Ep21_Person-centred Mentoring_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3
Ep21_Person-centred Mentoring_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep21_Person-centred Mentoring_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey, there. A quick warning before we start today's episode touches on academic abuse. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support if you need it. Today, we return to India with Dr. Kartik Aiyer, a postdoc in electro microbiology, who opened up previously in episode 20 about the impact of poor faculty relationship had on his mental health during his PhD. Go check out the first part of his story. If you haven't already today, Kartik shares the benefits of a good academic, mentor and support network on mental health and productivity
Kartik:
Within the lab. If the supervisor helps the students be the best versions of themselves, that's going to be incredibly positive and that's going to set a very good vibe within the lab. With that shift in approach itself, half the problem is overcome. Another thing that I observe in some very positive labs, so that sort of culture where are just sort of helping each other, getting into a healthy discussions about how best to improve our goals, how best to improve professionally, how best to improve personally, this sort of atmosphere where everyone is kind of a support system to each other, it's very important to have such a lab. And I've seen that such labs, which emphasize mental health, which emphasize a healthy work life balance. Invariably, such labs bring out the best and they are the most productive labs.
Emily:
Also, the podcast is taking a break until around February. It's been another huge year, so I hope you get some time to rest and re-energize over the holiday period. See you next year!
Emily:
Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. It's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this has lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it.
Emily:
Hi, Kartik! Welcome back to the podcast!
Kartik:
Thanks, Emily.
Emily:
So, as I mentioned in the last episode, we know each other because you came forward in the early stages of Voices of Academia talking about launching our podcast, and you've also previously published a blog on our website... April of this year, so April of 2021 about improving the research culture. So I we spoke about that a little bit in the last episode, and I'll put a link in the episode description for that again today. But last episode, we sort of followed up a little bit on that and spoke about some of your personal negative interactions with faculty during your PhD. And I just want to thank you again because I know that would have been very difficult to talk about. And like I said at the end of last episode, there will be a lot of listeners that will relate to some of those experiences, unfortunately, but also be able to learn from you both in that last episode and also today, you know how they might be able to manage similar experiences. Right? So we learned a little bit about your life outside of academia before you open up about your story last episode and today. Similarly, I'd sort of like to learn a little bit more. So I normally ask if there's any particular media that you're sort of watching or listening to or reading that you're particularly enjoying at the moment.
Kartik:
At the moment, no. But right now, I'm in a very happy place, so I just feel everything is proceeding in a good manner. But yeah, I do sort of have this. I have a huge collection of songs that I listen to, and sometimes I just put one song on loop and keep listening to it over and over again. I get bored and move to the next one. So sometimes my...
Emily:
My partner does that!!!
Kartik:
Oh, OK. And I also do this when I'm running especially long distances. So just what does Song get into rhythm and keep running and keep listening to the song and just forget yourself,
Emily:
Damn! Because you mentioned in the last episode you're in a book club and I am too. And I've actually gotten some book recommendations from past podcast guests that I've suggested to our book club. So I was hoping you might have a good recommendation for me
Kartik:
At the moment. Unfortunately, I don't have, because here it's taking a long time to finish my work.
Emily:
I understand.
Kartik:
I hope I will get back on what's the reading?
Emily:
Yeah, and I definitely understand I had a lot of trouble rating during our lockdowns last year. So, definitely understandable. What about who you're closest to and why?
Kartik:
Oh, that's an interesting question. I guess the closest to is my mom, because we just have this incredible conversation on just about everything. And she's more of my friend and I've learned a lot from her. She's my inspiration, but she's also my go to person for just about everything. And I'm single at the moment, so my mom is my huge source of inspiration, but I also have my brother with whom I fight a lot. So my colleagues are also incredible. So at the moment, I have my family, my source of strength, my mom, my dad, my brother and of course, in my lab. I have some fantastic friends and a good mentor. So I'm happy with my support system.
Emily:
That's so good to hear. And you did mention in the last episode that your mom had provided you a lot of emotional support when you were going through a difficult time during your PhD. So it does sound like she's been a fantastic support for you over the years.
Kartik:
Right, right. She has actually experienced a few negative episodes herself, and she was quite young, so she actually guided me very nicely. And the emotional support that she was able to give me was just fantastic. If not for her, I don't know what I would have done.
Emily:
It's yeah, I find it so helpful when we go to people that are able to share their own experiences of difficulty with us, and they're comfortable being vulnerable around that. I feel like it's so incredibly helpful. I think. I don't know. It seems to me that a lot of the generations before us are less comfortable about sharing those kinds of messages, so, you know, hopefully that'll shift in the future. But I'm happy to hear that, you know, your mom does that for you.
Kartik:
And it also depends on the type of relationship that we have with different people. Some friends, they'll be able to help us out with one particular aspect that we're struggling with. Some friends are just fun to hang out with some friends. They are more like a mentor and you have this different sort of things that you learn from different personalities. I have actually been a people friendly person, so it has been easy for me to just mingle along and get along well with everyone. But I also understand some people who are not really comfortable opening up themselves to others and irrespective of what type of personality you are. I feel if you approach someone with good intentions, with good behavior, I think that should do the trick.
Emily:
Yeah, it's so true. We get different things from different people. I used to expect to try to get everything from a, you know, particular people, and I just learned, you know, like, Wow, you can't really expect that and you know, that's fine. Yeah. So I did want to do a social media shout out at the start of this episode as well. If anything, Kartik shares today resonates with you. You can get in touch with him on Twitter @KartiksAiyer and also through his science blog. And I'll put an episode for that in the link description, as always. So as we've sort of alluded to, we did talk about some difficult, you know, relationships with faculty during your PhD and you've now reached your postdoc and you're in quite a positive environment. Some of what you said before recording was that you gradually overcame some of these challenges by opening up to family and friends. You compartmentalized your work and you shifted your attitude. You also indicated that you started to prioritize your mental in your physical health, and you suggested not to equate your worth with your research, success or failure. Try to find support. Celebrate your wins and encourage each other. So a lot of really positive messages I feel in there. And I don't think we'll be able to cover all of them, but I would love to talk about some of these supports that you've found for yourself.
Kartik:
Yeah. So the first thing that I realized is within a lab, if the supervisor helps the students be the best versions of themselves, that's going to be incredibly positive and that's going to set a very good vibe for within the lab instead of trying to make the students work for him and accomplish his personal goals. I think the attitude must shift from what can I do to ensure that the student? Gets all possible help and support so that he can be the best version of himself so that he can actually focus on his interest. He can be a very vital person in that deal with that shift in approach. It's half the problem is overcome. Another thing that I observed in some very positive labs, I think Prof. Jen Heemstra... She's an inspiration on Twitter and I think she's a Twitter superstar, and a lot of her messages resonate well with everyone.
Emily:
Me too.
Kartik:
So that sort of culture where we're just sort of helping each other, getting into a healthy discussions about how best to improve our goals, how best to improve professionally, how best to improve personally, this sort of atmosphere where everyone is kind of a support system to each other. It's very important to have such a lab, and I've seen that such labs, which emphasize mental health, which emphasize a healthy work life balance. Invariably, such labs bring out the best and they are the most productive labs. So that's what has been my experience, and that's what I've been getting from my postdoc mentor who's just incredible.
Emily:
Yeah, I it's an interesting point about shifting from trying to force graduate students to meet the goals of the the lab head. Yeah, yeah. It's I don't know exactly how that would shift, but I I do feel that and even with, you know, in my personal environment, I feel like I have quite a good relationship with my PhD supervisors. But at the same time, I know that, you know, they have certain projects that need to be moved forward so that they can try to, you know, fulfill the goals where they have already received funding and also to write their grants that they want to write to receive future funding. And it definitely has at times been a little bit challenging because I have observed things in my research that I haven't necessarily felt like I could follow up on because they moved away from the initial plans for the research and didn't necessarily continue to align with the goals of the lab heads. And so I. Can understand, yeah, how that can be.
Kartik:
So this is where the training comes in of what if we train the students to just adapt to actually value their ideas? And there are a lot of graduate students who come up with incredible ideas. And even if your project changes, even if you are able, even if you have to shift your goals, let us, for example, to say to work towards completing the project goals, which if you value their ideas, if you just have a meeting with everyone and then discuss and decide on the best possible way that everyone can move forward together, that itself will encourage the students that it is possible to fulfill your personal goals. It is also possible to fulfill the goals of the pie, and it's possible for everyone to gain while doing so. So having an open, honest discussion where everyone's feedback is valued, everyone's feedback is given importance and they set a clear path moving forward. That is very important.
Emily:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think it can be really difficult. As you know, a junior researcher, a graduate student, when you have an idea to feel confident enough to bring it up. And if you do get to that point and bring it up and then it gets dismissed, like your case critique, like it's very difficult to find it within ourselves, I think to push back against that and sort of try again and have enough confidence in ourselves to really, you know, push for our ideas to be heard and for them to be valued, I guess potentially because of that power structure. Do you have that experience in your postdoc lab now where if you have an idea, the supervisors will actually take the time to sit down with you and discuss it with you or with the lab and try to work out how to best move forward for everyone? Or do you feel like that's something that needs to be? That is a little bit difficult to implement in the current, you know, sort of publishing environment or something that we need to sort of move towards, like, where are you sort of at with that?
Kartik:
Yeah. So these are not really easy. There's no straightforward answer to some of the questions, but from what has been my experience in postdoc is my postdoc mentor gives a lot of freedom and flexibility to me to design my own projects. But at the same time, I'm also involved with some of her projects as well. So I'll be working towards accomplishing the goals of some of her projects. And what we do is we just sit down and have a long chat about how best we are going to achieve these objectives. What's the priority at the moment and how what are we going to divide the time and ensure that all the goals are going to get fulfilled? Definitely. She has given me a lot of independents to come up with my own project, but at the same time, I also try to help her with her projects as well. So it has been a very healthy relationship where we understand each other, where we help and support each other and. But in these sort of situations, you also need to compromise a little bit based on what is practical to do at the moment, for sure. A lot of people will encounter failure because that's natural research, because no project goes exactly the way that we plan. And there's a lot of setbacks, sometimes unexpected setbacks. But it's sort of important to just have a chat about how to overcome these obstacles. What are the lessons learned and how can we innovate or improvise so that we get the best out of our cat?
Emily:
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree.
Kartik:
I'm actually, I'm actually a big fan of my current post-doc mentor, but...
Emily:
I couldn't tell all!
Kartik:
Yeah, because the way we have our discussions, I just love going to our office and just chatting about everything. So this this is where the mentoring aspect kicks in. Even though you want your students to do something the way you communicate, the resources that you give and the freedom that you give, that's going to actually empower them instead of just saying, Hey, this is my project, I want to work on it and finish this. What if the supervisor actually says, I'll give you the best possible support, I'll give you the resources and I'll give you a lot of freedom. So you are free to come up with your own ideas and then we'll discuss best how to achieve these goals. If the attitude shifts slightly towards this approach, then I'm sure it's not going to cause some major issue, even if your project needs to be changed or even if you're encountering failure, because there are a lot of lessons that can actually be learned from failure. Provided we have an open mind. Hmm.
Emily:
Hmm. Yeah. So that does kind of bring us it's nice little Segway to talking about mentoring, and I know that's one of the areas that you feel quite strongly about and an area that you think will help to support early researchers in doing well. So what does a good mentor look like to you?
Kartik:
So this is my perspective, a good Minter cares about you personally and professionally, he ensures that you develop in your field, you become good in your field. But at the same time, he's also there as a friend in case you want to discuss anything about it. A good mentor actually cares about your well-being. He's open and the person is honest with you. So some of these things before there are a lot of different personalities. That's fine. But the important thing to remember is that the student needs support from the mental and emotional. Financial and psychological support is very important. If the mental health the student will be the best version of themselves, I think, then the job is done.
Emily:
Yeah. So I think it's probably important to acknowledge as well like that you don't necessarily have to get this from your direct supervisor. I know, you know, a lot of people will use their supervisor for sort of technical and knowledge support around their research and then go externally for a mentor, whether that's through sort of an institute or university mentoring program or it's it's an industry mentoring program or if the mentor just kind of if that mental mentee relationship kind of develops organically and naturally. So there are, I think, lots of different places you can get that from, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from your direct supervisor,
Kartik:
But actually even your colleagues, even your students who are in the same program that you even they can be mentors because anyone who is able to mentor someone is a mentor. You did not have that straightforward structure where he has to be a faculty or, let's say, an administrator. Anyone who's actually able to help you can be your mentor. And I don't know. I just I remember one incident. I was just sitting on a flight and there was this person next to me. I had no clue who really was. It was a stranger. And but somehow we just struck up a good conversation and it was sort of so beautiful. We talked a lot about academia and I learned many valuable things from him. And so there's no strict definition that about a mentor, anyone who actually helps you in any manner, in any problem or in any situation. He can be a mentor. That person can be a mentor. In academia, you need to have a support system so it can be some other faculty. It can be your lab mates. It can be someone within academia, but not exactly in your lab. So there are a lot of people who actually understand what you can understand, what you're going through and can provide you with the support that you need. Some regulations do develop organically and they become very good. They mature into very healthy relationships. But it's also important to have, apart from the supervisor, a set of people to whom you can go with their problems, to whom you can just speak your mind out without any fear, without any inhibition. And that's very important.
Emily:
Yeah. So it sort of seems like you can have a mentor relationship that's even just a once off like that might get really good advice from someone that you just met in a chance meeting like that. And I think the other thing is that you can have different mentors for different things. So, you know, if I want someone to help me manage perfectionism, that makes my work quite difficult for me and can cause a lot of stress for me, then I can have a mentor that helps me with that. If I want one, that's going to help me, you know, move more into research within the mental health space rather than the biomedical type two diabetes space that I'm in at the moment, then that could be a different type of mentor. So it doesn't just have to be one. And I think the other thing I've learned is that your needs will shift over time. So I've let go of mentoring relationships that don't really function anymore. And that was just a natural progression in the same way as with any relationship that sometimes it's working for both people and sometimes it's not. And that's OK. Yeah. So yeah, a lot that we could discuss about mentoring, but I think so you mentioned this support system, and I think in the last episode, you mentioned that you had developed something after this experience that you had with this particular faculty member and it was a system of support that really, really helped you. And so was that with with friends or with other researchers within academia? Or, you know, how did you start that? What does it look like?
Kartik:
So it was a very long healing process, and it came from different people at different points of. My immediate support system was my family. And as I've mentioned before, but then once I completed my break, once I got back to the university, then it was more of my some of my close friends who are working with other labs and they sort of understood what I was going through and they provided me some kind of emotional support to help me overcome my depression. And I never really attended a professional counseling or professional therapy, though that could have also helped a lot. But what I decided to do was I decided to shut out the negativity and try to focus on my strengths. So I had this incredible network of two or three friends who were with me all the time, and we decided no matter what, we're just going to focus on, our strengths are going to shut out. The past is the past. We're not going to go back there. We're not going to keep replaying those incidents in our minds and we are going to just move forward in a healthy sort of way. We're going to have our hope to have some fun. We're going to get some creativity back in our lives and then slowly, bit by bit, the healing started. It was not easy because when you sort of go through a traumatic experience, sometimes you just get angry remembering those incidents, and it was definitely not as easy as I'm making it sound right now. But eventually there comes a point where you have to move forward and not look back on unpleasant experiences because if you are trying to just replay them in your mind, they're not going to go anywhere.
Kartik:
So what I did was the help of some of my friends and some of my family. I just devised the schedule for my day. Like, for example, once I get up, I'll go for my running because that gives me peace, that gives me strength. And that also makes me realize that I can complete my goals if I just focus on the thing that's tired of me. And then I sort of I love to do yoga and meditation, and I just cannot tell how the positive impact. It had a lot of positive impact. I was not able to do it every day, of course, because there are still days when I was just feeling very sad and they just couldn't get up from bed. But then just bit by bit, just doing small tasks you actually have made just sometimes. Just if I didn't feel like doing anything, I would just hang out with my friends and have a coffee and go and just have a cake and just make myself happy. Sometimes I'll just take a break. Listen to some songs and try to get myself back into a positive frame. And once I'm in a positive frame of mind, I used to focus on my work and that actually helped me to do well. I, though I didn't work for long stretches of periods. I just focused on short, concentrated periods of time where I was able to do my best, even if it is just for an hour or two. I was able to devote my complete attention to focusing on the work at hand, and that sort of helped me to recover and get back on track. Hmm.
Emily:
Yeah. So it seems like, yeah, so you had some support from family and friends and you, you know, worked out some of these routines that sort of helped to energize you and make you feel like you were looking after yourself and and try to shift you into more of a positive mindset so that you weren't, you know, replaying those events over and over and over in your mind. How do you because, you know, I know those thoughts can be quite intrusive, did you? Was that very difficult? I mean, I know the answer is yes, but how do you how do you how do you stop that from replaying?
Kartik:
So first, I accepted this is my personal experience. I accepted that it's not always going to be possible to stop them. And they are going to be periods where they may. You are going to be overwhelmed with the negativity is going to make you angry where you're going to look back at that experience and say, Get angry about it and you are you. We have to accept that healing is not just a smooth way where just because it's in a very smooth manner, sometimes you have these dark episodes where your mind is not at ease. But at the same time, I put conscious effort to reduce the time I spent brooding over the past. Now I'm at a place where I don't really get affected. What what's happened with me in the past, and I just focus on my strengths because I see it was more of a weakness from the other person, the person who abused me was more of this weakness and not my weakness. So the problem was not really with me. I've not indulged in any behavior that can cause hurt or that is damaging to anyone. And I take peace in that fact. It was still a very difficult journey, but as I've said, I've tried to reduce the time I've spent brooding and I've tried to experience rather than focus on the negativity. Just focus on my strength. If my strength is just to go for a run, go for a run.
Kartik:
If my strength is just too sometimes is just hanging out my friends and having a cake and having some drinks. That's it. Just do that and be happy. Just forget it and then try to do what makes you happy if it's reading a book. If it's running, if it's just listening to some music, just do that. And once you're in a peaceful state of mind, then focus on your work. This is where the yoga helped me a lot. Meditation and yoga and I've actually taken some classes, professional classes on yoga and meditation, and they actually sort of calmed my mind and it was just a bad chapter in my life. And there's no indication of what I am. It's important to remember. And one thing I would like to stress many students, they face failure and they see it as a reflection of themselves. No way. The failures that you experience in your professional life are in no way, and even in personal life, they're in no way a reflection of your character. Your character is much, much more stronger than the failures that you experience. And this is just sort of thing that sometimes comes with experience. But I was also lucky to have some good friends and family, and eventually, now when I look back, I'm able to share these experiences freely without any sort of inhibition.
Emily:
Yeah, it's such great advice. And you know, I felt like you were directly speaking to my soul just then because that's something, you know, I have really struggled with that I think a lot of academics struggle with to separate themselves and their self-worth from their work where we do face a lot of failure. So I thank you for that message. Thank you for being here. I kind of poured my heart out at the beginning of episode 19, acknowledging how difficult it is for me to value my own work and what it's worth, if you heard that,
Emily:
You'll notice the podcast now has a donations page. I'll personally acknowledge support is the first episode of every month. This will never be a paid podcast. It's too important to me that it's accessible, but if you find value in these episodes, have some spare change and feel like you'd like to contribute to running costs. I'd sincerely appreciate you buying me a coffee. Support the podcast app. Buy me a coffee. Com Forward slash VOA podcast. After all, I'm a PhD student on a budget producing a podcast on the side.
Emily:
It does sound like, yeah, so they are some examples of how you are sort of putting your mental and physical health first and sort of trying to use that to shift your attitude. I guess I have a question around continuing to work during that time because I know in the last episode you said that you sort of did that and you kind of can't believe you did that and you're not quite sure how you did that. And I'm just thinking, if there's anyone that's kind of in that place right now, I. From other conversations that I've had and other experiences that I've had, I know that when your your mind is in a difficult place and it. Stops you from being able to perform in the ways that you would like to, whether that's with work or with life or both. I know that can make people feel very guilty and very ashamed, and that can then fade into that cycle and make you feel even worse and then stop you even more from being able to do the work. So if there's someone that's kind of in that place right now and is potentially feeling guilty because they can't do as many hours as they would like to do or, you know, they feel like they're not being able to be as effective with their research as they would like to be. What would you say to that person from your experience?
Kartik:
So firstly, I would say to the person, believe in themselves, to believe in themselves because the circumstances that they face don't define them. The difficulties that they face, the failures that they encounter don't define them. The every human being is a beautiful person. And what is important is every human being has his or her own strength. They are. They have a beautiful mind. They have a beautiful heart. And it's important to take if you're feeling in a dark place mentally, if your something is not going well in your life. Just try to just stay away from any negative thing that is influencing your life. It may not always be possible. It may not always be easy to do that, but it is essential to focus on the mental and physical health. Because of health is lost, everything is lost. You can't do anything without mental and physical health. So in case it is possible, the person can actually take a break and try to figure out what is best for them in terms of just being happy. It can be any small thing. Like I said, it doesn't have to be something big. It can be just a small thing, like just taking a nap, listening to some song or just going on a walk, enjoying nature. These sorts of things actually come to mind. And it is important to take rest and not do any work at that point of time because we are not going to be able to give our best.
Kartik:
And of course, having a support system helps a lot. In my case, my mother and some of my friends, my family and my friends helped a lot. So in case there are supportive people around, you just speak to them and open up. Sometimes just opening up our troubles to a trusted person helps a lot, though it's always not possible to get that kind of trust. It takes a long time to build trust with someone, but I think these are this is where academia needs to improve. This is where I feel academia needs to provide more mental health resources so that if they feel a student is facing a problem, they should be able to provide the student with the support and the required to ensure that the student is back on track. This is where mentoring kicks in. This is where this is, where a healthy mentor recognizes. If the mentor is just bothered about research, then it's not going to be very easy. It's going to be very difficult. So this is where I have a big problem with academia. They're they're not really focused on apart from productivity. They don't really academia doesn't really bother about much. So this is my main problem.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree. And I do want to talk about some of these potential solutions in kind of encouraging a supportive environment within academia in a minute. Just one final question, I guess. Before we moved to that, how long did you take off in when you took your break and and how did you sort of decide how long felt appropriate for you?
Kartik:
So I took a break for one month, so for a period of one month, I was completely I just switched off my academic activities, duties and I just focused on being at home. I just sort of forgot everything about my state by that point of time. So eventually, when I came back, I was in a much healthier space to resume back my work. So again, it depends from person to person how long they take. There's no fixed answer to this. It also depends on the specific situation the person finds themselves in. So for me, it was just one month, but after that, not that I was working continuously. I was just working in short periods of time, short bursts of time and then take a long break. So even after I came back from a break, I just used to work for a very short period of time. So I was just half an hour. But and I used to take a long break after that to recharge myself. So it just it does take time for you to get back on track. But it is important to remember that when your body and mind are feeling you should all of them and not interfere with that. Mm-hmm.
Emily:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I know it will be different for every person, but I think that's so important to kind of acknowledge, you know, how to best make use of that time in terms of what's going to benefit you the most and benefit your health the most. And then it was also interesting for you to share how you approached your work when you did go back to it, because I think that's something else that's really important to share. So in terms of some of the potential solutions I know within your blog post, you and we have touched on mentors today. But in your blog post, you also mentioned that it would be great to have role models of healthy lifestyles to have training, which I think is something that's come up during our discussions as well. Rewarding good mentoring. Yeah. Allowing feedback on mentoring from, you know, students or staff. If there's perhaps a central place where people can indicate, you know, how well this person was able to support them and improved avenues for addressing bullying and harassment. Correct. So again, lots of different areas for potential solutions, yeah, do you have some first thoughts on that before I ask any sort of direct question?
Kartik:
Yeah. Yeah, there are. Actually, these are some of the policies from an institutional level that needs to be considered. If you just go to social media, Twitter. You just see there are lots and lots of advisors for grad students. So where everyone says this is how grad students must be doing, this is supposed to be doing the research. Masters and students should be doing their research. But there is no threat. There is no message for the university. So this is where the culture needs to change because I think receiving feedback is important. The mentor needs to receive feedback about his mentoring state and delivering the feedback is also important the way you deliver the feedback. It should not be spiteful. It should not be done just to criticize someone. It should actually be a healthy discussion where there are boundaries and you should respect them. It should also be genuine from your end so that you are offering your best advice on how to improve the relationship forward. So trust is again a very crucial ingredient. And regarding mentoring, they feel actually that is the real metrics that has value, not the impact factor or index. They are all secondary. The main thing the main metrics are how happy the lab is, how happy those lab mates are, how happy the group is and are they supporting each other? Are they helping out each other? It's just like a family. Is this like a professional family sometimes? In many labs, you see healthy labs. They have this respect for each other. They just do a lot of things which are fun together. They just hang out outside the lab and do a lot of fun stuff. So it's important to have this kind of thing where people feel comfortable being their genuine self and they are not forced to change their genes themselves just to fit in with the lab. So some of this comes to training, but some of this also comes with experience. Some of this comes with having respect for people. So these are some of the things that need to be done.
Emily:
Hmm. And again, I feel so strongly about that, about being able to bring our genuine selves to our research environments. I feel like that's yeah, that's definitely not something I feel I have been able to do in the past and. Ah, it would just benefit so many people, but it's such a good point that that there's all this advice for grad students and master's students and undergrads and postdocs. But like, I don't think I've ever seen an article about what a supervisor should be doing. Yeah. Like what a university should be doing. And I, I mean, I'm sure that surely there's something out there. I've personally not seen it. I think you've personally not seen it. But yeah, it's definitely such a good point. And it actually made me think, you know about this, you know, idea of giving feedback to mentors. I mean, when I've completed full time work positions in the past, it's very common in Australia. I'm sure it is in other countries as well to do an exit interview when you decide to leave that position. And that's kind of talking about, you know, what did you like about the role? What did you dislike about the role? Is there anything we could have done to help retain you within this role, et cetera, et cetera? It's so weird that that doesn't happen at the end of a PhD or the end of a master's program to say Why did this individual decide not to pursue academia or why did they decide to change research group that would be considered valuable.
Kartik:
Huge problem. I have a huge problem with academia in this because they don't value people that sort of what I said they value. The only thing that academia values is your productivity in terms of papers, grants and all these sorts of things. But nobody really values the health and well-being of students because they know if students leave there, keep going to get, they're going to get the current set of students sleep. They're going to get the next set of students to replace them. So that way, they are assured of something which they are short of supply of students, grad students, undergrads, postdocs that are short of a constant supply of students. So maybe that's why they're not putting effort into improving the health and wellbeing of students. But there are some incredible mentors within academia. Professor Jennings is, of course, a shining example, but there are many mentors all over in different countries who actually care about their mentees, and they actually stay in touch after they are no longer in the lab. So from an institutional point of view, a lot more needs to be done to ensure that the health and well-being of students is the priority. Hmm.
Emily:
So like I sort of said at the start, there was a lot that we could potentially cover in this episode, and I'm just a little bit wary of time. So I think if I was going to ask you about anything else in in any detail, it would probably be based on your own experience. You know how you feel that avenues for addressing bullying and harassment could be improved within universities and research institutions? I know it's not a simple question at all, but I would be interested to know what your thoughts are on that from your experience.
Kartik:
The first thing of which I feel is if the university receives a complaint, it should be taken seriously and it should not be dispensed, especially if it's against a professor or somebody who the institution feels is indispensable. Because at the end of the day, every single person who is in that university is important and all of them are doing their best to the institution. So if there is a complaint, it should be handled seriously and. Well, this is a very complex question, and there's a lot to it then what we're discussing at the moment, but the first thing starts with acknowledging that the students can be bullied. The first thing starts with just listening to them and understanding that they do have emotional needs. They do need to be shown respect. And they do need to be treated the way that you expect. Yourselves to be treated. So it comes from a place of respect. It comes from actually understanding and responding to their needs. And it comes from trust, so it should not in many instances, the person who complains, they're often blamed and they're often made to feel bad about it. But there's nothing to feel bad about if you've actually been abused before actually being a witness to something which which which was very traumatic for you. So the university should actually care about their students, and that is the first step.
Emily:
Yeah, absolutely. And I, well, I always get to this point of the podcast interviews, and I'm like, there's so much more that we could talk about. But I I think maybe we could talk at another time, and if we end up getting some more of our engagement up and going with voices of academia and give some of our guests and our our blog authors the opportunity to answer sort of live questions with some of our audience. You know, if we get that up and going, perhaps you can talk a little bit more about some of these things because I think some other things that you raised in terms of having, you know, role models of healthy lifestyle training, rewarding good mentoring that all such key points that I really, really agree with and we would love to talk more about. I think the final question that I would like to use to tie up this episode is, again, you know, because of your personal experience and because of the topics that we have been focusing on for these two episodes. If there is. A student or a staff member within academia at the moment that's listening to this, and they. I have tried to go through the process of filing a complaint because of an abusive environment, and they have been dismissed or. You know, or haven't really received the outcome that they feel is appropriate. What would you say to that person?
Kartik:
Oh, it's such a difficult question to answer.
Emily:
I know, I'm sorry.
Kartik:
Yeah, yeah. No, but it's important to discuss this. Don't give up. Don't get intimidated. If you feel you have done nothing wrong, you should stand your ground and do it. It's not going to be easy. You should actually make them realize that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated, even though it might have come from a person with a lot of power. It's not OK, it's definitely not OK to just tolerate it and just let it go by. I think the person needs to convey this message, and he needs to convey this strongly so that the university actually acknowledges that there is a problem.
Emily:
Yeah. So, yeah, I...
Kartik:
It's not an easy question to answer, it's it's definitely not an easy question. But I think they're slowly, slowly people are beginning to talk about these sort of issues and this sort of issue. It needs to be addressed by the institutions and they should have firm policies in place. It's more of their responsibility to ensure that they hear they give a fair and balanced hearing and they take the correct course of action. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Emily:
Definitely. And yeah, I know it's it's a difficult question. I was just interested to know your thoughts on it. But certainly it's it's a complex area, and I don't I would like many questions.
Kartik:
Even I am forgetting anything myself, and I'm happy to receive support from some people. I have a fantastic mentor right now. I have very good lab mates and I have a family which really cares about me, so I'm really happy that we had at this point of time. But I also feel I think everyone should just discuss these sort of issues with each other. Maybe they can schedule meetings, or maybe they can take some students as to what they would like as to what changes they would like to see and if they can take healthy feedback from students and try to implement them. That's going to actually make a difference.
Emily:
Hmm. Yeah, and you know, there's yeah, there's no clear answer. I think what all of us are trying to do is try to generate ideas about how to prevent some of this from happening and how to put different strategies in place for how to manage some of these situations. But I guess voices of academia specifically is more about. Showing that it's not just you that might be impacted by some of these difficult circumstances and that for some people talking about it. As difficult as that can be, can be quite cathartic and can help to build support around themselves. Yes. And so I yeah, again, I just want to thank you for opening up and do you have any final thoughts to take before we wind up this episode?
Kartik:
Actually, a huge congratulations to you and your entire team. I'm really, really happy to have to get an opportunity to come and speak on your platform. I'm really happy to share my story and I think you're doing an incredible job and I just wish you the best for the future.
Emily:
Thank you! Thank you so much. And I yeah, I wish you the best with your marathon that's coming up. I cannot imagine running forty kilometres. I could never do it. I struggle to run five. So best of luck with that. And yeah, again, thank you for sharing and I'd love to keep in contact with you. I know we follow each other on Twitter, so I'm sure we'll see each other around on the Twitterverse. Just a final reminder for anyone that's listening if you'd like to get in touch with Kartik. He's available on Twitter @ KartiksAiyer and also through his science blog, and there'll be a link for that in the episode description. So that brings us close to the end of today's episode of Voices of Academia to you listening. Thank you for choosing to share some of your time with us. I know there are a lot of different avenues kind of vying for attention in our digital connected world. So I and I'm sure our podcast guests are very grateful that you choose to spend some of your time listening to these stories. I'd love to know what part of Kartik's story spoke to you if you feel comfortable. Let me know on Twitter at E King underscore I for science. Otherwise, I look forward to having you with me again in a couple of weeks. We'll hear from battles set up at al-Ani about anxiety disorder and being an international student. Before now. Before you go,
Emily:
We have some support resources and information for how you can share your own story. If this episode brought anything up for you, there are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.CheckPointOrg.com/global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely Voices of Academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci, for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of Academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form, with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories? Please leave a review. Subscribe, tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student ex-academic or any other type of researcher, follow @AcademicVoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com for details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.
Automatically convert your mp3 files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.
Sonix has many features that you'd love including upload many different filetypes, powerful integrations and APIs, secure transcription and file storage, transcribe multiple languages, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.