Ep26_Challenging Intrusive Thoughts_Dr. Andy Fraass.mp3
Ep26_Challenging Intrusive Thoughts_Dr. Andy Fraass.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep26_Challenging Intrusive Thoughts_Dr. Andy Fraass.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hey there. These are frank discussions about mental health and illness. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support if you need it. Today we return to Canada with Dr. Andy Fraass, a micro palaeontologist and tenure track professor who opened up previously in episode 25 about social anxiety learning. He couldn't trust his own self perception and the impacts of academia on family life. Head back to have a listen to the first part of his story before continuing here today. And Andy shares how support for anxiety comes from his wife and daughters, improved sleep hygiene and challenging intrusive thoughts.
Andy:
The way I conceptualize it is I have a hypothesis. That hypothesis is that I'm bad at getting money. I've got valid data. And that says that I have gotten money in the past. I've gotten money through people that didn't know me before I applied. That invalidates this hypothesis, which is really the stereotypical scientist. Right. But that that's it. It is helpful, right? It's comforting to try to remove the emotionality out of it because I know that that's very loaded for me. And just look at it in terms of this like raw data analytical kind of framework.
Emily:
If you're not already aware, the podcast now has a donations page, which I hope will eventually assist me to hire an audio editor and compensate our guests for coming forward. I'd like to sincerely thank Dr. Rachel Woods Robinson for her recent, very generous donation. It really blew me away to have someone I've never interacted with find the podcast cathartic and inspiring enough to support it, particularly after only recently completing her PhD, which we all know is a terrible financial time. Thank you. If you're listening and you'd like to join the podcast supporters head to Buymeacoffee.com/VOApodcast. Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. It's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this is lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma, and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it.
Emily:
Hey, Andy, welcome back to the podcast.
Andy:
Well, thanks. I'm glad to be here again.
Emily:
So as I mentioned in the last episode, we know each other because you first of all, A, you're a listener, which is awesome. And also you came forward a couple of months ago. So it's November now and you came forward in August indicating that you had just started to open up about some of your experiences and you wanted to share them on the podcast. And I do wonder actually whether that kind of coincided with your getting this tenure track position. Is that kind of the point where you felt like it was maybe more possible for you to open up?
Andy:
100%, yeah. That was easily the inflection point. It was. I mean, yeah, it was because I got the position. I felt more comfortable. I felt like I didn't need to. Not that I felt like I needed to hide it or that someone should feel like they needed to hide it. But I wanted to hide it or just not become public about it. Share it with friends or really close colleagues. But. But not sort of publicly. It's easier to do it when you when you know you've got something, right.
Emily:
Yeah. So I guess the follow up question, like, what do you think it is that has made you comfortable to sort of share it publicly now?
Andy:
Oh, I've got a tenure track job and that's that's it. It's, it's that I know I have a job and I know that if a search committee is going to Google me, they aren't going to find that first in my science second or anything like that.
Emily:
Mm hmm. I guess, like I obviously I'm a PhD student and I have opened up about this. And it's interesting because, I mean, for me, I think it was because I didn't feel like I had any other option in my particular experience, because I didn't feel like I could continue with my program unless I was honest with my supervisors because I needed some allowances and I needed some flexibility in order to be able to return from intermission. And so I became open about it. But I definitely when I was asked to include some personal experiences in a blog that I wrote about antidepressants as a sidekick to life, I definitely went through a decision process on Oh my gosh, what impact is this going to have on my career? Do I really want this to be on the Internet? Is this going to impact my ability to, you know, be promoted and and my reputation? And I had to sort of think about all of that before deciding to open up. And it's it's really sad that that that is even a factor. But it's it's realistic to acknowledge that. I think, unfortunately, in the times that we're in. But for me personally, it just felt right. It felt like the right time. I didn't feel super comfortable about it because it was the first time I was open publicly online. I was definitely anxious about it, but it still felt right. And it's it's felt right this whole time. It's it's become a little bit easier every time that I talk openly about it. So I guess it's just yeah, obviously it's a very personal experience and for different people, it's going to feel right at different times and or not at all. And, and that's okay. So Andy, we learned a bit about your life before you opened up about your story in the last episode. And so today I'm going to delve a little bit deeper into that. So you mentioned that you have recently gotten back into reading for pleasure. And so I'm interested to know if there's anything that you're particularly reading at the moment that you're really enjoying.
Andy:
Well, right now I'm reading... I take turns where I read a book that was vaguely associated with my job, and then I read a book for fun. So I'm reading a book by Thomas King right now called The Inconvenient Indian. Okay. So one of the things about being a an American is that I came up through the American educational system. And so I don't understand the indigenous community as much as I should, especially moving to Vancouver Island. There is a prominent Indigenous community and there's also like the university really prides itself in that sort of work and so I'm trying to educate myself about that kind of stuff. The book that I'm generally reading for fun, though, is a series that I read in high school and middle school and I think in elementary school. Really bad old fashioned science fantasy stuff. By Gary Brooks. It's the Shannara series. I stopped reading them in college and then picked them back up. There's a really bad CW show a while ago. It's a fantasy universe that turns out not to spoil anything, but it's actually post-apocalyptic, so the trolls are actually genetically mutations and that kind of stuff, which is fun.
Emily:
That's cool. I haven't heard of it before, but as you might know, as a listener, I tend to like glean book recommendations from my guests. Well, I'll, I'll check it out. Thank you. Because I do like fantasy. With this one, I mean, I think I know the answer by now, but who are you closest to and why?
Andy:
I'm married, so I would be in trouble if I didn't say my wife, but also my wife.
Emily:
And why? Why is that?
Andy:
We have been married for. Oh, boy. 13, 14 years, something like that. And we were together before that. And it's been it's I mean, I love her.
Emily:
Yeah. I don't know what else to say. Yeah, yeah.
Andy:
We've, we are a team. We approach life's problems together and that's it's very helpful. I don't mean to say, like, there's one quick trip to fix your anxiety is to get into a committed, loving relationship with somebody for over a decade. But it certainly helps.
Emily:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I imagine that wouldn't be possible if you weren't able to to manage your own anxiety to a large degree, at least that again, that's been my experience.
Andy:
Yeah, we push each other. So Susanna has depression as well. And so the two of us together, we help watch each other for signs that there are issues, or we help support each other and push each other to do the things that we know will help each other. If I haven't meditated, I've meditated 312 days in a row now. If I haven't done it by like 10:00, she'll go, Oh, you should go do that, because I can tell.
Andy:
About time. Yeah. And that's the kind of skill that noticing that subtle change in body posture or it's a skill that takes a long time to develop, I think.
Emily:
Yeah, definitely. I love that because I'm just starting to develop that with my partner. And now we've been together almost four years and he has pretty hot and social anxiety as well, but is only just starting to learn what some of his red flags are for himself. And so I'm kind of learning at the same time and we're yeah, starting to get to that point of he knows what a lot of mine are and he'll encourage me to do the things that I've indicated are helpful for me and I'm just learning that about him as well. So it's nice to kind of hear that other relationship dynamics kind of work like that to and that it's kind of worked out in a positive way. So the final question is what's at the top of your bucket list if you have one?
Andy:
Oh, God.
Emily:
This one always throws people!
Andy:
I was not prepared for that one! So this is going to sound really terrible. For the longest time it was being a professor, being a professor of paleontology, and that since I was a kid, that's that's what it was. And it was having a family at the same time.
Emily:
That doesn't sound bad to me at all. That, that that's kind of beautiful because it really is made that happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can get me all emotional. No, I love that. That's. That's fantastic. And I guess now, you know, like, obviously we're in the middle of a pandemic, so there's a lot of challenges. And you just started this new professor job. But I'm sure with time, you know, now that you've achieved some of those goals for yourself, I'm sure you will come up with with your next thing. But for now, yeah, I think revelling in having achieved that is beautiful. Yeah. So just a social media shout out for those unable to listen to the end. If anything Andy shares today resonates with you, you can get in touch with him on at macro micro Paleo on Twitter and I'll put a link to that in the episode description. So today we'll talk about some of the support resources that Andy's come across. We spoke in the last episode that he manages generalized anxiety disorder, as well as kind of highly specialized social anxiety disorder. And he's also experienced panic attacks. So you indicated before recording, Andy, that you've at various times done cognitive behavioral therapy, talk therapy, you've taken medication. And yeah, I agree a little bizarrely, as you said. Group therapy sessions for for social anxiety. But you said you found tremendous help from family support system. So I think that's one thing we'll focus on today as well as as you've sort of alluded to meditation and improved sleep patterns. And it's been really important for you to kind of recognize that your perception of yourself isn't necessarily always accurate. So that's something we touched on in the last episode, and I'd really like to kind of focus in on that, how these kind of intrusive, negative thoughts can be overcome and how you've sort of started to do that. So I think you've sort of indicated that is your primary coping mechanism challenging these negative thought patterns. So, I mean, can you share with us what does that look like? Do you have any sort of examples of that?
Andy:
Sure. So academics love to turn something into an intellectual exercise, even when it's an emotional exercise. Right. And so I am I'm really good about beating myself up about any number of things, any any number of things. And so. One of the things that happens after you finish your PhD. So you have to go find postdocs and you have to go find funding. You have to go find fellowships or postdocs or something to keep you going until you can land a tenure track position. And those are really hard to come by. The normal percentage of success is low... 10,15 something like that percent. You've sent out lots of applications and you get very few back as being funded. And so. I did the same thing right plied for lunch. I've also sometimes it's the connections that you make. And so one of the post-docs that I had was from somebody that knew my supervisor, my PhD supervisor. So those are the sort of things that weigh you down, right? Those are things that's standard. But you can also turn back and look at it. And for me, I've had much more success with the finding funding for most PhD projects or post-docs and that kind of stuff then than is normal. I also got two postdoc fellowships once, one through somebody that didn't know me, didn't have this sort of networking connection to me at all. And so using things that were successful kind of helps bring you through. At least in my case, the way I conceptualize it is I have a hypothesis. That hypothesis is that I'm bad at getting money, I've got valid data. And that says that I have gotten money in the past. I've gotten money through people that didn't know me before I applied. That invalidates this hypothesis, which is really the stereotypical scientist. Right. But that's it is helpful, right? It's comforting to try to remove the emotionality out of it because I know that that's very loaded for me. And just look at it in terms of this, like, raw data analytical kind of framework.
Emily:
Hmm hmm hmm. And what kind of encouraged you to start to cope in that way, do you think?
Andy:
Oh, I really started. So after that interview that when I thought bad but actually went well was really when I realized that, like, I can't self perceive very well. Mm hmm. And so that was really the time when I went, I realized that, like, my my operating hypotheses were really wrong. It's also I struggled when I was much younger. It's going to be obvious why. So it is basic self worth, like, am I worth being loved? Wow. That's really a lot.
Emily:
I can relate to that.
Andy:
When I was younger. Right. And. I would go back and look at, okay, I know who like spending time, I know who loves me and that's my parents and my brother and my family. Like, you can check those off and go like, Oh, they have to because they're my family. At least that was the way I thought of it at that time. And meeting my wife and the two of us falling in love really showed me that like I am. Perfectly, you know, capable of being loved and that kind of stuff. And that that helped. A lot. And so it's.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah.
Andy:
That's it's I didn't approach it from that, like, really analytical standpoint. But that's totally what I was doing back then when I realized that same thing.
Emily:
Mm hmm. And so, like, when do you start to initiate that process? Like with grant writing, for example, is it something that you think about while you're writing the Grant's? And do you have anxiety coming up at that point, or is it more after you've submitted it? Like, what's the kind of time line?
Andy:
Once I've submitted, it's done. And it goes out of my head basically because I don't have time to worry about that, because I need to go think about teaching or I need to go think about grad students or something else. Yeah. So it's really like in, in the lead up to submission, especially when submission gets really close. Writing grants, right? You spend so long, you come up with the idea and in the beginning you're really, really behind the idea. But eventually you get to the point where you're polishing and polishing and polishing. You get at least I get super in my head and like, is this even worth doing? Like, I know it is. It's really cool. I think it's really cool. I would totally give all the money, but it's at that point, right where where it's like a week or so before. It's basically also like when I'm about to send it in, which is when the last time I get to make any changes. So it's like this is the last chance to fix the problems that may or may not really exist. Right? So that's really when it gets worse.
Emily:
Okay. Follow up question, I guess, is there anything else during that particular acute period that you do to support yourself around that experience that you have with anxiety?
Andy:
I use a Pomodoro timer. So the Pomodoro timer is when you do 25 minutes of work and then you do 5 minutes off and then 25 and then 5 minutes off. And so when I'm writing a grant, I will a lot of times put on very loud, very angry, very fast music. And that revs up my anxiety. It also makes me work really, really fast. And I have realized that that's really unhealthy, especially for me. And so that 25 minutes, five minute break. That break kind of. It breaks me out of this cycle of ramping up, ramping up, ramping up where I can just through the course of the day. If I don't put it on, then by the time I come home, I am just a ball in like my I can't move my neck because it's so tight and I'm just stressed about about everything but that five minute break where I'm forced to like go and stretch or go get up and take a walk or something where I'm just not at my desk. Typing and typing and typing really, really helps break that sort of build up of pressure for me.
Emily:
Mm hmm.
Andy:
Yeah. Listening to. Yeah, I'm something like blood.
Emily:
Kind of use.
Andy:
A good idea if you.
Emily:
Want me to think about that one. I'm going to double that because I use the Pomodoro technique as well, because I can when I have a deadline, I can work like a full eight hour day and not take any breaks because I'm so anxious about the deadline and I do use Pomodoro actually probably more to help me like meet a deadline because it's like deadlines bring out my perfectionism. So if I have like Pomodoro, I'm like, I have to achieve this within that 25 minute period of time. My therapist has actually recently said for me, that's not the greatest thing because it's actually controlling myself in another way. So my supports are constantly evolving. So I'm interested to hear about what you've used in that period. And like, has that kind of changed over time? Like how do you think your ability to challenge these intrusive thoughts has has kind of shifted as you've started to do it more?
Andy:
It's gotten better, but it's also it's easier because my career is longer, which means I have more data. So the Time series is longer. And so this was not the kind of thing I could do when I was a master's student, because when I was a master's student, I had no nothing to compare against, right? All I had was the current situation and that was it. So I got a lot of migraines from stress and that kind of stuff. It got easier as a PhD student because like I'd gotten a PhD position and that helped. But it still, you know, in order to use that kind of technique, it really it helped to have a longer ish career that had more information that I could mine for like, Yes, you can do this because you have done it in the past, which again, that's maybe not helpful as a grad student, but it's helpful now.
Emily:
Well, I think something that is helpful and I've heard this a little bit is like collecting a folder of like positive feedback. So like I was kind of encouraged to do that actually in my first full time job, but it was more in terms of building evidence for supporting myself, for promotions. But it works in the same way when you're just if you're in a negative headspace and you have this folder somewhere that's accessible from everywhere that you can look at, you know, feedback from students if you're teaching or like feedback in emails from colleagues or supervisors or like any time that you've received something that kind of affirms your abilities can be so great to look at when you're stuck in that negative thought cycle and kind of can't see your self worth, can't see your abilities for yourself because you're stuck in your head. And so I guess that's something that could be useful. At an earlier stage of the career.
Andy:
I had a therapist that also once told me that we are more likely to believe things that are written down. And so she even suggested doing this kind of stuff where I would write out the hypothesis testing and that kind of stuff and with handwritten stuff. And so that that physical folder of that you read your feedback made me think of that, too. It helped reinforce, right?
Emily:
Yeah, definitely. So the other thing that I wanted to touch on, I guess, was the family support. So that came up a little bit in the last episode. I know you've been with Susanna. You said married for 13 years and you were together before that. How do you feel? I mean, I'm sure it's in a lot of different ways, but how do you feel your family has supported you? And I guess the anxiety that comes up for you being within academia, the way that that sort of makes you behave within your family. How have they been able to sort of support you with that?
Andy:
It's really helpful to have somebody who knows you incredibly well and who is able to look at you from the outside that you just completely trust. And having her right, I am able to tell her. Whatever I am thinking. And she will give me her honest feedback because we we have a. Unspoken agreement that like we are completely, utterly honest with each other. And so there's there's a level of trust that is incredibly helpful in that. I know that if I go to her and ask her a question, I will get like honest feedback. It's also she's a supportive person for for me. So she she believes that I can do these things that sometimes I don't think I can do myself right. If I say, oh, should I apply for this, I probably shouldn't apply for this because x, y, z. Right. And she. No, no, no. Would it be good? For your career, then you should go do it. And so there's it's it's somebody behind you supporting you who believes that you can do. Do it, basically, and having that honest feedback of like how how did this go or are. I mean, with the interview that I've talked about a couple of times, she she was. She had a better feeling than I did about it because she thought I could do it. And she was right. I mean, having somebody that is externally watching all of the things that happen is very, very helpful.
Emily:
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. It sounds like she's your biggest cheerleader.
Andy:
Yeah. I think my mom would probably argue that.
Emily:
But you hear them fighting on the sidelines.
Andy:
Dad, too.
Emily:
What about, what about your your girls? I'm interested to know, like, if if there's anything particular that you've sort of felt from them in terms of support.
Andy:
Yeah. So one of them is. One of them is two. The two year old is definitely going through the terrible twos. So she, she, I.
Emily:
You know.
Andy:
Whenever I get a hug from her, it is just the the absolute best thing ever. There's another there was a day ago where I got like eight a day and it was just the best because usually it's zero.
Emily:
I love that.
Andy:
So the older one, so when I was when I was a PhD student, I took her to work with me in the lab and I would like do research I would pick for him. So we look under a microscope and use a paintbrush to manipulate these tiny fossils that are like the size of a period on a page. And so I'd be doing this very repetitive, very boring, very meditative task. And in the other hand, I'd have a bottle of milk and I'd be feeding her. And so there are pictures in like the departmental calendar of me doing this. And so we have always been really close and having them. It opens you up. Becoming a parent makes you you feel more emotions, right? Your highs are higher in your lows or lower. I've never been more frustrated than when like one of them wouldn't sleep. And it was like two in the morning. Please, please sleep. But it makes you appreciate time. It. Yeah, it's it's hard to. It's it's absolutely hard to explain. It makes me want to do better to. To figure out how to. Not get I will never be done with anxiety like, oh, I'll I'll have this. But it makes me want to figure out how to manage it better, to be a better parent for them in case they have any part of this depression, anxiety, or more specific things. Makes me want to figure out how to manage it for myself so I can help them manage it later. Plus, there's nothing better for anxiety than like your daughter looking at you and giving you a hug. Saying, Dad, I love you.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. It's it's really nice to actually talk to a father about how his family makes him feel, because I haven't really honestly, I haven't really done that very much in life, let alone at all on the podcast. So it's it's just really nice to hear like what kind of support can come from that for people that are within academia as well. Because it's, yeah, it's, it's really something that we haven't touched on. And I think I know you said it's hard to describe and I can't understand that because I don't have children myself. But I think that was really insightful what you just said. So I do appreciate that. So we are pretty close to the end of this episode. So I wanted to know, I guess we have spoken about medication on the podcast before, so I might not go into that too much, but there were three sort of extra parts here that have helped to support you, and I might get you to comment maybe with just sort of a minute on each one, if you can, just so that we can at least acknowledge them. So the first one was that you think it's really important for supervisors to be understanding and forgiving with students. And I think that, yeah, you indicated before recording that that was based on sort of your own experience as a student. So could you comment sort of briefly on that?
Andy:
When I was an undergrad, the first time I worked in a lab, I set a fire accidentally, and I realized that this was because I was too anxious to go and ask someone where the proper equipment was to go take this beaker off of a hot plate. And so.
Emily:
Okay.
Andy:
We're all dealing with all sorts of issues, be it mental health issues or whatnot, and it's not always okay to be public with them. And so it's easily possible that someone is doing something absolutely ridiculously stupid because of for a very valid reason. I mean, there is no reason to take a beaker off of a hot plate with a set of paper towels. But I was doing it because I was having severe anxiety about not knowing where this one piece of equipment was, so being extra forgiving of everybody. Because you never know who has this problem without being public about it. Right. It's really important.
Emily:
I guess just a quick follow up question. What do you think a supervisor could do in that situation to to make a student feel more sort of understood and more comfortable to come to them?
Andy:
I mean, being open about your own issues or. I have no idea.
Emily:
I think, honestly, like I agree. Like being open, like I and we've sort of spoken with some previous guests about this, particularly Viviana, whose episodes just came out, but just how much I value people in positions of power being open. And I feel like it's something that's probably quite difficult to do because you can feel like maybe it's unprofessional or something like that. And certainly when I do it with more junior students, I feel like I get a bit worried that maybe I'm oversharing or, you know, maybe they're not going to have the kind of trouble that I did. But I kind of do it anyway because I feel like often people that are more junior, they sort of don't necessarily know what to ask or how to ask or and I just feel like if I can open that line of communication from the very start because I feel comfortable doing that and I've become more comfortable with being vulnerable, it, it, you know, maybe I'll embarrass myself, maybe they'll think less of me, whatever. It doesn't matter to me because it's important to me that I open that line of communication. So. So I definitely agree with what you said.
Andy:
Yeah. I mean, that's that's the way I do it now. I have I have a grad student who's who is great. And the way that I'm I'm trying to do that sort of pastoral care is by being open about the fact that I feel anxiety and have had these issues. And it's also kind of obvious because she's also on Twitter and so I'm talking about it on there. And yeah, just having those open conversations and saying, you know, it's okay if you feel this. I have felt this in the past. It's also okay if you don't feel like this. Right? So yeah. That is the way I am handling it now.
Emily:
Yeah. Yeah. With group therapy. So yeah, I'm sure a lot of other people that manage social anxiety would that would sound like their worst nightmare. I mean, how did that I know you said that was quite a while ago, but did that benefit you like and if so, how?
Andy:
I have no idea. I mean, so it's it's exposure therapy for people with social anxiety. Right. So putting you in a group situation and having you like act out what it's like to stand in line for a keg. I was an undergraduate at, oh, very heavy drinking college. So totally a.
Emily:
Valid thing to do.
Andy:
That's what I remember. Okay. But basically, it was it was putting us in this situation and saying, you know, okay, here, what do you do? And what I the thing that I remember is doing that like exercise, where pretending to stand in line for a keg. And I was supposed to make small talk with the person in front of me, but she was pregnant and standing in line for a keg. And so I said, Oh, are you sure you should be doing this? Which was funny because she was pregnant. And so they said, Oh, you're very funny. And so that's the only thing I remember, except that it was incredibly difficult to like. It was not incredibly it was it was very difficult to go through that. And I spent a lot of time going like, wait, wait, this person is obviously not doesn't struggle with social anxiety because they're having this conversation and they're seem like they're doing fine. It's like I was doing the same thing. And so looking back on it, it's, oh, you can it's more clear the sort of lessons we were supposed to be getting from them. But, man, it was it was tough.
Emily:
I can imagine. And the final one is so so I'm personally really interested in this. In terms of improving your sleep, you mentioned that your anxiety can get a lot worse when you're not having as much sleep. And I guess first question, because I need to sleep like nine or 10 hours a night, otherwise I'm a mess, whereas my partner can like function very, very well on five or 6 hours of sleep, for example, I guess how much sleep do you feel you need, first of all, to help manage your anxiety?
Andy:
Oh, let's see. I don't think I've actually ever clocked it at, like a specific amount of time. It's about, what is it, 8 hours or so between between seven and nine, I would guess, a night. It depends on if I'm I'm doing my I also bike commute, so getting exercise is pretty helpful. So but that's like a 40 minute there and 40 minutes back and he's been been very helpful. It's sort of lowering your your amount of energy so that your fight or flight response is not quite so strong through exercise is also pretty helpful I found. But so yeah but like 7 to 9 hours.
Emily:
Okay. And so if you're in a period where perhaps your daughters are having trouble sleeping and you're getting less sleep or you're getting less sleep because of kind of work pressures, how do you sort of try to manage that and try to improve your sleep when you really, really need it?
Andy:
So I've had a hard and fast no work after eight rule in my house since I was a PhD student. Because if I work too late then my mind just goes and goes and goes and goes and goes. So that's a hard.
Emily:
Cutoff.
Andy:
Know I don't break it. I also for a long time during the pandemic especially, I had a sleep routine where I would play games for play video games because that's one of the ways I unwind until this specific time of night. And then I switched to playing Minecraft where I would, which I used to play with Jane really frequently. And so I'd go do stuff so that she would be surprised when she she started something up on the weekend as like a surprise. And so there's but I found that to be a very calming like almost meditative repetitive task kind of thing. So she had more building materials to work with. And then I would read comics while listening to like rainfall or campfire. It's something very simple that helps you slow your brain down. So like juvenile power fantasies are really helpful for that. So Marvel and DC Comics and then I also listen to Sleep stories on the Calm app. So this you basically put on a story, somebody talks to you about the Orient Express and the different locations that it goes through or they read. The beginning of Robert of Treasure Island is another one. And so I would listen to that until I lay down, listen to that until I yawned, and then I turn it off and turn over and go to sleep. And that helps me slow the sort of ramped up. That I have to the point where I can fall asleep quicker. It's not something that I thought was a problem until I started cleaning up my sleep hygiene and realized that it was actually a problem and that it was way better once I started doing that.
Emily:
Mm hmm. And, yeah, I can relate. So I listen to one called the Sleepy Bookshelf on Spotify. Sleep stories before going to bed. But yeah, it sort of sounds like you have a pretty good sleep routine where you're progressively calming your mind as you get kind of closer and closer to bedtime. And I guess I just have one final question on that is so I don't know if everyone feels this way, but if I'm extremely anxious, I will be and have a deadline or something like that, it'll push me to to. Overwork because I'm concerned about meeting that deadline and it being good enough because I also struggle with very intense perfectionism. So I would be I would be very tempted to break my limits on working. I Yeah. So I would work extra, I would work later and perhaps not give myself those same kinds of breaks. First of all, do you experience that? And secondly, have you found anything that sort of helps to counter that anxiety that kind of drives overwork closer to bedtime?
Andy:
Yeah, I mean, so there are two things. One, I, I have a spouse who will reinforce that this is a rule you're really supposed to stop now. Okay. Okay. Yeah, okay. I will stop. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, I will stop right now. And so that was a problem earlier on. But this has been a thing for me for the past, like ten year. No, yeah, no. Like closing in on ten years. And so it's like a it's a formed and hard and fast habit at this point. The other thing is I recognize that like the work that I do if I'm overworked, really sucks. It's just not good. And so I will do much better if I take care of my mental health and and if I sleep right, if I take breaks. When I was finishing my PhD, there were lots of six and a half hour days and that. The stuff that I finished up. I ended it. Once I turned in my dissertation, I had to fix some, know some of the writing because it just wasn't as good as it needed to be. And that was because I was overworked and didn't have the time to make those deeper connections that come when you're not working. And so it really it was incredibly helpful to have to really follow that, like those habits and recognize that like when it's time to be done, it's it's better to be done because you can do better.
Emily:
After a break. Yeah. That's such an important lesson. I think I'm still learning that one, but I think I don't know if you agree with this, but I feel like in earlier parts of education, where kind of there's positive reinforcement for working extra at that level, but then kind of once you become more senior and getting into a PhD and within academia where the the level of work required just exponentially kind of increases, I mean, I still feel like there's positive or positive reinforcement for working harder, but like we may be more likely to experience negative impacts of that. That would maybe cause us to sort of question that way of behaving.
Andy:
I mean, there's also when I was younger, I could pull an all nighter and that would be okay. I'm 38. I can't do that now. I would be just toast the rest of the day.
Emily:
So it's.
Andy:
Like my body doesn't.
Emily:
Yeah.
Andy:
Wouldn't be able to handle it, but. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things that I'm I'm trying really hard to do myself, because I want people underneath me to recognize that it's having these healthy, like life work balance is really important and trying to model it myself so that my students recognize that I value it. So they should value it too, right? We all replicate some part of our supervisors. Right. And that's one of the things that I would I would love for my students to replicate is like having life outside of.
Emily:
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy:
Family is also really good at. Meaning there would be life outside of work because there has to be life outside of work.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's probably a really good note to finish on as well. Just acknowledging that, being that kind of positive role model of, you know, work life balance as much as you can, I guess, in a way that can sort of maintain your personal health, whatever is required for that. I have to admit, I haven't really had that modeled to me all that much and. I just think that that's so, so beneficial. So, again, I just want to thank you for coming forward as a, as a man, as a professor, as a father within academia. I think a lot of what you've said today is is going to resonate with a whole host of different people. I'm a younger student. I'm a female, and I don't have a family. And yet I've found so much of what you said today really, really helpful for me. So thank you.
Andy:
Well, thanks. I, I really appreciate the opportunity that you gave me by by having me me on. And I'm. Yeah, I really appreciate you guys having this podcast. I would have really benefited from it when I was a graduate student. I think and I know the past ten years or so have been really good for lots of people coming forward with with mental health stuff. And so it's, it's really nice for you guys to be continuing the sort of push towards destigmatizing and normalizing conversations like this. And I'm really happy to have taken a tiny part of it. So thank you.
Emily:
Yeah, and thank you for being a part of it, Andy. I'd love to keep in contact. So now I know you're on Twitter @MacroMicroPaleo, so I'll follow you if I haven't already. But yeah, to you listening, that does bring us to the end of today's episode of Voices of Academia. Thanks as always, for choosing to share some of your time with us. I'd love to know what part of Andy's story spoke to you. Let me know on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science. Otherwise, I look forward to having you back with me again in a couple of weeks. Bye for now.
Emily:
Before you go, we have some support, resources and information for how you can share your own story if this episode brought anything up for you. There are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries at WW w checkpoint org dot com forward slash global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely Voices of Academia team member Daniel Ranson. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me Emily, with support from some very special people in my life.
Emily:
You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories, please leave a review. Subscribe. Tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the voices of academia, blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, doc, student, ex-academic, or any other type of researcher, follow @AcademicVoices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. For details on how to share your story, it's time someone gave you a voice.
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