Ep18_Panic as a PostDoc_Dr. Viviana Re.mp3
Ep18_Panic as a PostDoc_Dr. Viviana Re.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
Ep18_Panic as a PostDoc_Dr. Viviana Re.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Emily:
Hi, everyone. Today we talk about panic attacks. Please be mindful if you continue to listen and reach out for support, if you need it. Today, we traveled to Italy to meet Dr. Viviana Rey, an assistant professor in the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Pisa. Viviana holds a PhD in analysis and governance of Sustainable Development. Her research interests include hydrogen geochemistry of groundwater contamination, isotope techniques for monitoring groundwater, desalinization and geochemical processes occurring in contaminated aquifers. During our discussion, Viviana opens up about experiencing panic attacks during her postdoc and how they restricted her personal and work behavior.
Viviana:
When you feel physically is such a strong sensation, it's like a lot of things that happen in just one second, probably the trigger. And then I felt like I could not breathe properly as I felt like pain in the chest and then towards running super fast, super, super fast. So the first thing I did was to call a friend and say, please go to the emergency. Then we went to the private clinic and then the lady. When I arrived, I said, No, you are OK. It's just stress. It's just anxiety. But then they made all the controls and actually, luckily I didn't. I wasn't having a heart attack. And then I start reading a bit about the feelings and the what I can tell is that I it's completely different from the all the kind of anxiety episodes that I had before.
Emily:
Welcome to Voices of Academia with Emily King. It's a podcast where researchers from around the world open up about their mental health. They might laugh, cry or say things you disagree with, but this has lived experience, not professional advice. We cover some sensitive material, but it's worth it to normalise difficult conversations, reduce stigma and help people feel less alone. Let's get into it. Welcome, Viviana, to the podcast.
Viviana:
Thank you.
Emily:
So I guess we met because you came forward to share your story. Actually, after our very first post on the voices of academia Twitter back in October of 2020, when we mentioned that we were going to start a podcast. So I do want to thank you for your patience. And I wanted to ask you, I guess, why you would like to share your story with us today.
Viviana:
Well, again, thank you for hosting me and thank you for this first question. I think I felt the need somehow to share a story because I I see in academia there are so many stories that are untold, but such is the experience in the lives of people and also was also seen, for example, in Twitter when talking about mental health in academia. There were many, many stories about PhD students, or whether from PhD students, master students and less stories from seniors, let's say, like postdocs or professor or assistant professors at my case. And I think that we will, I hope, maybe like sharing my experience. My story could encourage others to do so and show that you can feel weak and still build science. You can have issues and do a great job. So being open to the fragility you may experience to the dark side that you may experience in your life doesn't make you a bad scientist and actually or bad person in academia, and actually can help students to feel more Liston. And well, so that's why I wanted to do. I proposed to share my story because I hope this would encourage others to do so.
Emily:
Yeah, and I really appreciate that because that was something I was sort of aware of at the start of releasing episodes as well, that I was focusing a lot on PhD student stories because that's kind of what was coming forward. And I think it's so important to share a diversity of stories. So I do really try to actively seek that out, whether that's the type of experience or the level of academia that someone has raped. So, yeah, I thank you for that because we've actually we've now had quite a few like assistant professors coming forward, and it's really great to see more senior people opening up because I think that provides really fantastic role models for younger academics sort of coming through. So I guess the other thing was, I know we're going to touch a little bit on female stereotypes during today's discussion. So it's kind of a similar question, but more specifically, how you feel your identity as a woman has perhaps encouraged you to share your story, too.
Viviana:
Yes. Yeah. It has also part of what I'm going to talk about today. It's related to that. I think at some point I realize, like very recently, the last two years or so, I start reading more about like eco feminism, trans feminism, et cetera. So and also being part of working group related to gender issues in water science. Open a new vision to me. I don't know. Probably encourage me to embrace more my female side that I probably put aside in pursuing, like scientific career in in academia. I think I gave more space to my male, let's say, part and part of all this process and dealing with some, let's say mental issues give more space to the more, yes, let's say female energy that we all have and I have, of course. And so all the feelings, the things that I wanted to hide because being too sensitive or to empathetic or to these or to death, actually, the moment I realized that it's part of me that can and I like them. So I really don't know if that makes sense, but I kind of accepted myself for that and then I felt like sharing it.
Emily:
Yeah, no. It makes sense to me. I have done a very similar thing through my career, so it's going to be interesting to hear it from someone else's perspective. So if listeners sort of find something that you're discussing today that really resonates with them, where can they find you on social media?
Viviana:
They can find me on Twitter that I use a lot of work, and I'm starting also recently to share some thoughts on mental health in academia. And the name is bitterness that comes from the Twitter account that I made when I was doing my postdoc in the Marie Curie Fellowship. I stayed two years in Tunisia. And actually, bitterness means the well of people, because I started working on the inclusion of the social dimension into other geochemical or geological assessments. And the funny thing is also that it's actually in that period that I started having panic attacks, which now I see all a part of sort of, let's say, coincidence or I don't know how to call them. That actually made me realize the importance of embracing those feeling, embracing those dark moments, etc. So actually, yeah, it all started with this post up. So that's also part of the name. And there is a blog actually talking about the experience and part of the work that is called again, bitterness. So you can find me on Twitter mainly.
Emily:
Ok. And that's spelt BIRALNAS, and we'll put a link to that in the episode description as well. So, yeah, I mean, again, I just want to thank you for coming forward to share your story today, particularly at this time. We were speaking before recording about some of the impacts that the pandemic has had on both of us. So I guess I just wanted to ask you, I mean, how are you given the pandemic and everything that's kind of going on right now?
Viviana:
Well, I think I'm OK. I'm in a period, I think where I'm having a strong sensation of personal growth. So I have up and downs and the last year and a half has been really tough for many person. Unintimidated reason. But now I see that things are getting better. And also, I think all this situation really was a good reminder to take care of ourselves and not push too much for like work or perfectionism at work. Just try to, of course, respect your duties, the deadlines, but also. The time we spent taking care of ourselves, whatever it could be to Europe, could be sport could be reading happy, whatever. It's really important. It's really precious. And this year, age you started the European Union conference. They had a series of also like mental health sessions that were amazing, and one of the leaders of the session mentioned something that really resonates with me. Like we as scientists, our brain is our tool, and sometimes we forget to take care about that and this is the our most important working tool. So we should really think more about about that. So that's where I'm at the moment.
Emily:
Yes, that's a good point. And look, I know it's a super loaded question, but I kind of like to start with that because I just feel like I can't record these episodes in the middle of an ongoing pandemic without sort of addressing the impacts that it's had on all of us and particularly you in Italy. I know there was a lot in the media at the very start of the pandemic last year, and it's a country that, as I've mentioned to you, you know, is quite close to my heart because I lived there for a year or so. I, you know, I really feel for you, all of you over there. But I am now saying some of the kids that I nanny who are now 18, but they like traveling around Europe and like drinking and stuff, which is kind of weird, but looks like things are sort of opening up for you. I don't know if you feel like that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm sure it's controversial, but you know, hopefully things return to a relatively normal sometime soon.
Viviana:
Yeah, hopefully. Well, I think opening up is a good thing because there are many people that probably suffer too much isolation. And then I think in any countries like domestic violence increased a lot. So there are many, many aspects for which we really need to go out more and to have a proper interaction. Although I hope that what stays in is this the beginning of the pandemic? There was this huge sense of community being part of the community, so we had to deal with something super scary all together. So that unfortunately didn't stay much longer. But I hope that this feeling of being part of a global community, it's something that we can reflect more on also for in terms of actually being kind to each other, but also towards the planet and all the things that are happening in this. Late years, so that's very naive, I know, but
Emily:
I was about to say we can dream the Hulk. Yeah, exactly. So aside from that, I mean, we really don't know each other that well. So I like to start the episode with a couple of questions about you as a person sort of outside of academia. So I wanted to know what's your favorite way to spend a day off?
Viviana:
Oh, I love reading and possibly at the beach. That's my that doesn't happen quite often because of course, I live not so close to the sea. And then the climate is not very summery all the time. But yeah, definitely reading and studying the nature, but close to water. That's the best to me.
Emily:
I agree. I'm an absolute beach bum. Is there anything you're particularly reading at the moment?
Viviana:
Well, I just finished the The Lord of All Things. That's not a very recent book, but I had there and I didn't finish yet, so I restarted again. And I really recommend it because it gives a lot of perspectives and a lot of emotions. Also, I'm ready for the next one, which I still have to decide what will be
Emily:
Ok, what is the lot of small things about?
Viviana:
It's a story about family in India dealing with cultural aspect, a lot of introspection, and it's sort of a love story, but a family story as well. And if you haven't, I really recommend that
Emily:
I actually so I'm in a book club, and I just recommended that our book club this month read a book that a previous podcast guest recommended so yours might make it onto a list in the future as well. I just secretly use these podcasts for my own personal gain.
Viviana:
That's great.
Emily:
So what about what were you like as a kid?
Viviana:
Well, I think probably reading, writing and playing and then change much. Probably, yes, I I used to. Yeah, read also. And playing in the playground, that's the very young kid and then growing up, probably playing volleyball and me too. Oh, you see, and also we have so many things in common, including ours.
Emily:
It's crazy. Oh, oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I was the volleyball captain. And then like continued, But I've given it up now. Unfortunately, a bit of a shoulder issue, but now great sport. Was there anything sort of, I guess, from when you were younger that you can see has been a factor in leading you into research? Or was there something else that sort of drew you in?
Viviana:
Well, I think I always had this love for nature and this feeling that I wanted to do something to protect the planet. And I was really a huge fan of Greenpeace when I was younger. But probably I'm not that brave to do the cruises and those do all the very super brave and strong things they they do. And I think the closest thing to that was starting studying environmental sciences and do something to contribute from the scientific point of view. So I think that was the what brought me to to science and specifically to water. I think I did volunteering three for one month volunteering in Ethiopia in a long time ago, in 2004. That's as many times happens. I think it ended up helping more myself personally than the people that actually was there to was supposed to to help because I I saw probably the first time the effect of lack of water, the lack of access to sanitation and safe facility for for drinking drinking water, especially so. I think that was the moment I decided I want to work in the water sector, so it's a long story of no
Emily:
With no, no, no, I like hearing that because it's because I've obviously read your biography, so I'm aware that you sort of work within water, sanitation and other areas. But it's so interesting seeing the motivation behind things. And you know how much of sort of a personal connection you have to something that I hope this doesn't offend you. I would normally find kind of dry, but now I'm. But now I'm kind of drawn into it because I can see the the impacts that it can have and kind of the personal meaning that it can bring as well. So now I love that. And it does kind of bring us into the next part of your story, into sort of your PhD and then on towards your postdoc, which is really when you've indicated you were experiencing quite significant panic attacks. And I know you've sort of said prior to recording that this led to a lot of personal growth, but I guess first of all, I wanted to ask some questions around the fact that it took you a little while to recognize what was happening, because that's an experience that I had as well. And I think that would be a lot of people that have sort of never heard of an anxiety attack before, never heard of a panic attack before, and if it happened to them, they would have no idea what was going on. So I kind of wanted to ask what you remember about your very first panic attack, if you can?
Viviana:
Yeah, well, I'm not sure. Actually, now thinking back, I'm not sure this is probably the first I had, but I think it was the first I was able to give a name. It was tough. I think he's a very terrible sensation, and I heard I had friends that had mentioned like having a panic attack. But I think when you when you feel like physically is such a strong sensation, it's like a lot of things that happen in just one second probably does a trigger. And then I felt like I could not breathe properly. I felt like pain in the chest and then like thoughts running super fast, super, super fast. So the first thing I did was to call a friend and say, Can you please go to the emergency? Then we went to the the private clinic and then the lady. When I arrived, they said, No, you are OK. It's just stress. It's just anxiety. But then they made all the controls. And actually, luckily, let's say I didn't. I wasn't having a heart attack. And then I start reading a bit about the feelings and the. What I can tell is that it's completely different from the all the kind of anxiety episodes that I had before, like I remember, like before talk, especially at the beginning of my career doing the PhD.
Viviana:
I remember having this feeling like super heartbeat. And then you feel like we can say, Oh, I'm going to faint before going on stage. You take a deep breath and then you go onstage, you give your presentation and it turns out great, and everybody thinks you are super confident, said. So that's the kind of anxiety that I had before and I still have. That is the one that helps you to stay focused and stay centered on what you're doing. I know that may be different for many people, but for me is this I recognize in a way where has the panic attacks is something that frees you. That really makes you. I'm capable of doing what you're doing, thinking in the same way you were thinking it can be very short moment, but it's really the feeling like freezing that you have in that moment and afterwards. It's pretty, it's pretty tough. Hmm.
Emily:
Yeah, because I was going to ask you how you would describe the comparison between a panic attack and an anxiety attack, which you've really kind of answered there. But it's interesting that you mentioned the heart attack because that's kind of I really don't know if I don't think I've had a panic attack before. I think they've probably been anxiety attacks, but I've heard a lot of people describe a panic attack as feeling very similar to a heart attack. So is that how you would kind of describe the average panic attack, do you think?
Viviana:
What year? Probably, yes. Then the especially the first is because it was really a pain here and then the
Emily:
Pain in your chest.
Viviana:
Yeah, this is like sometimes you also have like at least what I had. I'm not a doctor, but I can tell. My experience, of course, is like, of course, like accelerated heartbeat and breathing issues. And then the funny thing is that many times the one of the suggestions that you get is to to breathe and then you will calm down, which it works. But I think my scientific mindset was really set on. Yes, I read, but then I don't solve the problem. Yeah, that was was really like like a positive feedback and getting even more stressed because of that. But then actually, it helps a lot when you feel that you can control your breath and somehow you can go back to the like, take control. But then I start talking to people. But after many years and many, many friends of mine, well, it's not all my friends have panic attacks, but to say to all the people that I talk, most say that this feeling of like, I'm going to have an aftershock, probably. And it's strange because of course you. I never had the nerve to talk before, so I don't know how to recognize it, but from the description of the the symptoms or the feelings that you may have then is the, I think, the closest thing you think you're having. Hmm.
Emily:
Yeah, it would be interesting to know what percentage of people have actually experienced a panic attack because, you know, at least anxiety attacks definitely seem like something that is very, very, very common.
Viviana:
Because when my kids, when I'm anxious, i.e. I'm hyperactive, let's say, so I have this. I need to walk. I need to. So it's more proactive thing rather than the other with the panic attack is more freezing, like stopping everything, but the thoughts are running super fast. And then you like for a few moments, I felt I lost the control of my body and my mind. That's going back to what I was saying is like being a scientist, you you feel you have the control of everything, and then if it happens, then B happens, et cetera, et cetera. And in that moment, you freak out and you don't know what to do, basically.
Emily:
Yeah. So when you were first experiencing that at work, like how did that sort of make you feel and how did you initially handle it?
Viviana:
Well, I felt. Super strange, but I think the first thing was to I was scared. So I think the first thing was like, put myself in survival mode, so. So I went to a colleague. I said, I don't think I'm feeling well, I have been here. And then she said, Oh, maybe you should go and see doctor. And then I called another friend and then he came, picked me, and then we went to do all the testing. So, yeah, I think the first thing was to be in survival mode, then find. A way to to know what was going on.
Emily:
And so I guess like, was this happening kind of regularly during your postdoc or like, how did you sort of manage that when it was happening in a workspace?
Viviana:
Well, I was at the time having like my own office and I was living very close to to the university. I was working. So in that case, when it happened, I was most of the time was alone, so I could handle that one on my own or calling most of the time, my partner. And then I open up it with a family that was living there that became a friend of mine. And through them, I think I told Straight that I had issues, et cetera, I felt safe to to speak with them. So I asked for for help. Like, I'm not feeling OK. I need them. Probably not feeling good, cetera. But then, yeah, there was the big component was like, What if it happened? When is there someone there? What if I'm at work or I'm talking to students or giving a presentation? And that happens. So I think that was the worst part of everything that at the beginning I was more concerned on. What the others would think of me if it happened somewhere rather than taking care of myself, you know, so kind of feeling judged, feeling or being perceived as weak or not capable to handle emotions, you know? So that was the very, very beginning, let's say.
Emily:
And so did it sort of start to have any impacts on your work?
Viviana:
Or a miss, let's say that I think not in the production process. I think I focused on work and so it helped to because at least it was something that I could have the control on like. So the the result? Not really, but the way it was worked. Yes. So it really this idea of fearing that it could happen in any moment because, you know, the panic attacks are they have triggers, probably, but it's difficult to. I was reading and probably maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading that with the anxiety. You can kind of identify the cause of the anxiety attack. Probably what makes you anxious? What has with the panic attacks is not that straightforward. The link, you know? So with this idea of knowing the bad sensation that you can feel when you have it, knowing that it can happen and you kind of do not know when can happen really reduced a lot MySpace, especially in terms of mobility. So I start kind of feeling doing long trips on the train or planes. I didn't stop doing things, but it really affected the way I was doing that. So in some cases, I had periods in which I really they were basic things that I couldn't not do alone like going to the supermarket. That's strange. I mean, it's something super normal. No, let's say something that we all do know. But so I became a bit needy, but I tried to. It's like a split. The things in do so at work. I was the trying to be efficient, always present, etc. And then in the private life, I was really more in the kind of needy, withdrawn, et cetera.
Emily:
I can definitely relate to having difficulty going to the supermarket and riding my bike and rock climbing and driving, and not yet very understandable. So I guess there's a question here as well around sort of female stereotypes because I know you know it, it can be, I guess, difficult to know how to handle things in a work situation because we're often as women kind of expected to act in a certain way. So I I'd be interested to know how you feel sort of being a woman impacted the way that you handled that situation. And if it did.
Viviana:
Yes, I think, well, there's probably one thing that is common to everyone is that we perceive weaknesses that something bad and not something that can like an occasion to grow, to an occasion to be more open to others. So I think this is a perception that affect both or all genders, let's say. But as a woman, especially, I think in steam, I think I always thought I had to act as a man. So to hide, you know, the girly thing that the the female things, the you have to work in the field, you have to work in the lab, you have to so you have to wear comfortable clothes. It's a male-dominated environment, so you have to behave in a certain way. If you, for example, you are too anxious, then the joke is that, yeah, you know, women are like this. Or if you are too sensitive, yes, or if you're nervous, you have the period. You know, there's a lot of jokes that are done. So and I'm saying that because nobody told me, you are a woman working in science, you have to wear these, you have to do these, you have to do that is more like a feeling that you have. I don't know how to explain probably have experienced that too. So it's really there is no one that prevents you to to wear certain clothes or to put on a lot of makeup or to do whatever you want.
Viviana:
But the the feelings that you have drives you to or the reaction you have to. Some situation probably drives you to change a bit your the way you behave. And this does not mean that everyone is doing that or you have to. But because I know people that don't care, do whatever they want, it's probably part of if you are more prone to be impacted by other people judgment, you probably kind of change or hide part of your personality to to stay in the mainstream, probably. And so that's that's one thing. So I think to me was really to even give people that say other occasion to see that I was weak, that I was not capable of. Stuff, you know, so you hide the vulnerabilities to prove that you are a super scientist, you know, you do your productive and there's also these idealization of hyper work not sleeping, being like working many, many hours, much more than the normal working hours because you have to be productive. But we have to be competitive. You have to do ten thousand things, and that idolization is probably part of the part of the problem.
Emily:
Yeah, I can definitely relax. I guess I've never really thought about it as like embracing a more masculine side of me, but I definitely avoid wearing earrings or lipstick or like, you know, nice dresses and skirts and stuff at work because I honestly well, I actually do feel like I get weird looks when I do do that stuff, because it's kind of expected that you'll be kind of pretty bland. And I don't know if that's the same kind of thing, but yeah, I can. I can. I can definitely relate to not wanting to, and I don't think this is sort of restricted to academia. I think this might be in a lot of industries as a woman, but not wanting to come across as being sensitive or, you know. Yeah, any of those things that can sort of be perceived as being weakness. And so it can be very difficult to sort of embrace those parts of yourself and realize that they can be assets.
Viviana:
Hmm. Yeah.
Emily:
So I guess, yeah. So so you had these experiences and I know you said you sort of opened up to to a few friends and you went and got some tests and that kind of thing. Was there a day that you sort of decided to stop tolerating the panic attacks as they were? And sort of the fact that you felt like you were needing to handle those alone in your office and didn't want it to happen in front of anyone else? Was there sort of can you remember, like a time point where you wanted your approach to the situation to shift?
Viviana:
Well, I think it was like a series of steps, let's say so. Because I think many people that I know and even my colleagues, the current and past didn't know that I had these issues. Let's say again, because it's like fear of being judged and then to probably was not ready to give feedback or, you know? But then it happened to I went to a conference and I start talking to people that actually I just met. But I felt safe to open and we start talking. And then they said, Yeah, we also had a talk and then we start chatting. And I think it helped a lot not to feel alone because sometimes if you don't talk to people, then you feel that this only thing is only happen to you. And then you feel that you are wrong, that you are going to have that forever, that you are not going to be able to work as you were doing before, that your life is going to change. The new, you know, is like, OK, I'm a bit melodramatic myself. I think of this feeling was like, Oh no, I'm going to end up alone unproductive. And, you know, I saw the very, very catastrophic ending of of everything. But then I decided to at some point, I decided that I didn't want to just learn how to handle this panic attacks, but I wanted to find the cause and possibly to stop. So that's where I decided I wanted to ask for help.
Viviana:
So I think I went straight to to death rather than sharing to two people and colleagues. But now I think I'm more open to talk, not because of the I'm doing. We are doing the protest, but also with now I feel OK because probably not, OK, but I think there is need to talk about these things to normalize that it can happen, that it's normal to be not okay from time to time or even every day. And especially since now have a position in which I'm supervising student supervising PhD. I think they need to know that there is safe space and if they have, they're struggling with something. They are not alone. There's not just so basically I don't want that other people feel as lonely as I was feeling before is like for me, there would be someone that would judge you, but not everyone. So I think the more we talk, the more we share that even if you are a student, you are struggling with something now with the pandemic, and it's even harder to cope with some things because our lives changed so, so much that I think we need to those who are in, let's say, higher position. I think we should step up and say, it's OK, we are here. It happened to us, or maybe it never happened to you. You're lucky, it's OK. But just be open to listen and to see what we think as a weakness, as just something that happened with no judgment.
Emily:
Yeah, I think this what I'm about to say is potentially a bit of an aside, but I was actually speaking to my partner about this yesterday, about, I think a lot of more senior people, potentially if they've come from an older generation, they feel like it's really inappropriate to share some of those things with, you know, people that are more junior to them. And it might be discomfort or it might be that they don't want to come across as weak or whatever it is. But I actually really respect someone in a position of power that's willing to be that open and that vulnerable. I obviously I can't speak for everyone else, but I just I would never say that as weakness, and I actually wouldn't even I wouldn't say it is inappropriate either, because I feel like it's a form of mentoring. So I agree. I think it's really important if people feel comfortable to open up about some of those experiences. And I guess just on your comment about, you know, meeting some people at a conference and, you know, finding that you had this thing in common that you'd had panic attacks. And you know, it's it's it's almost. It's almost funny, like it's almost in a way it's sort of like brings humor to something that is quite a difficult experience, like the fact that you can connect with not you, just anyone in general can connect with, you know, relative strangers on this experience kind of not trivializes the experience, but I feel like it kind of takes some of the power out of the hold that it could have had on you. And I was thinking about this this morning, but kind of the fact that I really want that to be a message in academia that it's common for these things to happen.
Emily:
But it's not. Acceptable in a way, as in like we shouldn't be. If it's if it's because we're being put in certain situations or certain circumstances that are adding it to extra pressure that are causing these things to happen, then that shouldn't just keep going like that. That shouldn't be acceptable. I want it to be normalized that people experience these things, but also normalized that that we can talk about it, that we can support each other through it, that we can suggest resources for each other that have worked for us or people that you know and sort of provide a supportive framework in that way. And there was one other thing I wanted to say OK, I'm just on the catastrophic thinking. A friend of mine and I, we have this kind of thing where whenever something kind of triggers us and we go down this like negative thought spiral, it's like this is going to happen and then this is going to happen. And then we have this joke where it's like and then harmless because honestly, it just like goes from like the smallest thing that happens just like blows way out of proportion. So we kind of have this joke now to pick up when either of us are experiencing that line of thinking that we're like, Oh yeah, and then harmless, you know, like, it's it's actually never going to happen. So it's just again kind of a way of taking the power out of this, these negative thoughts that can be quite intrusive. So I guess what did you decide to do at that point? So you you said you sort of decided that you wanted to get some support for this? Could you explain kind of what track that took you down?
Viviana:
Well, I decided I want to. Actually, after the two years then I got back to Italy and I started doing yoga in a yoga studio, and I trusted the teacher really, really, really trust her. So one day I felt like I don't just see it wasn't unplanned. I think it came spontaneously. I felt like, OK, that's fine. And probably that's something related to yoga as well. It opens you more to a set feeling and embrace what happens, et cetera. So I asked her if you had some suggestions for the psychologist or therapist and she gave me the name of one, and then I started seeing her, and I think it was one of the best decisions that I took. And actually, I wish I. I went to see her earlier because, you know, in Italian life everywhere, but here still it's changing. But still, if you tell that you go to therapy, the reaction is, Oh, poor you or you cannot handle that yourself. And the answer is no, because again, it's like if we are, as you were saying before, you know, these catastrophic thinking is that if you alone, if you have this attitude, somehow, if we have this attitude, then alone you just go to a positive feedback and feed these thoughts and you may need an external opinion. Which is also not the same, that a good friend that could give you because, of course, as a friend, we can listen to each other, we can support each other, we can be present and listening is probably the most important thing. But we all have our experiences. We all have our biases. So even if I can give what I think is the best advice to a friend of mine that seven issues, this is based on my experience.
Viviana:
So there's my bias on where has an external professional has like it is like science. I mean, you can. That's the same approach. It's if you go to the doctor because you broke your leg. If you have issues related to the mind, you have to see someone that is expert in that field. I think so. So I started and then I went through kind of finding the causes of this panic attacks. I learned how to handle. I know I learned how to accept. As functional to something, and actually it really led me to and is still leading me to to a very interesting journey of, I think, personal growth, that's something new that we can learn ourselves on our self every day. So yeah, that's the thing I did. And then I start to feel more free to talk to some friends about what I was having. But again, it's it's not so easy because in in Italy, that's. Not so common, even though many people because again, when you start saying things, oh yes, I also go to therapy, it's like if someone starts talking and sharing, then you is like all others books out. So and there is nothing bad. I mean, it's again, it's you. You break a bone. You go to. I mean, I went to a doctor because I thought I was having a heart attack. So probably the following consequence was to see someone to help me to understand what was going on in my mind.
Emily:
Yeah, I'm actually going to ask you in the next episode if you felt there were any sort of cultural barriers to going to therapy because I understand that Italy, you know, is a very community driven and sort of family driven society. So so I think that's something that would be interesting to sort of touch on from your perspective. And yeah, I definitely felt a lot of shame when I first started seeing a therapist and I used to I don't even. Like, I was so embarrassed every time I had a psychiatrist appointment as well, and it would just like send me into these spirals for like days afterwards because I was like, I can't believe this is happening to me. I can't believe I'm so unwell that I need to go and see this person and just so much shame. Whereas now it's so weird. Like, I've forgotten what that feels like because I've accepted it and I've normalized it so much for myself now that like, I don't even kind of really think about how someone's going to react. When I tell them now that I go to therapy, I'm just like, Yeah, it's just like a normal thing. I think everyone should go like, it teaches you so much about yourself and about how to manage relationships, all different types of relationships in your personal and professional life. But I yeah, I can. I can definitely relate to those feelings. You know, you experienced early on as well, and I guess we'll talk more about some of the support that you've found for yourself in the next episode. But I guess to sort of final questions for this episode. What do you think you started to learn as you started to open up to sort of some of these like friends and colleagues? And now that you are becoming a little bit more comfortable being sharing some of these experiences?
Viviana:
Well, I think the the first single the biggest question that sometimes probably we fear the judgment of others because is actually our self is correct in English, but we are judging ourselves and that's why we fear that others will judge. So one thing is that if you start accepting yourself like pure like compassion towards yourself, the way you are is the way you are. And then if you want to change something, you can change. If you want to improve, you can improve any aspect in your life. So the moment really, you start thinking that it's OK what you have, it's it's fine. Then you don't fear other people reaction because then when you have, you tell you I got panic attacks, I go to therapy or whatever that you fear people will judge you and then. People have the reaction you expected, then you don't care anymore, it's like it can be if you tell, for example, I go to therapy to someone, it can be either a starting of a good conversation, like a sharing and knowing more about each other, or if that person just you and say, Oh, but you're not able to handle things yourself. You're not a good person, for example. Then you don't care is like, OK, that's the kind of reaction that I don't I don't understand. So it won't affect it. So probably it's a process that you eventually learn to set boundaries and you become so centered on yourself that others people reaction doesn't affect you or you decide who to listen and who to whose opinion you value. I'm not there yet, but I'm on my way.
Emily:
I feel like we're definitely on the same wavelength because I'm going to ask you an episode, a question in the next episode as well about how you decide who to open up to. So just to tie up this episode, I guess you mentioned before recording that, you know, you potentially would do things differently if you sort of had your time over again. And that was in response to learning that I had taken some time off. So I guess what would you do differently if anything
Viviana:
Really would not focus on work as the best take on work only as a reaction? So as I was saying, he was like, when you feel you're losing the control, then you go on the thing you can control. So your work was, to me, the easiest way to not think or try to. At the beginning, I was really identifying myself with the panic attacks. So it's like having this. Then I have this. So I'm weak, I'm not capable, I'm not strong, et cetera, et cetera. So it was really identifying the thing that happened to me with myself, and then I kind of had to prove myself that I was capable. I was strong, et cetera, et cetera. So I basically focused on work until, I think a point I needed to do something different. So probably I would start taking care of myself earlier. Probably. But. Like taking a break and trying to spend more time on. Like taking breaks, let's say not not working seven days a week, etc., etc. were extra hours waking up early, but trying to find a more healthy routine, probably starting doing more yoga on a regular basis, much earlier, etc, etc. So that's the thing that probably but maybe it's all function. So it had to go the way it went and then it led me to this process. So probably it was the way to be. And in the end, I have to say that I say that I'm really grateful for what happened, like those panic attacks because it was the starting of a new process and it hurts it a lot and still does a bit. But it was a starting of something good, so it led to something very positive and more gripping, much more consciousness. So I'm really happy that, that happened, so and it's not the right word, but
Emily:
I know what you mean, I know what you mean and yeah, I mean, I think that's a really hopeful note to kind of end this episode on. So, yeah, I just want to thank you again. We've really not discussed panic attacks on the podcast before, and I think it's really important to sort of dive a bit deeper into sort of what that looks like and the impacts that that can have on someone. So I think that's been really helpful today, and I'm really looking forward to learning a little bit more in the next part to thank you. So just a reminder if listeners would like to get in touch with Viviana. She's available on Twitter @BIRALNAS and also through her personal blog. And I'll put a link for both of those in the episode description to you listening. Thanks for listening close to the end. Stick around for details on how to share your own story, and I look forward to having you back in a couple of weeks to hear the next part of Viviana's story. Viviana will talk us through some of the support resources she's discovered, but for now, before you go, we have some support resources and information for how you can share your own story. If this episode brought anything up for you, there are mental health resources and emergency numbers available for various countries. At www.CheckPointOrg.com/Global. For information found in this episode, refer to the episode description or visit the podcast section of our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com.
Emily:
There you can also access the full transcript of this episode made available by our lovely Voices of Academia team member Daniel Ranson.. This podcast was written, hosted and produced by me, Emily, with support from some very special people in my life. You can find me on Twitter @EKing_Sci for science, but I'm part of the larger voices of Academia team. We have a website, a Twitter account @AcademicVoices and also share stories in blog form, with the option of them being anonymous. If you like this podcast and want to hear more stories? Please leave a review. Subscribe, tell me what you think on Twitter and tell your friends. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and most other major listening platforms. You can also follow the Voices of Academia blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Just head to our website www.VoicesOfAcademia.com to sign up. If you have a mental health or wellness story to share, we absolutely want to hear from you. Whether you're a team leader, research assistant, postdoc, student, ex-academic or any other type of researcher, follow at academic voices on Twitter. Visit the link in the episode description or visit our website Www.VoicesOfAcademia.com. For details on how to share your story, it's time someone gave you a voice.
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