in me. So I've definitely seen the difference between students who are just going straight from undergrad, straight into post grad work and people who have spent time out in the workforce. I definitely I mean, it probably was a little self-critical, but I feel like I would approach it very differently now because I have had those experiences.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I say it because I try not to criticize myself when I'm having trouble getting in on time. So maybe that's maybe defensive. Yeah. So sorry. That very challenging to get to a point where you are having difficulty reading a sentence and you know, as someone that obviously achieved very highly and was able to get into a PhD program at a in Australia. University of Melbourne is a very prestigious university. So know what that sort of do to your sense of yourself when you weren't able to do some of those things that perhaps, I guess, you might have previously taken for granted?
Tonja:
Yeah, and I think that was the biggest thing for me. My whole identity was really locked up in my intellect. And like I said, I've always loved learning and ideas. And to have that, like reading is my favorite thing to do and to have that taken from me was just so devastating. And so it really made me realize that I only ever really saw myself in relation to my work and my career. And I wasn't valuing anything else, any other part of me. And I think that's the biggest thing that I've had to learn now and through that recovery process with seeing yourself as more than just your work. And I know society kind of sets it up to be that way. The first thing you ask anyone you meet is like, what do you do? And it's really hard not to see yourself as just what you do for work. But since then, I've had to broaden my definition of myself and my identity and see all the other things besides besides work. So, you know, things that I love, my passions, my hobbies, my creativity and my relationships, things like that, just brought in that idea of identity and also success, because that was the other crazy thing. I while I was finding it so hard to do anything to do with my PhD, I was still able to teach and still able to do lab work and things like that and still volunteering a lot. And I just didn't value any of that, you know. Now I look back and I'm proud of that work and proud that I was lecturing in my first year and was able to do this work on some really interesting projects. But back in when I was in that state, I couldn't have cared less about that because it wasn't my PhD and I decided that maybe it was the most important thing. So, yeah, it's strange. I think it's definitely got to do with your mindset and how you identify yourself.
Emily:
Yeah. And I mean, definitely a huge achievement to be lecturing in the first year of your degree. But I can I can I can relate. And I think it's so common that students find themselves sort of tied up with the day and it kind of is all consuming and it's kind of very difficult to see anything other than that. But I imagine having done that, work for yourself will lead you potentially to be more productive. And I you know, it's obviously led you in a direction that's much better aligned with who you are. So, yeah, I can definitely say the positives from my own personal work as well. But it's it's nice to hear about that approach. So you. Yeah, you said you sort of got to a point where you realised that you might need some help. And again, prior to recording, you indicated that you think it's really important to sort of not be afraid of reaching out and asking for help and you advice kind of getting help as early as possible rather than waiting until it is quite difficult to function. And I feel like there's a story there.
Tonja:
Yeah. So I think it's particularly odd. I was in Melbourne. And my my dad does live in Melbourne, but a little far out, and we weren't necessarily that close to that time. And I basically the only real support network I had was my boyfriend, who had been on and off together and we'd been in Adelaide. He's from Adelaide as well. So really, I had kind of just had no support network and I was just kind of pushing him away. And I was finding it so difficult. Like we said before, it's it's not just the physical effects, but it's also the way you see yourself and feeling like a failure and feeling ashamed of being in this position as well. That makes it really it really hard for me to say anything. But, you know, as soon as I did, I remember going into my supervisor's office and I was just I need to tell you something. And then what? I yeah, I found it really difficult. And I was just sat there pretty much crying and saying, you know, I'm not coping very well. And, you know, I think I'm depressed. And it was kind of from that point that things started to get better or improve because they just were taking everything off my shoulders. Right. Right. Well, let's get you on sick leave.
Tonja:
So I had six months off of my projects and they were so supportive and so lovely about it, which I think makes all the difference. I really I really do think it's all about your supervisors and not necessarily your projects, but it's so important to have, you know, really understanding and supportive people on your team. And then I started doing talking therapy seriously for the first time in my life and tried many different realities of that which I think Schamus therapy actually helped me the most, which I hadn't heard of before. And yeah, trying pharmaceuticals as well and just getting just getting linked up with all the health care providers and GP and things like that that I really had to navigate as well. So if you can have anyone that can help you do that, because sometimes even just making an appointment with your GP feels like a really difficult thing to do. And I've actually done that for friends in the past where I've run someone out to make an appointment for them because sometimes I can't do it yourself. So I think it's so important to whoever it is, your family, friends, your university, to provide with whatever you need. I think it's just really important to find some people to help you out.
Emily:
Yeah, and I would really love to talk about what kind of support specifically your supervisor provided in the next episode, because I'm really interested to hear that because it sounds like they were really fantastic. And I'd also like to ask you a little bit about Schamus therapy, because I haven't heard about that either. So we'll chat about those things in the next episode. So you took some time off your day and you said that that was, you know, obviously you would have been sort of managing treatment and recovery, but it allowed you at some point to sort of re-evaluate your career path. And then we said previously you'd sort of been like very adamant that you wanted to be an academic, sincere about 12. So then you get to this point, like, what sort of happened for you?
Tonja:
Yeah. So it is really difficult. I had started to go to therapy really seriously and was really having to face a lot of the reasons why I was in this position. And it was the first time that I'd really taken time out and taking stock of where I was as an adult. Like I said, I'd had this idea of wanting to be an academic since I was quite small and the discipline had changed for what I was interested in. But go. And the main idea happened. So this was the first time that I as an adult, was assessing what I wanted to do with my life and a career. And I think I am quite grateful to that time to be able to actually say, well, I made this decision as a child with not knowing much about the world or about myself. And so here I was in my mid 20s, you know, with a better idea. Obviously not a perfect idea, but, yeah, a better idea of maybe what I was interested in myself and not as a product of my upbringing. So that's another thing that came up for me was definitely that creative drive. And I think I chose research because that's. Most creative thing you can do in science, I think, is research itself is a very creative endeavor.
Tonja:
But I was still trying to work out whether that was actually right for me. And I did go through phases. Well, maybe I actually want to be a full time artist or something like that. So I was definitely everything was open. But I think it was really important because I think we get told at school to choose what we want to be when we're young. And even though at school we got told. Well, your generation will probably have many different careers in their lifetime. You're still meant to decide something when you're like 17, 18, and then just go off and do it. And if you don't give yourself time out, I did have slightly a gap year that did the Ivy. And I use that time to work out what kind of science I was interested in and do some volunteer work and things like that. But I still never really questioned really the core idea of who I was and what I wanted to do with my life. So, yeah, I'm actually now when I look back, I am thankful for that time out to ask those questions of myself, because otherwise I might never have done that.
Emily:
Yeah. And I think it can be really easy to kind of get on this track and you kind of just like a rolling ball, just kind of keep going down it. And, you know, I've been aware of a number of people that have just ended up, you know, that that just feel trapped sort of in something because they never really stopped and thought about the direction they were going. And I don't know I don't know if that's I feel like it's almost rare to stop and really think about and re-evaluate because we are so formed by what happens when we're young. So, yeah, I think it's a very difficult thing to do, but also a very beneficial thing. And like I said, obviously it's led you in a direction that's much more aligned with you. And that's because of the work that you've done for yourself.
Tonja:
And I think it's like I have. So I have some friends who have realized I got to a stage in their thirties that they realize maybe this isn't the right career for them that they found themselves in, but have that feeling that it's too late to change because they've built this. Yeah, they've built this career, this industry authority. So even though they're not feeling happy with what they're doing anymore, they're finding it difficult to make a big change in that way. And, you know, I'm not saying it's easy. I've done a couple of times now and it's definitely what they don't tell you about that. It takes a lot of courage to to make the change. But then when you're that, it's it is difficult starting all over again. You know, I went from, I can say, lecturing at Melbourne Uni to being a student at Tife, doing a diploma within a year or so. And that was such a huge culture shock. And for me, that loss of status really did. I found it very difficult. So, yeah, I think you know why people are saying we will be changing careers quite often. They don't actually tell you that. Well, actually, it kind of sucks for a while.
Emily:
It's risky. It's financially challenging. It's terrifying. Yeah. So we we I feel like we could talk forever, but I do need to wrap up this part of the episode. So there's just one more sort of main line of questioning that I really wanted to get to, because I know this has come up for a lot of people. So you you said it took you quite a lot of years to to finally sort of make that decision to withdraw from your day and that you had sort of a lot of negative connotations around withdrawing. And I actually specifically call it withdrawing because I've been through this for myself and I don't want to say it's quitting, you know, so I'm going to use that language. But can you talk us through, like, sort of how you felt making that decision?
Tonja:
Yeah, look, I'm going to have to start using withdrawing now because I've had a problem with I don't know what colour I've said left my voice in the recording, but I've definitely got to use withdrawal from Alan. Yeah. Look, it was such a tough decision. And the thing I went so I had my six months completely off. Then I kind of went back part time and then I took some more time off, went back again. It was really it literally the process probably took three plus years. And the hardest thing for me was getting over that idea of not wanting to be a quitter. And that's something that I was having a lot of trouble with because obviously I'm not a quitter and. To me, it was hard because all the examples it have of people who had left their days because they couldn't do it physically or mentally. So to me, it did seem like failure having to withdraw. And it wasn't until I met I was doing some volunteer work and I met someone who had quit that day but was clearly brilliant. They'd end up starting their own business and they were so intelligent and dynamic.
Tonja:
And that was the first time I'd ever met someone who had left. But it wasn't because they were stupid or whatever, they couldn't hack it. All of those judges things that you say to yourself. So really seeing her thriving post quitting day, really for the first time, I thought to say, OK, well, you can still be smart, you can still be successful even if you don't finish this. One big moment for me was when I did finally do my confirmation and I had been unanimously accepted by six person panel. And, you know, I had received a lot of praise for my confirmation document as soon as I had that a voice inside of me, just that I quit, like because I needed to have that external validation that it was I could do it. I was smart enough to do what I was capable enough to do it. I just choose not to do it at this moment. So that was a really powerful thing as well, helping me make that decision.
Emily:
Yeah, that's interesting because I, I mean, I was struggling a lot when I did my confirmation and just put it all to the side and pretended like everything was OK and kind of got through that. And unfortunately, at that point, nothing made me think about re-evaluating my life decisions that came later for me. But I it's funny that you say that about sort of meeting this volunteer that kind of shifted your some of your negative connotations around withdrawing, because that's actually exactly how I felt about you when I met you, because, I mean, I have done a lot of personal work and kind of learned how to sort of or gotten better at separating myself from my achievements and from status. But there are still these things that kind of linger and, you know, you don't want to give up. And I don't know, it was really nice meeting you and sort of hearing a bit of your story and that you're now doing something that you're just so passionate about. And it's still a combination of of the scientific side of you, but the creative side and then also the well being. And I was kind of like, oh, like, you can do it. Like, it's it's you know, it's really and that's that's why I want to share this with the listeners as well, because I think that would be so many people listening. That would just be like, OK, like, you know, maybe it's not right for me right now. And that's fine. You know, you can come back to it like or you can just step away and you might actually find something that fits to a lot better. As much as it feels like it's the be all and end all, sometimes like it's not. And you can come out the other side of these really difficult experiences and find yourself in a place that's really beautiful and that you may not have found if you didn't withdraw, for example.
Tonja:
Exactly. And I think I really just needed this positive role model to show me that it was a possibility, because obviously, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. But when you're in in that space, it really does just seem like failure if you decide to step away. But now I can look back and it's it's like nothing is wasted. I'm using it. Absolutely. All the skills that I learned and that experience every day in my business. And it's helped me shape my business to have quite an interesting and unique niche. So it really is evidence based design. So basically, I am doing little reviews the whole time, just going back. So I really do feel like that is that research mindset is helping me create a really unique business. So I think it's important to see people in real life that I am showing you that that is is another way and it doesn't have to be a negative. It can be a positive. You quit and pivoted to something that suits you better.
Emily:
And I think that's probably a really good to wrap up this episode. Is there anything else you'd like to add before I wrap up there?
Tonja:
I think, I think that's good for now but, thank you for the opportunity to share my story with everyone.
Emily:
And thank you for sharing. And I am I really looking forward to the next part as well. So if our listeners would like to get in touch with you or learn more about you based on this episode, where can they find you?
Tonja:
People can find me on LinkedIn. That's just Tonja Wright. Tonja with a J or on Instagram @Tonja.Wright.
Emily:
And we'll put those links in the episode description for you as well. To our listeners, thanks for listening close to the end. Stick around for some details on how to share your own story. And I look forward to having you back in a couple of weeks to hear the next part of Tony's story. Tony will talk us through some of the support resources she's discovered, including, as we've discovered this episode, some of the support she received from her supervisors and also a little bit about schema therapy. Bye for now, before you go,
Emily:
We have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.checkpointorg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website. www.VoicesOfAcademia.com.
Emily:
There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely voices of academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our Web site www.VoicesOfAcademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health awareness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from me. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, x academic or any other type of researcher. Fuller Academic Voices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website. www.VoicesOfAcademia.com for details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
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