Ep20_A Toxic Power Dynamic_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3
Ep20_A Toxic Power Dynamic_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep20_A Toxic Power Dynamic_Dr. Kartik Aiyer.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey, there. A quick warning before we start today's episode touches on academic bullying and abuse. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support, if you need it. Today we travel to India to meet Dr Kartik Aiyer, a postdoc, in a lecture microbiology at the Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi. He works on a lecture Chemically active bacteria. During our discussion, Kartik opened up about the impact of poor faculty relationship during his PhD had on his mental health.
Kartik:
He was good in spirit, no doubt about it, but some aspects of this behavior were really bothering me. He used to dominate a lot. If I came up with some idea that I expressed, sometimes he'll just not encourage me or to just dismiss it. And the worst thing was my feedback didn't count for anything. Whenever I gave any feedback, it was just dismissed and used to speak in a very disparaging tone, which was actually getting on my nerves. But somehow I just put up with it and things came to a head one day when I just tried to explain to him that we can have a better relationship that we can actually sit and discuss in a better way as to how we want our mentoring relationship to move forward. And for some reason, he got extremely angry and he was just yelling at me at the top of his voice, and that was very shocking for me.
Emily:
Also, I can't believe we made it to episode 20. That's pretty crazy. Thank you for being here. I kind of poured my heart out at the beginning of episode 19, acknowledging how difficult it is for me to value my own work and what it's worth, if you heard that. You noted the podcast now has a donations page. Thank you to Dr Zoë Ayers for being our first contributor. I'll personally acknowledge supporters the first episode of every month. This will never be a paid podcast. It's too important to me that it's accessible, but if you find value in these episodes, have some spare change. I'd feel like you'd like to contribute to running costs. I'd sincerely appreciate you buying me a coffee. Support the podcast app BuyMeACoffee.com /VOAPodcast. After all, I'm a PhD student on a budget producing a podcast on the side. Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. It's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this has lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone.
Emily:
Let's get into it.
Emily:
Hi, Kartik, welcome to the podcast.
Kartik:
Thank you Emily. I'm really glad to be here.
Emily:
I'm so happy to have you here. So we actually met because you were one of the first people to come forward and indicate your interest in being on the podcast back when Voices of Academia announced that we were going to launch this way back in October of 2020. So I'm just finally working through the backlog of all the amazing researchers that have, you know, indicated their willingness to come forward and speak up about their own experience. So thank you for your patience. And also, I know you've written a blog post previously for Voices of Academia. So for the listeners, Kartik wrote a blog post about empowering early career researchers and improving culture and academia. It was published back in April of this year, so April 2021, and I'll put a link in the episode description. But as a quick sort of summary, he wrote about some of the challenges of the research process, why early career researchers feel overwhelmed and included a reference to bullying culture within academia. And he also wrote about some of the potential solutions to alleviating some of these problems within our industry. And he touched on some of his personal experience, which it's so brave that you know, people are choosing to speak out about some of these issues.
Emily:
I'm very fortunate that I've personally never, you know, directly experienced bullying within academia, but I'm well aware that it happens and that I am very fortunate that this hasn't happened to me, and I think it's so important to to speak out. You know, if you feel comfortable, obviously. So, Kartik wrote about how bullying can be quite difficult to address, and it can lead to mental ill health and reduced productivity, which can then, you know, if people that are impacted by that progress within the academic structure can then propagate that same behavior again to people that they end up managing. And it can kind of just end up being this negative cycle, which when I was reading through that just before this interview while I was doing my preparation, it just... I just... It's just heartbreaking to to think that, that happens and you know that it is difficult to address and that it does become this cycle. So, you know, I think it's it's a really important topic to discuss, and I'm really grateful to you for coming forward and being willing to talk about some of this today.
Kartik:
Thanks a lot for the wonderful introduction. I actually know about this program through social media. I had just about no clue that such a platform even exists where researchers can come forward to share their stories and actually try to, not just share their experiences, but also suggest ways and practical measures of improving the culture in academia. It makes sense to have such a platform. It takes a lot of courage to even start implementing something like this. And I've seen the impact it has had over people, and I feel this is one of the most widely followed blogs, at least in academia. So hats off to you, to Zoë and Marissa and the rest of your team. And thanks for having me here.
Emily:
You just gave me goose bumps again. Stop doing that. Thank you. Yeah. And you know, I think it is really important that it's not just about lived experiences, but also how we can shift the culture. And I'm hoping that with more and more of these stories and suggestions for solutions coming forward, we will be able to, you know, slowly but surely shift some of the culture and implement some of these changes in combination with some of the other really amazing mental health advocacy, you know, Twitter feeds and organizations that are out there as well. There's a big community of us, I think, now within academic mental health. And I think it's growing day by day, which is it's really promising and and quite exciting.
Kartik:
Yes, I've actually been following the blog. I actually read every single blog, which is published every week where I am actually blown over by the response, by these suggestions, by the experiences and the impact that the researchers can actually have. They'll come up with quite a few brilliant suggestions, which, if implemented, can definitely change the culture and make it a better place. So I really think such a platform is important to have.
Emily:
Thanks, Kartik. So today it'll be a little bit of a follow up to that piece, but we'll speak about, you know, some different aspects as well. With a focus on speaking about relationships within the academic faculty and how they can impact mental health. So Kartik, I I like to start now by sort of asking guests why it is that they would like to share their story because as you indicated, you know, it does take a lot of courage to come forward and I think everyone has their different reasons. So what's yours?
Kartik:
I would like to start my story a little more. Way back then graduate school, when I actually I was doing my bachelor's program, I was a good student and I had more difficulty or more problems with anyone, with people, with my studies, and it was going well in master's. The level improves and there's a lot more work. However, I saw that there are some aspects in academia, especially research that could be done better. I put that Masters students were not really given that much of importance, and somehow the culture within academia might use a lot of importance to the metrics, to the applications for grants and all of these things. But they actually don't care about people. And this feeling only increased as I moved on to PhD and be a PhD. Such a huge thing. There are just so many things that are going on. It's a totally new experience by yourself. It's a very challenging degree, to say the least, even for the most talented individuals. However, from what I have observed, academia doesn't really bother a lot about the welfare of its individuals, the main assets in academia are the people, not the instruments, not the labs, not the metrics or not anything else. Every effort should be put in to ensure that these people are able to perform their best, are able to be happy and able to feel safe and are able to do their best.
Kartik:
That is the main purpose of academia and not to publish paper or not to just secure grants. Of course, that is important. That is part of the job. But the main thing is good mentorship, empowering the early career researchers so that they can do well. And this is where real science happens. I've seen a lot of professors who are good scientists but are not good mentors. There's a lot of difference being being a good scientist and being a good mentor. To be a good scientist, you just need to know your subject to think well, which many people can do. But to actually care about people to give up or to maintain a healthy relationship with your mentees, to learn from them, to empower them to actually care and support for them. That takes training and that is lacking in academia. But whenever any professor is hired, they only look at the research work and those sort of things. They're not really looking into the mentorship abilities that he has or any training that he has in these sort of areas. And this actually has a lot of impact. There are quite a few good mentors out there who are doing their best for their students. But again, that's a personal kind of thing. It's not generalized or I think there's no formal training in place in many places. And slowly, people are realizing that that needs to change.
Emily:
Yeah. And I absolutely agree with you in terms of academia being not really being people focused. And that's something that really frustrates me because as you said, you know, like, we're the ones that actually do the work. So it would make you know and academia is so focused on productivity, but you know, people are so important to productivity. So if there was some shifts to actually look after us a little bit better, look after our wellbeing. You know, how do we stay motivated? How does each individual stay motivated and how can you harness that?
Kartik:
Yes.
Emily:
It would just have such a huge positive impact on academic well-being, you know, reducing stress levels and actually having the benefit of increasing productivity as well. So it's just to me, it's just a no brainer. It's a huge, huge, huge, huge problem, though, and there are issues at many, many, many levels. So and as some people have acknowledged, academia weirdly moves very slowly in terms of change. So it is going to take time. But yeah, I absolutely agree with you on that point. And mentors is something I also feel very strongly about, but we'll touch on that a little bit more in the next episode when we talk about some of the support systems that you've found and also some of the suggestions that you have for sort of improving academic culture. So I guess, you know, my question was kind of more aimed at why is this so important to you? Like, why do you want to come forward and why do you want to share your experiences and your opinions on this with the rest of the academic world?
Kartik:
Yes. So coming to my experience, I have experienced everything in academia good mentorship, bad good policies, bad policies, bullying. I've suffered a bit of abuse, which was shocking at that time, but I didn't really know how to deal with it or cope with it or payment reported. And I just sort of at one point of time, I was just I had no clue what I was just constantly said, and I was very afraid to even speak out to other people, even my friends and I just sort of suffered silently, which in hindsight is very bad. But at that point of time, I had just no clue how to deal with it. But now that I'm in a relatively better place, I know what kind of impact bullying can have in academia, especially when you lack the power, especially when you are dependent on the people for your contract or for your stipend. So you just sort of many people sort of just put up with it. They put on a brave face, but internally they're devastated. And having experienced something like this, I feel it's very important for me to share my story so that we at least know what. What are the options available to us and what can be done?
Emily:
Yeah. And thank you again for being willing to come forward, particularly at this time when we are also living through a global pandemic, which which I'll ask you about briefly in a minute, but just a bit of a social media shout out. So if anything, you sort of talk about today resonates with any of our listeners. Where can they find you online?
Kartik:
So they can. I'm available on Twitter. So they can follow me on Twitter. I don't use other social media platforms, but I'm quite active on Twitter.
Emily:
It's too overwhelming if you try to keep up with all of them. Yeah. So Kartik's Twitter handle is @KartiksAiyer. And I'll put a link to that in the episode description, and he also writes a science blog. So if you'd like to follow some more of his writing on there, you can access that at KaritikSciCom.Blogspot.com/. And again, I'll put a link in the episode description.
Emily:
So, Kartik, I know, you know, we're sort of a little bit further into this interview, I guess, than we would normally be when I ask this question. But I'm interested, you know, in you outside of academia as well, and I think for our listeners to get to know you a little bit too. So how do you like to spend your days off?
Kartik:
Oh, I own a lot of interests outside of academia. Thankfully! I am actually a runner, so I run this sort of half marathons and I'm preparing to run a marathon, which is very difficult.
Emily:
Congratulations! Wow!
Kartik:
Yeah, I've never really done it, but I'm planning to. So that actually motivates me not to give up on a goal to put consistent efforts towards the goal. And actually, it's a stress buster. The joy that you get from just running in the morning and experiencing that runner's high. That is one thing which has actually helped me to get back on track when I was going through a bad patch. And even otherwise, it's a wonderful thing just to maintain your fitness. I also love to read books, not only science books, but also fiction and other literature. I'm part of the book clubs where we just share what books we have read and which inspired us. And I just love to get my hands on just about any book that I can and just read it. So reading is one major thing that I have during the pandemic. Of course, it was not easy to always pursue the hobbies. But in general, I love you. I'm a sports fan. I love to follow up with sports. I love to read and. That's my major interests.
Emily:
I love it, and yeah, it's so important to have, you know, something else outside of academia that keeps us going, and it's such a great point. You know what you said about running and that sort of helping teach you how to set a goal and to reach a goal and to feel what it feels like to achieve that? I think, you know, my partner loves sport as well, and he always talks about the lessons that he's learned from sport. And I mean, I do, too. But the first thing that comes to mind for me is actually puzzles, because when I'm doing a puzzle, it reminds me that I can't work on every single part of a project at the same time. I kind of have to, you know, put certain colors in certain areas, and I'll come back to them later and then I work on one piece at a time. Yeah. And then, you know, if I'm working on one part at a time, eventually that accumulates and I finally finish the whole puzzle. Yeah, and every time I do one, it just it just kind of puts the PhD experience in perspective for me. And I actually carry that knowledge back to the way that I approach my research projects.
Kartik:
And taking a break actually helps. Instead of focusing too much on the puzzle and you're not getting any answers, you just take a short break and get back because you suddenly get a new perspective. Sometimes you can just solve it. And that's similar in academia as well.
Emily:
Yeah, so many life lessons from our hobbies. So listeners do your hobbies. The other question I had was So, so you said you're a postdoc in a lecture microbiology and you're working on a lecture, chemically active bacteria. So I majored in microbiology in my undergrad, but I've never heard of electro microbiology. Could you explain what what that is?
Kartik:
Well, yes. So there are certain bacteria that are capable of generating electricity. The magnitude of electricity is small, but they are capable of generating electricity and they can actually respire on solid electrodes. So it's a kind of a fuel cell, but with microbes, it's a biological fuel cell, lot of microbial fuels where we use certain electrical electrochemical bacteria and after oxidation of a particular substrate, let's say, glucose or acetate or any commonly available fuel, they generate electrons and pass on these electrons to an electrode to generate electricity. So it's sort of a battery, but it's a bio battery.
Emily:
Ok. And what's the benefit to the bacteria to do that? Does that provide energy for their processes?
Kartik:
The bacteria employed this process, called extracellular electron transfer to generate electricity. We breathe oxygen for generation of energy. But the bacteria are anaerobic. So instead of passing the electrons to oxygen, they use an electrode and transfer to electrons to electrode to generate currents. So the main applications of this field are wastewater treatment combined with electricity generation, bioremediation of metal contaminants, biosensors and electro synthesis. Wow.
Emily:
So interesting! I learned so much about different fields of science during this podcast, and our listeners do too.
Kartik:
Yeah!
Emily:
Thank you. So what drew you to that type of research?
Kartik:
Actually, when I had no clue about this topic and one of my friends introduced me to this and I was actually blown over that that actually do something like this. And I decided to take up this field during my PhD. And though my research supervisor was not exactly in the same field, I don't know if it was either very brave or it was, I think, a very foolish decision to just move forward without any just just jump right into it. But I'm happy that I did that and I was very excited. You know, master's level people are just excited to just do something, and I just chose a supervisor was ready to take me at that point of time, and it has been a good journey after that.
Emily:
I'm glad for you. So we will shift gears now. So a little bit more into sort of some of your mental health experiences within academia. But before we do that, I, as I mentioned, I wanted to just ask a little bit about the pandemic because, you know, having a mental health podcast in the middle of a pandemic, I just I feel like I need to ask this question of how you are. And, you know, given the pandemic and everything that's going on, I know you're in India, in Delhi, and I know the pandemic has impacted, you know, every individual and every country in very unique ways. So, you know, if you're comfortable, do you mind sharing sort of how you are given the current circumstances?
Kartik:
Yeah, actually, the pandemic has affected all of us and it did affect me very deeply. I finished my Ph.D. just sometime before a couple of months before the pandemic began. And I was not able to get a job during the pandemic, at least for most of 2020. And even after I got my postdoc position, it took me a very long time to join it and I was not able to support myself financially. So it was a very difficult time for me. However, my supervisor, my postdoc supervisor, was super helpful and she has been given. She has been giving me all the support that I could ask for, and now that I have joined, I'm really happy. I hope the worst of the pandemic is behind us. But again, you can't really be sure when it will affect which individual, so we have to take precautions, but I hope the worst is behind us.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah. I hope so too. And yeah, I'm sorry to hear that you had so much trouble finding work, finishing your day just before the pandemic. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. You know, the uncertainty around that, that particular time. And I guess if anyone has been in that situation and wants to talk to Kartik, you know more about that experience. You know, we've mentioned he's available on Twitter and his Twitter handle will be in the episode description as well. So thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I'm really glad that you have found a supportive post doc supervisor and and feel like you're sort of in a good environment now. Yeah. So, but it wasn't always that way, so we will kind of take a step back sort of back more to your PhD and in the information that you shared with me prior to recording, you said that you struggled quite a lot with handling the stress of a PhD, which I can absolutely relate to all of us can. But it was in an environment where you weren't supported and you said or you acknowledge that while some advice is a brilliant, many of them don't try to understand their students and that can lead to an unhealthy relationship. And so you kind of wanted to focus today on on speaking about poor relationships with academic faculty. So could you take us back? I know you said that your PhD supervisor was OK and this was actually another faculty member that that you had the issues with. Do you mind sharing how you knew that person and you know why it was necessary to work with them?
Kartik:
Yeah. So as I mentioned my supervisor, my trajectory is slightly different from what most do. So my when I chose my topic, I was the first student of my Ph.D. supervisor, and he was not exactly this idea was not working in this area. So but he was quite supportive. He encouraged me to follow my own interests, and I did come up with a few ideas about the PhD, and he was willing to explore that. So it was a kind of new for both of us. It was a new field for both of us and we decided that we'll achieve a certain set of aims that we set for ourselves. So it was new for us, however, just to get better inputs. He introduced me to another faculty who was also working on a similar area, and they just asked me to speak with the faculty just to get more insights into the subject. And I was happy to do that and initially proceeded well, and it was challenging, no doubt, but I didn't really feel I was. I was trying to do my best and somehow I was doing OK. But as you know, research doesn't all this progress in the way of land. There are a lot of setbacks and there are a lot of failures, and you need an open mindset to address these issues. So it was not just about the research. I observed that the faculty with whom I was working, not my supervisor, but the person he had introduced, people he had a sort of a strange personality and he was good in his spirit, no doubt about it.
Kartik:
But some aspects of this behavior were really bothering me in the sense he would just use a very rude tone sometimes, and he used to dominate a lot. If I came up with some idea that I expressed, sometimes he would just not encourage me or to just dismiss it away. I didn't really pay much attention to it at first, but then later, when I sat back and reflected on it, I realized that it was actually affecting me. If you come up with an idea and if it is a bad one, there is a way to actually let the student know without being made to them. But that was not the case when I proposed the idea. Of course, there are a lot of when we are starting out on our journey, we have a lot to learn and we are not experts. So it really matters the kind of mentorship, the kind of advice you receive. And there are a lot of delays with many things, with my papers, with some of the experiments, with proceeding forward and going ahead. And the worst thing was my feedback didn't count for anything. Whenever I gave any feedback, it was just dismissed and used to speak in a very disparaging tone, which was actually getting on my nerves. But somehow it just put up with it and things came to a head one day when I just tried to explain to him that we can have a better relationship that we can actually sit and discuss in a better way as to how we want our mentoring relationship to move forward.
Kartik:
And for some reason, he got extremely angry and he was just yelling at me at the top of his voice, and that was very shocking for me. This was just a couple of inches away from my face, and that was I got the shock of my life. Actually, I get along well with everyone. I have not had issues with anyone, with my teachers, my friends, with my family. I just get along very well with people. But somehow this person, I could notice that the problem was from his side for whatever reasons. I'm not judging him. I'm just maybe he he supports something emotionally, but it's. Along with this three students that way, especially when they're young, when they don't have power and they don't have support. And that broke me at that point of time. I just withdrew into a shell and I just lost all interest. I gave up all my hobbies. I was in a really dark place of my mind mentally, and I just did what I could. It was just plodding along at that point of time. The same, I continued with my experiments. I did. I continued my collaboration also with them. I don't know why I did that, but at that point of time, I was not mentally in a place to understand anything. And after a couple of months, this sort of behavior behavior was repeated again, and once it was in public, you just get it at the top of this voice, and that's not okay.
Kartik:
And that was not for any other reason. I just asked him about a few delays that were happening with my manuscripts, and this is just a normal thing which any student undergoes and they just talk with their supervisors. And it's, it's a very normal thing. But then I just asked about my manuscript to him, but somehow, I don't know what triggered him, but he was just yelling and abusing the kind of language that he used and the kind of treatment that he demonstrated on me. It was very bad and I couldn't really take it after that. It was just a vicious cycle where for the next couple of months, I used to just withdraw to my room, just lock myself in my room and cry a lot. Just no idea of how might be is just going to end, how I'm going to get the degree. I just wanted to do this for myself, but I could not. I spoke with my family and they were very supportive, but they didn't really understand how it didn't work at that point of time, and I'm very thankful to my parents for supporting me. But I had no clue how to proceed forward with my situation. And eventually it became so bad that I decided, that's it. I'm not going to tolerate this any longer. And I actually lodged an official complaint with my university. They appointed an ombudsman and they had a sort of meetings with both of us separately, and I didn't know what came out of that, but at least I didn't feel reassured they actually wanted to avoid the blame rather than solve the situation.
Kartik:
That's what I felt. They did their best. Some of the people in the community were helpful. They at least they gave me a patient here, but nothing came out of it. There was no assurances from them that such sort of behavior will not happen again and then wonder of wonders. After the meetings got the word I came to know from a few other students that the same individual had behaved in a similar way to other people as well. So it was not a problem which I had. It was a problem that he had from this. And I feel the university should be sort of been more strong in dealing with such behavior. But somehow, I think they gave him a warning, but that's about it. Nothing came out of it. I ended my collaboration and my guide was actually supportive at this point of time. But eventually I worked out everything myself and I decided I'm going to take a brief break. I went home for a while and being with my parents was actually the best thing at that point of time, though my mom, she gave me a lot of emotional support and that actually started my healing process. I also understand that it's not always possible to go home and take a break, especially if you're an international student in a different country.
Kartik:
And if you face financial difficulties, it's not always possible. But for me, somehow taking a break did wonders and I ended my collaboration. And just with my great help, I was able to publish papers and finish my Ph.D.. It was challenging, no doubt, but then I realized I was actually lucky in the sense that I was able to take a break. And many students, they are financially not well-off. If they are in a different country, they may actually not have a family or they may be staying alone, in which case it becomes even more difficult. So it is very important to have a support network. And when I look back, I see just there are just so many things that are wrong with the academic power structure that it becomes really difficult. So this was my experience. I'm very happy with whatever. I was able to publish quite a few papers, but that's not my achievement in Ph.D.. My real achievement is to actually sort of form a support network after this experience with. Some of my friends and to actually sit and discuss how we can support each other when we are going through a difficult phase and we actually made up a list of demands. Let us say, and we actually passed it on to our university and at that point of time, they didn't really implement them, but they did have a discussion as to how they will make them much better and much safer. So I'm happy I was able to.
Emily:
Wow. Thank you for sharing, I know that would have been difficult to talk about.
Kartik:
Yeah, yeah. But again, as I said, I feel happy and looking back in hindsight, it's unhappy at the lessons that I gained from that experience.
Emily:
Yeah. And so there are a few things that came up that we'll definitely talk about. I think in the next episode in terms of taking a break and developing that support network because I think that's very important to share. But yeah, it just sounds like, you know, your feedback wasn't valued and your ideas weren't valued, which is demoralizing for anyone. And the fact that you tried to directly address that relationship, like that's such a mature thing to do, and for a PhD student, you know, I don't know your age and I don't need to know, but you know, there would obviously be an age differential. There's a power differential in that relationship. And so to actually come forward and try to address it directly with this person would have taken so much courage. And that was a healthy way to try to approach that situation. So to have it blow up in your face so unexpectedly and to be attacked after trying to address it, you know, in a mature fashion, I mean, I was just thinking at the time when you were talking through that I absolutely would have shriveled into myself. Yes. After that experience, and you know, you said, like, totally understandable that you you dropped your hobbies and were having a very difficult time after that experience because anyone would, in my opinion.
Emily:
And yeah, I mean, I I take your point absolutely about not wanting to judge that person and, you know, my understanding of psychology now I'm not qualified, but it does sound like it was, yeah, some of his own issues. And this is where training and I actually think emotional intelligence training would be really beneficial for a lot of, you know, I think for PhD students, it would be great. And I mentioned it on Twitter the other day and another faculty member said, Oh, I think supervisors need this too. And I do agree. I think if it was given from early stages of training so that then those skills could be taken up into the higher levels, that would be great. But short term, I think honestly, anyone within these very stressful environments and I mean, not just in our industry, in other industries as well. I think emotional intelligence training would be would be very, very beneficial. I'm really happy to hear that you had support from your family. You know, I. Didn't really, but I was lucky to be able to get some financial assistance to get support from a therapist. So there are lots of different places to go for that support, and I'm really glad that you had a supportive family.
Kartik:
My point is exactly this. Some of us have a supportive family. Some of us may not have a family or some of us may be living in a very distant place in a different country. But irrespective of what our circumstances are, we should get support. Just being students, we are students and every student needs to be supported emotionally, psychologically, financially. The sort of support is a must for every student in every country of people because the circumstances differ. The family, family situations, the environment, everything is going to be different. But the support that we have, if everyone has the required level of support, they will be able to overcome their challenges. At least it'll be easier for them.
Emily:
Yeah, I definitely agree. And I mean, I know universities do have supports in place. They have, you know, wellbeing services and disability support services that we've spoken about in previous episodes. But whether you know those are visible to everyone, whether they're accessible to everyone and whether they have the desired impact, I think is potentially a question that potentially questionable. And that was the other point that I wanted to touch on was that, you know, you went through this official process of reporting this person, but really didn't get, you know, much out of it. And that's something I actually only recently became aware of. Like I said, I'm very fortunate that I haven't had to go through that process, but this was discussed in the Minds conference last year, so that was an international conference for mental health of academics. And it did come up that, you know, some people had tried to report some of their own experiences and. It hadn't really gone anywhere, or they had been asked to prove, you know, what they experienced, they weren't taken seriously. So it seems like, you know, there are sort of policies and processes in place to help with bullying and harassment, but in practice that perhaps not functioning as they should.
Kartik:
Yes, that was certainly my experience, and I've seen that more than addressing the issue. Many universities, they just tried to wash over the situation. They just tried to avoid taking blame or taking the responsibility because that would involve them to take action against the professor, which they're not ready to do. So the easy way out is to just give an assurance to the student that it won't happen again and just just sort of hope that it becomes a non-issue. But that's not what university should be doing. They should realize that every student is a human being who needs love and care, and they should actually provide support to every single student. That should be the real name. And in case of any serious issues, the right procedures should be followed. It shouldn't just they shouldn't just blame the victim. They shouldn't just try to sort of ignore the situation. They should actually take concrete steps to ensure that such behavior never happens with anyone, and everyone gets access to good support.
Emily:
Yeah, I absolutely great, and hopefully we will see some shifts in that area as well, and I guess we'll maybe talk about some of your suggested, you know, shifts in that area in the next episode as well. And and again, you know, I'm just so sorry. You know, to hear that you had that experience and it really wasn't addressed in the best way. So the final question that I had was, yeah, around the impact that this had on your research. So this faculty member was quite a strong knowledge support for this area of research that you and your supervisor, you know, didn't have a lot of knowledge in at the start of your Ph.D.. And so this faculty member had been brought on board to provide that. So then when you had to end this collaboration because of that behavior, what kind of impact did that have on your research?
Kartik:
So at that point, I was just happy to end the collaboration and it felt liberating by itself. But then I just came across in our area. That's a very good community called ISMET, International Society for Microbial Electrochemical Technologies. And I just came to know about this, and there were quite a few researchers who, who I contacted outside my country, and they gave me lots of advice. It was just over email and just over a Skype session, but I was very happy for that opportunity where I could contact other members from my area. Some of them are really helpful and that sort of gave me some support professionally. And it took me some time to achieve all my research objectives, but I was comfortable doing it in an atmosphere where I was feeling comfortable. So that was the most important thing. And eventually, I did manage to complete my degree successfully with.
Emily:
Yes. Congratulations. I know that because you're a post-doc now, but yes, no. But I'm so glad that, you know, it didn't have a huge impact on your research and that you were able to find, you know, research support in other areas. That's that's really fantastic.
Kartik:
Yeah. So from what I have learned, it's just that mentoring plays a huge role. It doesn't matter what lab in what the resources are, they do matter to some extent. But more important than that, the psychological support, the emotional support, empowering the student, these sort of things are actually going to make a huge difference in anyone's project. That's what I feel.
Emily:
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I absolutely agree. And I think that's probably a nice positive note to end this episode on, and it really leads us nicely into some of the support systems that we'll talk about in the next episode. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap this one up?
Kartik:
No, that's it from my side.
Emily:
Ok. So yeah, I mean, like I said after you shared a lot of your experience, you know, I was a bit speechless for a minute because I just can't imagine having to go through that and it. Breaks my heart that there's so many, not just students, but academic staff that deal with this on a day to day basis. So I really want to thank you for coming forward. I know it was difficult for you to talk about, but I know that there will be people that will be listening that will be so grateful to you for having helped them feel less alone and less like, you know, it's their fault because I know that's something that people can, you know, people can interpret it that way and also be able to see some of how you manage that situation. So I know our listeners will really appreciate it and I do too.
Kartik:
Yeah, thanks a lot. I'm really happy to share my experiences on the platform where I feel supported, which strives to make lives better for young researchers. So thanks a lot to Emily and your wonderful team.
Emily:
Thanks, Kartik. So if anyone listening would like to get in touch with Kartik and if anything, he said has resonated with you. He's available on Twitter @KartiksAiyer, and he also writes a science blog, so you might be able to see some more of his writing there. So that's KartikSciCom.Blogspot.com/ and those links will be in the episode description to you listening. As always, thanks for listening close to the end. Stick around for details on how to share your own story, and I look forward to having you back in a couple of weeks to hear the next part of Kartik's story. He'll talk us through how he learned to manage his mental health in, you know, quite a toxic environment, and also some of his suggested solutions to improve mentorship and supervision within academia. Before now, before you go, we have some support resources and information for how you can share your own story. If this episode brought anything up for you, there are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at www.CheckPoint.org.com/Global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.VoicesofAcademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely Voices of Academia team member Daniel Ranson..
Emily:
This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci, but I'm part of the larger voices of Academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form, with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe! Tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.VoicesofAcademia.com. To sign up if you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student ex-academic or any other type of researcher. Follow @AcademicVoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website. www.VoicesofAcademia.com. For details on how to share your story. It's time someone gave you a voice.
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